rodar y rodar

I wanted to ask for suggestions on how to improve my plans, but when I stopped to think about it, it occurred to me that I HAVE no plan. I can`t even remember clearly what or how much I ate or drank two days ago! I think that`s why I`ve been having trouble keeping going on long (for me) rides. I`ve read a few of the related threads here before, and did a bunch of googling today that left me with a mind boggling amount of ad hype and technical information that I can`t make heads or tails of. This much I know for sure:

A few weeks ago I rode my first 300k, which ws my longest ride ever. I started fine but at the turn around point (it was an out-and-back) I got a little alarmed because I didn`t pee very much, started slamming water. Then I got water logged, my sloshing stomach wanted nothing to do with food at the next control, and I bonked a few hours later. I finally wandered in to the finish after I sat it out for nearly an hour in the parking lot of a convenience store until I could work down a hot pocket. Two things I decided after that event were to go easier from the start and not to freak out about urine quantity.

Saturday I rode the 400 and it got even worse. To the best of my memory, I ate a bowl of broccoli soup, a baggie of dried fruit, a BIG baggie of gumdrops, a little bowl of raviolis, most of a bagel with peanut butter, drank one bottle of sport drink, one Coke, one Sprite, one can of V8, one 10 oz bottle of apple juice. No idea how much water. I was aiming for one 16 oz bottle of water per hour from the start, but it got screwed up in a hurry. When it started to get hot, I was tempted to drink more, but it didn`t feel good, so I didn`t. Later on, even water tasted so downright nasty that I barely drank any. By the time I drank that apple juice, it tasted awesome, but five minutes later I threw it up and couldn`t eat anything at all, didn`t even want water. That was just before a 190 mile control point- I took a 45 minute nap after that and felf slightly better, but still had to soft pedal the remainder of the ride. I kind of thought I should get some salt into me, but couldn`t choke down any ofthe salty crackers and stuff with my dry mouth, and didn`t want to chase it with any more sloshy water. At the last control (a convenience store), I bought a bottle of chocolate milk and managed to sip down about half of it over the course of the last 30 miles.

Looking back, I`m pretty sure I ate too much sugar and not enough carbs, not enough salt. If that doesn`t sound likely to you, I`m all ears. The drinking thing is really confusing. Even with reduced water consumption compared to the previous ride, I still felt a bit "sloshy" (not as bad), and I was drinking along what seems to be the lower side of general recomendations, so I`d be afraid to drink much less. Again I had low urine quantity, but it remained clear, at least until after dark, when I couldn`t tell any more. From about sundown on, I had terrible dry mouth- brought back memories of pot smokers "cotton mouth" from high school, but I find no references to super dry mouth in relation to sports. While I wasn`t sweating whole lot, I usually don`t sweat much anyway, so not sure what to think about that. Oh, I read today that overhydration will often lead to bloating- I didn`t bloat as far as I know. And as it happens, I did weigh myself when I got home. Down from about 134 to 128.

So, the way I read it, I had signs of both underhydration and overhydration, and probably should have been more concerned about salts than water? Do you guys pay any attention to cravings? The Coke and the apple juice were to satisfy cravings, but I don`t think they were the right answer. Or maybe ANTI cravings? Water from various sources out of the same bottles I always use all tasted terrible. At times I was just rinsing my mouth with it and spitting it back out. And on the sugar thing- is something like a sweet orange, apple or mango any better than candy, or all the same? Anything else?

unterhausen

I don't know how much positive information I have to offer you since I have been having a lot of problems eating. I always have trouble getting food to stay down from 50-100 miles or so, but it has been worse this year for some reason.

Having said that, your list of food is making me queasy right now. I'm definitely on the side that says simple is better on long rides. The likelihood is that you are dehydrated on a long ride, so drinking is good. Not too much at once though. The one time I lost the contents of my stomach on a ride was when I had too much electrolytes relative to the amount of water I had. My appetite goes way down on rides, and so I try to make it count with a mix of fat, protein, carbs and sugar. When that works, it works really well.

chasm54

You sound confused. You can't eat "too much sugar, not enough carbs" because sugar is carbs. However, you can certainly eat too much sugar. And you sound as if you eat whatever comes to mind, without much reference to whats suits you or avoids making you nauseous. I'd suggest you think about what foods you have used that you know agree with you on a long ride, and limit yourself to one or two of them. For example, I know that cheese sandwiches are one of the things that work for me, so I'd take along a couple of them. Then, because your eating patterns seem a bit random, I'd make a point of eating at the rate you can absorb - about 250kcal per hour - from the end of the first hour. Set a timer or something to remind you and nibble your way through them.

With water, normally I drink when I'm thirsty but again, your drinking patterns seem screwed up so introducing some structure may be good. The 16oz per hour strategy is probably a good one; from your account I'm not sure why it wasn't possible for you to stick to that. If you just sip away regularly, rather than gulping down a pint or half-pint at a time, you should avoid the "sloshy" feeling.

Just a couple of ideas.

rodar y rodar

Yeah, it made me queasy too. By simple, you mean the combination or the makeup of individual items?

EDIT: Hi, Chasm- thanks. You posted while I was responding to Unterhausen.
Yes, I do eat according to urges (or availability) rather than by rational thought. My reasoning was mostly based in faith that my cravings would echo my needs, but that apparently isn`t the case. I`ve done a lot of solo mid distance rides (up to a little over 200K) and it doesn`t seem to matter what I eat for those, so where I`m getting into trouble is in the new territory, and I`m just now building up my list of do`s and dont`s.

Your suggestion to count or measure more carefully makes a lot of sense. I`ve read many other suggestions to aim for X calories per hour, but how do you count them up? For foods you carry with you, I guess you can make up a fairly simple cheat sheet, but there`s no telling what you might find at controls or gas stations.

chasm54

Stuff you take with you, just wrap it in 250kcal packages and eat one package per hour. I agree it is more difficult with bought stuff, but processed "real" food is usually labelled with calorie content and it's worth just learning how many calories there are in a can of coke, or a candy bar, or piece of fruit. For example, a medium-sized banana is about a half-hour's worth of carbs, or a bit less. Good source of potassium, too, fwiw. It'll all be an approximation, but absolute precision isn't required.

Steamer

You certainly can take in too much sugar. Too much simple sugar (of a single type, especially) can slow gastric emptying by raising the osmolality of the stomach contents, leading to stomach shut down, sloshy feeling, bonking, and puking. https://jp.physoc.org/content/486/Pt_2/523.full.pdf

Not only do you need to keep it to 250-300 cal per hour, you also need to consider what type of fuel is in the food.

Some simple sugars are fine, but the OP needs to vary the intake. Or possibly stick to frankenfoods like perpetuem.

Machka 

It's really quite simple ...

• Consume 200-300 calories per hour while you ride starting right at the beginning of the ride ... and nibble your food, don't try to down large quantities all at once.
  
• Drink one 750 ml bottle of water or sports drink every 1 to 1.5 hours.
  
• Consume electrolytes regularly ... in food or pills.

[HR][/HR]

Because you're having such trouble, you might want to eat a bowl of oriental (ramen) noodles for breakfast to top up your electrolytes before the ride starts. If that really doesn't appeal to you, try a couple cans/bottles of Ensure Plus.


Then, during the ride nibble on foods like ...

-- oatmeal raisin or oatmeal chocolate chips cookies, which contain complex carbs and of course, calories. If they contain nuts, and if you're not allergic to nuts, even better.
-- salted almonds, which contain all the electrolytes, plus fat, protein, and carbs. Put a bag of them in your bento bag and nibble as the ride continues.
-- beef jerky, which is also full of electrolytes.
-- potato chips or cheesies or similar, which are full of calories and electrolytes.


Find a variety of foods you like which you can nibble regularly throughout the ride ... a variety that is very light on simple sugars. Keep the simple sugars for emergency food. I carry a couple gels just in case, but won't touch them till closer to the end of the ride.


On your rest stops, choose bland foods with a mix of carbs, proteins and fats. Some good choices might be chicken sandwiches, perogies, and chicken noodle soup. Make sure to salt your food ... don't overdo the salt, but make sure you're getting some regularly.

And as for rest stop beverages, fruit juices, coke, ice tea, etc. are good ... but sip them. If you gulp them down, you'll bring them back up. Sit down, nibble your chicken sandwich, sip your ice tea, and relax. It'll aid in digestion.


-- As for electrolytes ... as soon as you start feeling a bit nauseated, take an electrolyte pill with water, and have a nibble or two of your oatmeal raisin cookie.

-- As for the dry mouth ... suck mints. They'll make your stomach feel better and ease the dry mouth. I carry a little bag of mints with me on many of my long rides.

-- As for cravings ... sure, listen to your cravings. Sometimes you can digest what you crave better than other things. But try to keep your choices relatively bland, and nibble or sip rather than inhale.

max-a-mill

yeah definitely sounds like your not hitting your optimal balance. one thing i'd consider is protein. i don't need it until i go really long but if it is lacking my stomach usually start to act like what you describe.

one thing i found real good on a recent ride was KIND bars. they seem to be mostly nuts and fruit with minimal additional sugar. perfect on the go food for me. nice find as all the convenience stores and starbucks on route sold them.

i like breakfast sandwiches with egg for the protein. sometimes burritos... gotta find your power food and if your like me; definitely don't skimp on the protein.

Carbonfiberboy 

You are now entering the realm of the non-obvious. The fun thing about randonneuring for me is that it's a constant learning experience. It's like going to Outward Bound with no instructors. It's all about problem solving, because the only certain thing about a brevet is that you will encounter problems. So much for the philosophizing.

Go to the Hammer Nutrition Knowledge base:
https://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/
Read everything under the headings of Endurance Library and Advanced Knowledge. IME everything they say is true. However . . . you don't need to use any of their products to put this knowledge into practice. You just need to know the principles.

Yes, you ate too much sugar. You drank too much water all at once, and worse, you drank plain water. You ate too much food all at once. You should eat every 15 minutes and never have a real meal, just snack level. You should drink every 15 minutes. You should pee no oftener than every 2-3 hours. 3 hours is fine. "Sloshy stomach" is extremely common. This is the only case when I will definitely recommend a Hammer product: sloshy stomach is quickly cured by taking an Endurolyte or two. In fact, I take at least one an hour. Some people take 6 an hour. Depends on one's electrolyte metabolism.

This is what works for me: I start eating and drinking right from the start, starting at least at the 30 minute mark. I adhere to these two principles - Endurolytes will make you thirsty. You want to pee every 3 hours, which should be about every control. So you take enough Endurolytes to get thirsty enough to drink enough water to generate that much pee. No more, no less. So you don't just drink more water to hydrate, you take more Endurolytes which will make you want to drink more water. I separate my food, water, and electrolytes rather than mix them as many people do with sports drink, etc. I like them separate so I can vary the quantities of each one to suit my condition, level of effort, temperature, etc. This all takes some practice, so I do it on every training ride.

So hydration is really pretty simple. The food thing can be more complicated. You have to eat stuff that you are willing to eat at the rate of 250 calories/hour, which is not a small thing. That's a lot of food over say 18 hours of riding. And you have to mostly eat stuff that will quickly pass across the stomach wall. What I do is I make up baggies of a mix of bulk maltodextrin and flavored whey protein at a 7:1 ratio, 2 cups of powder/baggie. That's 750 cal./baggie or 3 hours each. I put a baggie's worth in one water bottle and fill with water. The other bottle has plain water. I use liter water bottles. Many people buy 6 packs of Ensure or Ensure Plus and use that in exactly the same way. Obviously on a long brevet that can only be about 1/2 your calories because you don't want to carry that much weight or volume. So the rest is sandwiches - cheese, tuna, egg salad, stuff like that, commercial packaged fruit pies, stuff that can be found in a 7-11. I know one rider who eats Hostess cupcakes. Chocolate milk works well for those who tolerate lactose. Whatever.

Other riders will advocate what works for them. You have to find what works for you. However that may be, I've never met anyone that the above didn't work for. Otherwise, eat what you can grab that takes the minimum time to grab and consume or can be eaten on the bike. The less time you spend in controls, the more time you'll have in hand and the more you can moderate your effort on the bike. There is no speed slower than stopped.

Carbonfiberboy 

I should also mention using Hammer products: Sustained Energy flavored with Raspberry Hammer Gel works well. Perpetuem works well, although there are more people who can't tolerate it, especially in the heat. But those products are worth experimenting with. Some people just use Hammer Gel, but I can't tolerate the mouth thing for hours. Some people use HEED in their bottles and eat solid foods, but I don't like that because I like to separate.

ronocnikral

This is why I like a front bag, I can continually feed myself. I've done bread, chocolate milk, hamburgers, french fries etc. I don't do gels very well.

Another thing I am adding to my kit is a small kitchen timer. I'll set it to go off every 15 minutes, and I'll reach down for my cytomax everytime it goes off, even if it is a sip. I rode 100k this weekend, and I didn't touch my water bottles until I reached the turn around point. Fine for 100k. Not fine for longer distances, imo.

I sweat A LOT, so I also need to watch my salt intake. I start with a pretty low sodium diet in the first place, but if you deplete your body of sodium you'll become nauseous and I also get light headed with a touch of the dizzies. and the more water you drink, the more you actually dehydrate yourself. This is why I like french fries from a fast food place. some do electrolyte thingies.

Hydrated

You already have the main problem identified... the absence of a plan to handle nutrition issues on a long ride.

But you're also making another huge mistake: Relying on stores and other facilities as the main source for your food and beverage needs. The fact that you are limited to whatever convenience store food is available in itself means that you can't have a plan for smart eating.

This is an issue that I live with daily because I'm an insulin dependent diabetic. Planning every meal and snack is a way of life for us... even more so for a diabetic athelete.

Machka has given you some golden advice... and I have some practical pointers that may help you.

#1: You need to calibrate your food. In order to make and follow through with any food plan, you must know how many calories you're consuming and how fast you're consuming them. This is a core concept of how a diabetic eats during everyday life, and it translates well to cycling. Break your servings into easily counted units... like 100 calorie baggies of cookies... or whatever it is. That way you can easily account for what goes into your mouth. My favorite trick: Most energy bars are around 250 calories. So you need to eat around 1 per hour. But maybe I want to eat other foods too. Or I want to make sure I nibble slowly over the hour and avoid wolfing down a bar at the top of every hour. I cut the bar into about 4 pieces and wrap them in waxed paper. They go in my bar bag and I eat one every few minutes for a slow steady intake of food. And waxed paper is biodegradable so your guilt is minimized if you drop a wrapper. Liquid food makes it very easy to calibrate your intake... and many people travel that route via Perpetuum or the like. But I find that my stomach starts to rebel at the liquid only diet after about 5 hours or so. I tend to like at least some solid food too.

#2: You need to carry your main sources of food with you... don't gamble that the next Zippy Mart will have the food that you need to keep going. Use convenience stores to satisfy cravings or get something that adds a little variety to the mix, but don't end up trying to complete a ride on stale hot dogs because that's all that you could find. Another reason to carry your food with you... It means that you're prepared for those times when things go awry. As an emergency measure, I always keep two bottles of Ensure in my bag.

#3: Experiment on long training rides. Don't go out on an important event with a plan that you've never tried or with foods that are new to you on the bike. I have some foods that I love but that are suicide for me to eat while riding. Peanut butter is one of those. I love peanut butter with a passion. I'll eat anything with peanut butter on it. But when I'm riding, peanut butter becomes my mortal enemy. It makes me burp and bloat to the point of becoming ill. I don't know why... but that's the sort of thing that you need to know BEFORE you go out and get 50 or 60 miles from home.

rodar y rodar

Oh, my. Well, I did ask for suggestions, and here they are! I haven`t gotten to read it all carefully yet-, but certainly will. Thanks to all of you who offered your views

StephenH

As should be obvious, you get widely conflicting opinions about the "right" way to do it. Of course, I think you should do things my way because it works for me. But, some observations:
-Don't take anyone's advice as to how much you ought to drink. The problem is, larger fatter better-insulated more-powerful people can crank out a bunch more sweat than thinner people, and you may lose more moisture (or less) in a dry climate than in humid, etc. You need to figure out what's right for you, and if I drink twice as much or half as much, so what?
-I've read that if you're not peeing every hour, you're dehydrated, yada yada. By that measure, I've never ever been properly hydrated, even when I was in a swimming pool. The thing is, people are different, and I just can't drink enough to hit somebody else's goal of proper hydration. But it's not uncommon for me to go from morning to mid-afternoon without peeing, and that's without any apparent ill effects from it. So figure out what works for you.
-What works pretty well for me is to have water in a camelbak and gatorade in bottles, and just drink whichever one sounds good at the time. Mountain Dew blends well with Gatorade.
-If it's anything like hot, put ice in that camelbak, too, and that ice water tastes a lot better than lukewarm water.
-I seem to do just fine snarfing food from convenience stores and haven't used any Hammer stuff in a good while. I eat what sounds good, and that varies along the route. Sweet stuff sounds good at the start, after a while, I'm looking for a corndog or something like that, and far enough into a ride, a can of Beanie Weenie can hit the spot.

skiffrun

^
Agree with much/most of what Stephen wrote (I don't do camelbaks, so, obviously, he is WAY off base there ) -- as I started to type, I esp. agree the concept that you can't measure your performance or needs based on someone else's performance or needs.

My basic reaction to the OP is:

• rode too fast
• ate crap, probably with the wrong timing
• hydrated badly
• threw up
• ran out of energy and had to take an hour's rest,
• but I didn't notice any complaints about your legs cramping or feet hurting or your hands hurting,
• you already drew up a list of what you did wrong, and
• you finished the ride, presumably for credit.

So ... what's the problem?
You're on A LEARNING CURVE -- accept it.

skiffrun

OP, I just saw, on another thread, that you finished that 400 in 23h41.
WHAT are you going-on about!?

From that post, I certainly thought you must have struggled to get in at around 26 hours, or a bit more.

rodar y rodar

Yes! A new realm, and I find it very exciting every time I push further than I`ve made it before! I`m also enjoying the problem solving part, believe it or not. I`m looking for some advice here because that was part of how I solved the problems I had a few months ago concerning navigation, cue sheets, and maps. You and others here gave me some good suggestions and comments that put me on te right track.
I know you`re right about that, and I pretty much accept being last (though ahead of 6 DNFs, hehe!), but I`m looking for a bit more. First, I don`t have the nerve to make a 50% jump until I`m more comfortable with the current distances. And, not quite as important at this point in time, I`d be a lot less freaked out by the idea of going into a 600 knowing I had a good chance of being able to sleep a few hours somewhere in there. Since my rolling speed was dropping streadily and my stopped time rising just as steadily for the last quarter or so of this last ride, my cusion was geting smaller in a hurry. That didn`t bother me too awful bad, knowing I was closing in on the end of the ride, but it would have meant no more sleep if I were still looking at another 200K. I want to complete a series next year, so it`ll be more important then.

unterhausen

to address your last point, you should get faster after some sleep, which I assume would be at about 400k.

anotherbrian

The Garmin Edge computers have time alerts, and you can set them to recur at a set interval.

I set mine for 10min, and each time it beeps I take a swig from a bottle of very thick Perpetuem, then chase that with a drink of clear water to clean out my mouth. The swig of Perpetuem is calibrated to empty the bottle in two hours, and the amount of water I drink will vary as I try to avoid a sloshy stomach. That has worked reliably for the first 12 hours on the last half-dozen double centuries I've done. After 12 hours I either keep that up or alternate every two hours with solid foods/Coke/V8.

But a beep, every 10min, and reassessing at the end of the hour if I'm on target, has been key for me. Without the reminder I think I'd crap out on most of these rides almost immediately, as I don't get the hunger sensation until I'm way down in the hole.

Anyone doing the Devil Mountain Double this weekend? Listen for my beeps.

unterhausen

how much perpetuum lasts for 2 hours? I just bought a hydration pack, so I probably will try perpetuum since I've been having so much trouble with eating.

Steamer

Unter - you can mix it up in different consistancies. If you are planning on having a seperate source of water on board for hydration, then you can mix it up as thick as you'd like and pack more calories in a given sized container. Speaking of containers, I am not so sure its a great idea to put something like perpetuem in a bladder. Cleaning could be a nightmare. Warning - Perpetuem spoils rapidly on warm days. Don't even think about drinking mixed up perpetuem that has been in the heat for more than about 3 hours. In cold weather you can go longer. I suspect it's the soy protein content of perpetuem that is the problem. Sustained energy doesnt have the protien, and I hear it lasts longer. Some people find the protein causes stomach problems, and others don't.

To save gobs of money, I bought maltodextrin in bulk and bought my own soy protein isolate at the grocery store (wegmanns has it). So I do my own version of what is in perpetuem. To make a SE substitute, just leave out the soy.

If you want, I will gift you some of these powders, to see how you get along with them, before making the big dollar plunge into Hammer's products.

anotherbrian

Ya, absolutely make it yourself. It's pennies on the dollar compared to buying Hammer's. I mix up two hours worth (520-640 calories total) in a stubby (21oz?) bottle. Any thicker and I found it took a lot more shaking to get it to mix. As it is I fill up the bottle with water, shake ~10sec until it gets to ~2/3rds the volume, then top off with water and shake a little before the first drink. I felt-penned four graduation marks on the side for each 30min, so I can easily tell if I'm ahead or behind.

In the beginning I carried a bunch of baggies with each 2 hour dose, though now that I see the organized doubles around here all use Hammer products, I just start with a bottle of my own mix and carry an extra one in case a rest stop is out. At rest stops I have them fill the bottle with 5 heaping scoops of Perpetuem. If there is > 2 hours between rest stops then I eat solid food that I have in reach.

You can also make your own Endurolyte-like electrolyte mix and add that to your baggies of powder. My notes say it's a 1.38:1 ratio of table salt to lo-salt to get the 4:1 ratio of sodium to potassium that Endurolytes have. For me I use 1g/hour and I add it plus a little Crystal Lite drink mix (0.33g/hour) to the malto/protein mix when I'm packing them all up.

unterhausen

agreed, what I said didn't make much sense. I will have plenty of water in the hydration pack so I can carry some globby mess in a water bottle.

Carbonfiberboy 

No. Sustained Energy also contains soy protein. From the Hammer website:
https://www.hammernutrition.com/produ...-energy-drinks

The spoilage of Perpetuem is more probably related to its fat content. It's also not necessary to use soy protein particularly. I've been using my own 7:1 mix for many years, using whey protein instead. Hammer's insistence that soy is better than whey is not backed up by my personal experience or that of any one else's that I know. That's the only assertion of theirs that I fault. Quite the contrary, more people have trouble with soy than with pure whey protein. I use ON Gold which is lactose-free. I can leave my mixed up food in the fridge for a couple days no problem. I've never had it spoil on the bike. It's even OK the next day if I don't finish a bottle.

I believe that 2 c. of 7:1 malto:whey protein is about 750 calories and mixes up very nicely in a 24 oz. bottle which lasts me exactly 3 hours. One can put even more in a liter bottle. I don't have a really accurate scale so someone will need to weigh it out and see. Both ingredients are 4 cal./g.

I buy my maltodextrin in 50# bags at a homebrew supply house, my whey in 10# bags from bodybuilding.com. Double Rich Chocolate and Vanilla Ice Cream are my favorite flavors. Both SE and Perpetuem also contain various supposed performance enhancers. IME they are bogus.

Do note that Perpetuem does contain fat. I make a special effort to add fat to my diet at controls. There's lots to choose from!

Edit: in cold weather one can get by with just a little plain water in addition to the gump. In ordinary weather, be sure to drink plenty of water with the gump or you'll get sloshy stomach for sure. If you do get it, stop eating, take a couple of Endurolytes and continue drinking water normally. Your stomach should empty within 1/2 hour even if you're climbing.

Carbonfiberboy 

I have an Edge 800. Where's that timer that beeps? I can't find it.