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-   -   Terrible question but can't find an answer... (http://www.bikeforums.net/long-distance-competition-ultracycling-randonneuring-endurance-cycling/886175-terrible-question-but-cant-find-answer.html)

photogravity 04-29-13 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graupel731 (Post 15566195)
I am 6' and it's a 20.

I know that it's a big jump - I wasn't planning to do PBP this summer or the next. You have to start somewhere and I wanted to at least get equipment to begin going down this road.

Interestingly I'm about 5' 9-1/2" and I'll ride anywhere from a 21" to a 23" road frameset, with 22" being the sweet spot for me. I made the mistake of purchasing a Trek 520 in a 19" frame about 3-4 years back and discovered pretty quickly that it was far too small for me, even after putting a longer stem on the bicycle, putting an uncut fork on it and making tons of adjustments. I ended up selling it to a young lady at a swap meet last year and took a huge beating on it. :notamused:

Anyway, I've learned a lot since then and pay considerably more attention to getting a good fit than previously...

hamster 04-29-13 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by photogravity (Post 15566671)
Interestingly I'm about 5' 9-1/2" and I'll ride anywhere from a 21" to a 23" road frameset...

Road and flat bar frame sizes are not directly comparable. As I said above, I currently have a 54 cm (21") road bike and a 39 cm (15.5") mountain bike.

njkayaker 04-29-13 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by photogravity (Post 15566671)
Interestingly I'm about 5' 9-1/2" and I'll ride anywhere from a 21" to a 23" road frameset, with 22" being the sweet spot for me. I made the mistake of purchasing a Trek 520 in a 19" frame about 3-4 years back and discovered pretty quickly that it was far too small for me, even after putting a longer stem on the bicycle, putting an uncut fork on it and making tons of adjustments. I ended up selling it to a young lady at a swap meet last year and took a huge beating on it. :notamused:

Anyway, I've learned a lot since then and pay considerably more attention to getting a good fit than previously...

You are confusing frames built for upright riding and less upright riding (a bike with a drop bar).

Anyway, the 20'' and 19'' numbers are referring to seat tube lengths, which are nearly useless for comparing between bicycle models.

You should be talking about effective top-tube length (rather than seat tube length).

The top-tube length is going to be longer for a drop-bar bike compared to a bike intended to be used with an upright posture.

photogravity 04-29-13 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njkayaker (Post 15566691)
You are confusing frames built for upright riding and less upright riding (a bike with a drop bar).

Anyway, the 20'' and 19'' numbers are referring to seat tube lengths, which are nearly useless for comparing between bicycle models.

You should be talking about effective top-tube length (rather than seat tube length).

The top-tube length is going to be longer for a drop-bar bike compared to a bike intended to be used with an upright posture.

I was not "confusing frames built for upright riding and less upright riding". I was instead using a comparison that had some differences as noted by you and hamster.

I just measured the frame on my Cannondale Quick CX Rigid (a modern upright bar bicycle) and it has a 20-1/2" seattube so, yes, that frame is a little shorter than that of my roadbikes. It is my opinion and some others here that the bicycle that the OP mentions in the other forum is too small for him. As with anything, you can install longer or shorter stems, get zero-setback or long-setback seatposts, high-rise stems, etc. to make other adjustments to fine-tune the top tube length. I have never bothered to measure the actual top-tube length of any bicycle I have bought because for me if the seattube is in the ballpark the rest will fall in place.

EDIT: I later noticed that I stated that I don't measure effective top tube length of a bicycle when I buy a frame. I meant to say actual but incorrectly stated effective.

njkayaker 04-29-13 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by photogravity (Post 15566888)
I was not "confusing frames built for upright riding and less upright riding". I was instead using a comparison that had some differences as noted by you and hamster.

You were replying with numbers from a drop-bar bike to the size that was for an upright bike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by photogravity (Post 15566888)
I just measured the frame on my Cannondale Quick CX Rigid (a modern upright bar bicycle) and it has a 20-1/2" seattube so, yes, that frame is a little shorter than that of my roadbikes. It is my opinion and some others here that the bicycle that the OP mentions in the other forum is too small for him.

It's too small for him if he doesn't want to ride with an upright posture.

I suspect that the typical rider for the Quick is more likely to prefer a less upright position than the typical rider for the Trek 7.2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by photogravity (Post 15566888)
As with anything, you can install longer or shorter stems, get zero-setback or long-setback seatposts, high-rise stems, etc. to make other adjustments to fine-tune the top tube length. I have never bothered to measure the effective top-tube length of any bicycle I have bought because for me if the seattube is in the ballpark the rest will fall in place.

That's nice but the horizontal top-tube length is the important measurement. The seat-tube length is next to useless (you can't use it to compare the size of different models).

hamster 04-29-13 04:01 PM

ETT of photogravity's Quick CX is 58.5 cm. His road bikes' ETT is probably around 56 cm.

OP's Trek has ETT of 56.8 cm. But it appears to have a longer stem that may add 4-5 cm to saddle to handlebars distance, compared to Quick CX.

Don't forget that, when you're riding a road bike on the hoods, the distance from the bar to the hoods may add as much as 15 cm, resulting in a more aggressive posture at the same ETT.

Graupel731 04-30-13 08:31 AM

Just a update, if you care or still perusing this thread.

I went to several lbs yesterday (trek, jamis, and specialized) and after riding a bit on each of their bikes in the price range I was looking at, I settle on the Jamis Satellite. Fit very comfortably and their worker rode with me quite a bit to help with my fitting (stem size, seat height, etc.). I am pleased.

Graupel731 04-30-13 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamster (Post 15567151)
ETT of photogravity's Quick CX is 58.5 cm. His road bikes' ETT is probably around 56 cm.

OP's Trek has ETT of 56.8 cm. But it appears to have a longer stem that may add 4-5 cm to saddle to handlebars distance, compared to Quick CX.

Don't forget that, when you're riding a road bike on the hoods, the distance from the bar to the hoods may add as much as 15 cm, resulting in a more aggressive posture at the same ETT.

Just curious Hamster, with the very limited information you have obtained, what say ETT you would think would be right for me?

The bike store pegged me at 56 after seeing my inseam was around 31 and I am 6ft tall.

Keith99 04-30-13 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graupel731 (Post 15566195)
I am 6' and it's a 20.

I know that it's a big jump - I wasn't planning to do PBP this summer or the next. You have to start somewhere and I wanted to at least get equipment to begin going down this road.

One of the ladies in my local club did PBP. If I recall correctly fenders were required. I'd guess so was a lighting system.

If you have eyes on PBP even in the far future you might want to find out the requirements before getting a bike and making sure the bike can accommodate those requirements.

hamster 04-30-13 12:22 PM

Are you sure it's 31? It's a bit low for a 6' person. If it's correct, I'd say that you're looking for ETT of 58 or so. In practice, it means that you want the biggest frame you can comfortably stand over. For example, Specialized Secteur you were looking at earlier, comes with 58 cm ETT in size 58, but it has standover height of 32.6" in that size, which would be tight with 31" inseam.

Six jours 04-30-13 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graupel731 (Post 15569735)
Just a update, if you care or still perusing this thread.

I went to several lbs yesterday (trek, jamis, and specialized) and after riding a bit on each of their bikes in the price range I was looking at, I settle on the Jamis Satellite. Fit very comfortably and their worker rode with me quite a bit to help with my fitting (stem size, seat height, etc.). I am pleased.

Looks like a fine bike. I hope it works well for you. Make sure to post a picture of you on it so the rest of us can argue about it some more!

Bekologist 05-01-13 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Six jours (Post 15572768)
Looks like a fine bike. I hope it works well for you. Make sure to post a picture of you on it so the rest of us can argue about it some more!

yep, a sound choice of bicycle well suited for la vida rando . Enjoy!

Coluber42 05-01-13 08:09 AM

Looks good! Glad you found something you feel good on! :)

BTW, fenders are not required at PBP, although if you do lots of long rides they will make you a lot more comfortable. At this point there are fenders for just about any bike, even ones with minimal clearance. If you want them, you can get them.

unterhausen 05-01-13 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 15570852)
One of the ladies in my local club did PBP. If I recall correctly fenders were required. I'd guess so was a lighting system.

lights and reflective gear, obviously required. Fenders not required. Never heard of anyone requiring fenders for randonneuring before this thread, and I'm not sure I believe it. My observation is that fenders are in a distinct minority

njkayaker 05-01-13 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 15574626)
lights and reflective gear, obviously required. Fenders not required. Never heard of anyone requiring fenders for randonneuring before this thread, and I'm not sure I believe it. My observation is that fenders are in a distinct minority

My understanding is that fenders have been required (at times) in the past.

(It's nice to have the option of using fenders).

Machka 05-01-13 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 15574626)
lights and reflective gear, obviously required. Fenders not required. Never heard of anyone requiring fenders for randonneuring before this thread, and I'm not sure I believe it. My observation is that fenders are in a distinct minority

I may be mistaken, but I think that certain PNW clubs required fenders and so did certain Audax UK clubs ..... places that experience a lot of rain.

unterhausen 05-01-13 09:00 AM

It wouldn't surprise me that audax (in the sense that everyone rides together) clubs might require fenders.

Carbonfiberboy 05-01-13 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machka (Post 15574731)
I may be mistaken, but I think that certain PNW clubs required fenders and so did certain Audax UK clubs ..... places that experience a lot of rain.

Not exactly in the PNW. For spring brevets, SIR says:
Quote:

Fenders are a must or you'll face the scorn and abuse of your fellow Randonneurs!
or
Quote:

As a courtesy to other riders, fenders (with 1/4 coverage front wheel and 1/2 coverage rear wheel) are recommended. Additional rear splashguards are recommended for group riding.
One doesn't see fenderless bikes at the start of these events, and for good reason. Also mudflaps down to 2" above the ground. They also sometimes say, "not required but strongly recommended."

One doesn't need specific fender attachments. P-clips work fine. Most carbon forks won't allow a fender to pass through above any tire larger than a small 23c. Such forks are accommodated by ending the fender at the aft side of the fork, working its brake bolt attachment into the aft face of the crown, and/or zip-tying the end of the fender to the fork legs. Rear brake bridges are seldom so tight, but that is something to look at when choosing a rando-specific bike for a rainy area. I've seen people run their fender over the rear caliper, but that's not usually necessary on an ordinary road frame using 25c tires.

Bekologist 05-01-13 12:00 PM

.....and choosing a bike with slightly larger clearances makes it a breeze to run 23,25c, 28c tires and full fenders, will little downside to the rider. Like the OP did with his choice of the Jamis Satellite.

Commodus 05-01-13 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 15574626)
lights and reflective gear, obviously required. Fenders not required. Never heard of anyone requiring fenders for randonneuring before this thread, and I'm not sure I believe it. My observation is that fenders are in a distinct minority

The BC club used to require them. Not anymore, but if you show up to a brevet without fenders you might be the only one...I know because I was that one last year!

Coluber42 05-01-13 04:33 PM

The Crud Racer fenders and RaceBlade Long fenders are both designed for bikes with tight clearance. The RaceBlade Longs have a particularly handy release mechanism, which makes it much easier to travel with them or even just put the bike in the car than with standard fenders.

Required or not, if it's going to rain, fenders will keep you much cleaner and more comfortable. Yes, you will still be soaked if it's raining hard, but you won't have a stripe of grit up your backside, it will take much longer for your shorts to be soaked, you'll get less splatter in your face, and your friends will thank you. I know people who refuse to ride with anyone not using fenders unless it hasn't rained in weeks.

photogravity 05-02-13 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coluber42 (Post 15576775)
The Crud Racer fenders and RaceBlade Long fenders are both designed for bikes with tight clearance. The RaceBlade Longs have a particularly handy release mechanism, which makes it much easier to travel with them or even just put the bike in the car than with standard fenders.

Required or not, if it's going to rain, fenders will keep you much cleaner and more comfortable. Yes, you will still be soaked if it's raining hard, but you won't have a stripe of grit up your backside, it will take much longer for your shorts to be soaked, you'll get less splatter in your face, and your friends will thank you. I know people who refuse to ride with anyone not using fenders unless it hasn't rained in weeks.

I was on a ride a couple weekends ago with several guys and all but one bicycle had fenders installed. As we started out in the morning, the roads were still wet from overnight rain. After getting some tire spray in my face a time or two, I very quickly adjusted my place and space around the sole rider who was fenderless. Because of the practical considerations of having fenders on a bicycle, I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want a long distance bicycle without fenders. Also, to my eye, fenders have an aesthetic appeal that is not present on fenderless bicycles.

Now back to the original topic: Graupel731, I'm glad to see that managed to find a suitable bicycle. It seems Jamis bicycles are well-regarded and offer great value. Did you happen to get the Satellite Comp or the Satellite Sport? I see the Comp is a Reynolds 520 DB, whereas the Sport is 4130 Chromoly tubing.

Graupel731 05-02-13 07:52 AM

Just want to say again, thanks for all the help guys/gals!

Quote:

Originally Posted by photogravity (Post 15578636)
I was on a ride a couple weekends ago with several guys and all but one bicycle had fenders installed. As we started out in the morning, the roads were still wet from overnight rain. After getting some tire spray in my face a time or two, I very quickly adjusted my place and space around the sole rider who was fenderless. Because of the practical considerations of having fenders on a bicycle, I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want a long distance bicycle without fenders. Also, to my eye, fenders have an aesthetic appeal that is not present on fenderless bicycles.

Now back to the original topic: Graupel731, I'm glad to see that managed to find a suitable bicycle. It seems Jamis bicycles are well-regarded and offer great value. Did you happen to get the Satellite Comp or the Satellite Sport? I see the Comp is a Reynolds 520 DB, whereas the Sport is 4130 Chromoly tubing.

photogravity, I got the Sport.


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