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  1. #51
    Senior Member Gallo's Avatar
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    I agree with food and water. I also take some tums and advil just in case.

    Just put a limit on how, when and why questions to yourself
    "Are you finished and satisfied with the thread up to this point? If so, if you don't mind, I'm inclined to close it now, the quality posts have dwindled - it's circling the bowl now." BillyD

    I can't climb and do not sprint well so I over compensate with bad form and lack of endurance

    2008 Wilier Mortorolio - 2008 Stumpjumper Hardtail - 1986 Paramount

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
    sounds like a lot of solitary time for a 17 yr young man. my son is 17 and he is quite busy with socializing w friends.
    I socialize quite a bit at school however in my free time I enjoy riding my bike and getting fitter

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I am sure you mean well, but what you posted is almost irrelevant to long-distance cycling.

    The vast majority of people posting here have done large numbers of LD rides (centuries or longer) and are well versed on the reasons why "negative" thoughts emerge about the 75 mile mark... and it has almost entirely to do with nutrition and hydration.

    Practice at riding these sorts of distances does make a lot of difference.

    I think huge kudos is due to the OP for taking an interest at the age of 17 in centuries and the reasons why he feels the way he does. I hope he continues to develop that interest and goes on to longer rides.
    Thanks so much for the kindness! I am going to do a double metric not this saturday but the following saturday. I am hoping to do maybe 1 or 2 double metrics before it gets cold, like around November. Who knows. Last year I was riding in December up in Ohio here, but the winter seemed to be pushed back as I couldnt ride outside until beginning of April!

    If the weather holds off, a 140-1500 miler solo will be my last long ride this year

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    Hey! I resemble that remark! Except the part about a quick fix for my training part. I've always gone for training smart rather than long but that's really another discussion. I think we're all pretty much right on the fact that it's a nutrition issue here. Nutrition is one of the hardest things to nail down for all of us and this young rider had it doubly difficult by being vegan. That means a lot of extra planning and learning to listen to what your body is telling you. That's not easy and will take some time to learn. Heck, I've been doing this for years and still mess up.

    One thing to look for if you go the Ensure or Boost route is the sugar content. Some of them are really high and that can cause problems unto themselves. They are also hard to find in power form which makes them a little difficult to carry on longer rides. Besides the Hammer products, you might look at Spiz. I've used it on several RAAMs and really like it. For me, it is much more palatable than the Hammer products, especially if it gets warm. Remember, depending on effort, you should be consuming between 250-350 calories (of quality food) per hour. You need to be careful of going overboard too. Too many calories can be as bad or worse than not enough. Here is an article by Steve Born on fueling. It's pretty good. http://www.hammernutrition.com.au/in...t-way-to-fuel/ On thing to remember is that fuels like Hammer products, Spiz etc are designed for racers and their requirements. If you are not racing or pushing yourself in a similar manner you may not have similar digestive issues which is why many randoneurs can get away eating more solid foods.
    Lots to digest (pun intended) and it's a lifetime learning process. Try different things and come up with a recipe that works for you. Everyone is unique and what works for me or someone else may or may not work for you.
    you've ridden SEVERAL RAAMs? please talk to me

  5. #55
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hambertloot View Post
    you've ridden SEVERAL RAAMs? please talk to me
    Yeah, four of them as a racer, twice as a course official and once as a crew chief. What do you want me to talk about? I could talk aimlessly but that wouldn't be useful. It's better if you ask questions. Are you interested in doing RAAM someday? It's pretty tough and you will definitely have negative thoughts at some (probably several) points in that race.

    I should point out that my response to Rowan was somewhat in jest. I do believe what he said is extremely appropriate, especially for the new long distance rider. No matter what, you have to earn your butt , so to speak. So ask away...
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    I agree with food and water. I also take some tums and advil just in case...
    Careful with the advil. Not the best thing for the long distance rider Taking ibuprofen can mask pain to allow further injury, it can delay recovery and it also impairs kidney function by constricting the blood vessels into the kidneys and causing abnormal renal function. This can lead to Hyponatremia. If you are not careful, it can hurt you if you take too much.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Gallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    Careful with the advil. Not the best thing for the long distance rider Taking ibuprofen can mask pain to allow further injury, it can delay recovery and it also impairs kidney function by constricting the blood vessels into the kidneys and causing abnormal renal function. This can lead to Hyponatremia. If you are not careful, it can hurt you if you take too much.
    Thanks for the advice. I take two 200mg with me and use them only I feel I need to. Often I don't. I only take them if I am cramping and the water, electrolytes, tums is not doing the trick. Sometimes it helps sometimes it does not. I will investigate its effects further. I have brought them on 100 plus rides since the 80's when it first became over the counter and our group labeled them the wonder drug as it worked so good.
    "Are you finished and satisfied with the thread up to this point? If so, if you don't mind, I'm inclined to close it now, the quality posts have dwindled - it's circling the bowl now." BillyD

    I can't climb and do not sprint well so I over compensate with bad form and lack of endurance

    2008 Wilier Mortorolio - 2008 Stumpjumper Hardtail - 1986 Paramount

  8. #58
    Upgrading my engine DXchulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    Remember, depending on effort, you should be consuming between 250-350 calories (of quality food) per hour. You need to be careful of going overboard too. Too many calories can be as bad or worse than not enough. Here is an article by Steve Born on fueling. It's pretty good. http://www.hammernutrition.com.au/in...t-way-to-fuel/
    +1 on this. If he's like me and doesn't weigh much, he may not be too far off the mark with 200 calories per hour. In my earlier LD days I used to eat too much and that was a worse problem than not eating enough.

    A lot of it is just experience and confidence, too. I think it's natural to have a moment of doubt on a long ride. After all, this isn't easy. But that feeling of satisfaction you get after the ride from being able to push through those difficult moments is a thing of beauty (and an important life lesson). The more you ride, the weaker the doubts become. After a while you will have pushed through so many difficult moments that none of them will phase you. You'll be able to say to yourself, "I've pushed through worse." If you're trying to break through a new barrier (a double century, for example), new doubts may arise, but the experience of pushing through doubts in the past will help.

    So yes, experiment with your calorie intake and make sure you aren't running low. See what agrees with your body and what doesn't. It took me a while to figure all of that out. But don't be surprised if an extra 50, 100, 150 calories per hour doesn't solve all of your problems. Cycling isn't just physical exercise. It's mental, too.
    centuryperweek.blogspot.com

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DXchulo View Post
    +1 on this. If he's like me and doesn't weigh much, he may not be too far off the mark with 200 calories per hour. In my earlier LD days I used to eat too much and that was a worse problem than not eating enough.

    A lot of it is just experience and confidence, too. I think it's natural to have a moment of doubt on a long ride. After all, this isn't easy. But that feeling of satisfaction you get after the ride from being able to push through those difficult moments is a thing of beauty (and an important life lesson). The more you ride, the weaker the doubts become. After a while you will have pushed through so many difficult moments that none of them will phase you. You'll be able to say to yourself, "I've pushed through worse." If you're trying to break through a new barrier (a double century, for example), new doubts may arise, but the experience of pushing through doubts in the past will help.

    So yes, experiment with your calorie intake and make sure you aren't running low. See what agrees with your body and what doesn't. It took me a while to figure all of that out. But don't be surprised if an extra 50, 100, 150 calories per hour doesn't solve all of your problems. Cycling isn't just physical exercise. It's mental, too.
    I'm a lightweight as well, 67" at 130lbs I am going to try 300 calories an hour tomorrow instead of 200

  10. #60
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Thanks for the advice. I take two 200mg with me and use them only I feel I need to. ...
    I'm just like you, used to use them all the time. Apparently the negative effects of ibuprofen on athletes have been studied and reported since the mid-1990s though I don't hear anything about it until a few years ago.
    I got this from a sports medicine Dr. who does research on triathletes.
    "Of course, if you’ve been habitually popping ibuprofen through every event you’ve done and nothing’s happened, nothing ever will...until you find you haven’t peed after a race, start feeling sick and end up in the hospital, looking like a beached whale hooked up to dialysis. Then all those smokers and couch potatoes you thought you were better than are suddenly better off than you."
    I assume that this is more the issue if you use them a lot. I'm sure once in a while probably isn't a big deal.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  11. #61
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hambertloot View Post
    I'm a lightweight as well, 67" at 130lbs I am going to try 300 calories an hour tomorrow instead of 200
    Be very aware that it is not just "calories" that is important, it's what's in those calories!
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  12. #62
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    OP: In addition to the excellent nutritional advice given, I'll say this, just 'cause nobody else has.

    I often fall into a bit of a funk while doing something really cool solo. A good example would be skiing- I am sometimes strangely bummed, when skiing alone, by mid-afternoon. I attribute it to just an amplified sense of loneliness brought about by how awesome the work of the day is, and how cool it'd be to share it with someone else.

    I hope that made sense. I'm tired, off to bed.
    Every time that wheel turn 'round,
    Bound to cover just a little more ground!

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Thanks for the advice. I take two 200mg with me and use them only I feel I need to. Often I don't. I only take them if I am cramping and the water, electrolytes, tums is not doing the trick. Sometimes it helps sometimes it does not. I will investigate its effects further. I have brought them on 100 plus rides since the 80's when it first became over the counter and our group labeled them the wonder drug as it worked so good.
    Better known as Vitamin I at one stage.

    The clue for me on how ibuprofen might not be so good for me was on PBP2003 when I had a particularly painful case of constipation, which was repeated on other, later rides when I was popping it quite often.

    I rarely use it now.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  14. #64
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    I agree with other posters that the two important issues here are, in order of priority (1) eating well and (2) learning to accept negative thoughts and just let them wash over you and disperse. I am just posting to suggest that you can tape bananas, wrapped sub sandwiches and other food items to your bike's frame tubes besides carrying them in jersey pockets or a bike bag. Just don't put your taped up food items where your knees or other body parts will bump into them and cause annoyance. And if you use masking tape, it's easier to rip your food out mid-ride... someone with a duct taped banana is asking for trouble.

  15. #65
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    ...learning to accept negative thoughts and just let them wash over you and disperse...
    Oh, if it were only that easy!!!!!!

    I've always have to fight negative thoughts and reactions to lactic acid buildup/muscle pains in most athletic endeavors I've participated in, from long distance swimming to alpine skiing, while hiking the length of the Appalachian Trail, and, of course, cycling! Dunno why that's my normal mental mode during exercise, but it is. Only happens when I'm trying to be athletic - never any other times. And I have never been able to "learn to live with it"!

    My latest method to help me ride through them is fairly simple - boring but simple. I taped two strips of paper on my handlebars, one on either side of the stem. The left one has the word "Elephant" written on it. The right one has the word "Temporary" on it. Both are covered in clear tape to make them waterproof.

    The two words reference things said here and elsewhere numerous times.
    Elephant - you eat an elephant one bite at a time - right?!?!
    Temporary - It's ALL temporary, feeling good, feeling bad, the boring, the ecstasy, weather, pain. Everything is temporary.

    Since most of my rides are solo and I don't use music, audiobooks or other audio for safety reasons, I'm left to deal with whatever totally on my own. Recently, at the first hint of a negative (mental, pain, strain, whatever), I've been glancing at one or both of the two paper strips and "chant" the relevant saying (in my mind) like a yogi's "OM". Even on a relatively short ride today, I found myself looking to the strips for solace more than once. Got me through it... I totally dunno why.

    Hard to imagine the tricks RAAM riders have to use to cover that distance! Definitely can't be as simple as this, though I've heard of semi-similar things (like "just ride to the next .... then I can quite/take a break/whatever").

  16. #66
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20_700c View Post
    Hard to imagine the tricks RAAM riders have to use to cover that distance! Definitely can't be as simple as this, though I've heard of semi-similar things (like "just ride to the next .... then I can quite/take a break/whatever").
    I haven't ridden a RAAM, but I have ridden four 1200K randonnees, and it can be about that simple.

    Any time I thought of a 1200K as Twelve Hundred Kilometres ... or anytime I let myself think about the entire distance I had yet to travel (Eight Hundred and Fifty Kilometres) ... I just about packed it in and quit.

    Instead, I thought about that day. Today, I will be cycling 70 km to the next town where I will stop for lunch. Well, 70 km isn't bad. I had done many 70 km rides in my training. The furthest I would let myself think ahead would be ... tonight I'll be in that town, where I will stop to sleep. But I didn't dwell on that thought too long because that was still some distance off.

  17. #67
    Senior Member Blue_Bulldog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20_700c View Post

    My latest method to help me ride through them is fairly simple - boring but simple. I taped two strips of paper on my handlebars, one on either side of the stem. The left one has the word "Elephant" written on it. The right one has the word "Temporary" on it. Both are covered in clear tape to make them waterproof.

    The two words reference things said here and elsewhere numerous times.
    Elephant - you eat an elephant one bite at a time - right?!?!
    Temporary - It's ALL temporary, feeling good, feeling bad, the boring, the ecstasy, weather, pain. Everything is temporary.
    I have something similar. Taking a cue from the great Jens Voigt, I have this on my handlebars:
    1235408_10152540223696988_1726376660_n.jpg

    #ShutUpLegs

    It worked, too

  18. #68
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20_700c View Post
    ...Hard to imagine the tricks RAAM riders have to use to cover that distance! Definitely can't be as simple as this, though I've heard of semi-similar things (like "just ride to the next .... then I can quite/take a break/whatever").
    You have to break long events up into digestible chunks. On RAAM it's time station to time station. That's usually about 50+/- miles, quite manageable. On Brevets, it's control to control, about the same distances. You have to realize that on long rides you are just going to have some ups and downs. If you're in a down you slow a bit, eat/drink something and know that things will be good again. Look forward to the next up. On RAAM we have music piped from the van so we don't have to spend 3000 miles listening to ourselves. You know, of course, that when you talk to yourself you meet a higher class of people. We also have crew out there cheering us on 24/7. It's not like solitary confinement on the bike. Sometimes it's actually nice to turn it all off and just ride.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  19. #69
    Senior Member joewein's Avatar
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    I think powders and concentrates make sense for high performance athletes, but for mere mortals regular food works fine on bike rides.

    At the 600 km brevet last weekend I rode mostly on bananas. They're fully vegan compatible, I believe and fairly easy to find in convenience stores and food shops along the way. I just bought a bunch of about 5, broke them up into pairs and stuffed those into the jersey pockets. I'd eat one every half an hour or so. Once I finished the last one, I stopped at the next convenience store and bought another bunch. I had some other food too, but bananas probably covered at least 2/3 of my calories. Just can't go wrong with them in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joewein View Post
    I think powders and concentrates make sense for high performance athletes, but for mere mortals regular food works fine on bike rides.

    At the 600 km brevet last weekend I rode mostly on bananas. They're fully vegan compatible, I believe and fairly easy to find in convenience stores and food shops along the way. I just bought a bunch of about 5, broke them up into pairs and stuffed those into the jersey pockets. I'd eat one every half an hour or so. Once I finished the last one, I stopped at the next convenience store and bought another bunch. I had some other food too, but bananas probably covered at least 2/3 of my calories. Just can't go wrong with them in my opinion.
    ill try the bananas! they are my favorite food. i eat atleast 10 a day. I tend to talk to myself the whole 100 miles lol is that weird? i bet you can relate guys i only did 70mi last week. i wasnt feeling it. it was cold windy and a down pour. feet were soaked. this saturday is going to be beautiful and i am going for a 125miler (double metric). probably good that i disnt do 100 last weekend so i am fresh for this one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    I haven't ridden a RAAM, but I have ridden four 1200K randonnees, and it can be about that simple.

    Any time I thought of a 1200K as Twelve Hundred Kilometres ... or anytime I let myself think about the entire distance I had yet to travel (Eight Hundred and Fifty Kilometres) ... I just about packed it in and quit.

    Instead, I thought about that day. Today, I will be cycling 70 km to the next town where I will stop for lunch. Well, 70 km isn't bad. I had done many 70 km rides in my training. The furthest I would let myself think ahead would be ... tonight I'll be in that town, where I will stop to sleep. But I didn't dwell on that thought too long because that was still some distance off.
    I totally agree! Even on a 400, if I let myself think about the total distance at the beginning, say with 350 km to go, it can be depressing. One must consider only the next control. Sometimes, even only the next turn!
    Last edited by mander; 09-25-13 at 08:51 AM.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20_700c View Post
    Oh, if it were only that easy!!!!!!
    ...
    Temporary - It's ALL temporary, feeling good, feeling bad, the boring, the ecstasy, weather, pain. Everything is temporary.
    That kind of meditative state is exactly what I meant by "let negative feelings wash over you and disperse". It's not like an ability I have to turn off negative feelings; it's this funny state of reflectiveness where instead of sitting inside the negative feeling, you consider it as something that will pass.

  23. #73
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    On a related note, Rule #6.
    Quote Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
    There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
    RUSA #7498

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    Another thought, too.

    Stop looking at the bike computer when you are starting to feel "negative". I know that it's needed for intermediate distances, but if it's a long stretch, there is nothing worse than thinking 10 minutes has gone by and looking down to see you've only done one mile.

    Time just does seem to defy itself in those circumstances.

    Of course, noting that your speed really is 6 miles an hour -- on the flats -- might lead you to conclude that you are on the way to bonking.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  25. #75
    Senior Member joewein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hambertloot View Post
    i only did 70mi last week. i wasnt feeling it. it was cold windy and a down pour. feet were soaked.
    Wet feet are really uncomfortable. One trick I sometimes use when there's a chance my socks will get all soaked is to use small household plastic bags as second layer socks, to keep the actual socks dry and warm. It may not work for a 300 km ride, because the plastic also keeps the sweat in, but for a couple of hours it can make quite a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by hambertloot View Post
    this saturday is going to be beautiful and i am going for a 125miler (double metric). probably good that i disnt do 100 last weekend so i am fresh for this one
    What you did on a previous weekend shouldn't really have much of an impact on the next weekend. The legs will recover soon. I find that after more challenging exercise I'm usually fine again after no more than 2-3 days of taking it easy, and I'm older than you.

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