Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Indoor trainer use to rehab & prep for winter brevets

    Okay, here's the deal. As seems to be becoming more and more commonplace each Fall/early Winter, I'm once again rehabbing an ITB/knee joint injury. Also, my 2014 goals list includes completing a 300k brevet in Feb and a 400k in late Feb/early Mar in Texas (multiple possibilities).

    Hoping to get more "quality" rehab and winter training in than in previous years, I've got a Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer to augment my (often sporadic winter) outdoor rides this time around. And, as noted a while back, I'm now on a Bacchetta Corsa instead of my once-prized GRR. The new bike has done wonders for my back but I'm still adjusting to the new riding position even after 2000 miles on it this season.

    So, here's the question.
    How do I maximize the use&benefit(s) of the indoor trainer to accomplish my goal of completing both a 300&400k brevet in late Feb/early Mar starting now? My most recent actual long distance outdoor ride was a flat century at a 14mph pace. I've been able to consistently ride back-to-back sub-5 hour metric centuries twice a week (4 rides with one day off between pairs) without increasing the ITB pain - BUT it doesn't go away. Ever. (After a half hour warm up, it actually feels pretty good while pedaling. But an hour after I quit pedaling and get off the bike, the ITB pain level starts up again, reaches its max level about 2 hours later and then just maintains itself there until my next ride. Doc says there's nothing technically wrong, just rest it -> a week spent off bike hasn't helped.)

    I'm thinking 2 or 3x/wk high cadence, low resistance 1-2hour indoor rides (spinning/cadence concentration), 1 30-minute medium resistance, stair step interval session/wk, an outdoor (metric?)century and a longer weekend ride through the 3rd week of Jan when the brevet season begins. Then alternate weeks of 200ks until the 300k which should be sufficient outdoor training for the 400k.

    Note: The reason for shooting for a late Feb/early Mar 300k/400k is I'm shooting for a late Spring/early Summer 1000k. So, I need to give myself the most opportunities for completing a 600k before then.

    Suggestions? Comments?

    (Note: I've never used an indoor trainer for any sort of long-term rehab or structured training program. So, I'm fumbling in the dark here.)
    Last edited by 20_700c; 12-13-13 at 05:36 PM.

  2. #2
    Randomhead
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,834
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My feeling is that training for long distance probably shouldn't be much different than training for anything else. I would aim for fitness and speed and you can almost surely do that with sub-hour workouts. I have heard of people riding trainer centuries, and the very idea gives me hives.

    Not that you asked, but my ITB problems cleared up with swimming. Cycling is not known for helping ITB problems

    What 1000k are you planning on riding? I wanted to do an early-season 1200k last year, but decided against it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    What 1000k are you planning on riding?
    Right now, I'm looking at the Santa Fe-Herrington 1000k in late May.

    It looks interesting and "doable". But, it's got a few transportation issues I have yet to solve - it starts in New Mexico and ends in Kansas. So, getting there with a bike and then getting home.....well, like I said. There are a couple issues....

  4. #4
    Randomhead
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,834
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    that looks interesting, return trip notwithstanding.

  5. #5
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Everett, WA
    My Bikes
    CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
    Posts
    8,531
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Looks like a program to me. I try to do 2 high cadence workouts at low effort, one longer, one shorter. I also try to mix some mid-level work in with the moderate, like 15-30 minute intervals at a 70-80 cadence, maybe an easy roller/trainer ride if I need some recovery.

    What are the symptoms, where's the pain? It's usually not the ITB, it just feels like it is. It's usually something else causing the joint to swell and something to rub.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    downingtown//phila, pa
    My Bikes
    rando, road, cross, touring, track, mountain....
    Posts
    114
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    this 'advice' won't really be directed at the trainer use per se, but:

    i just dealt with IT band woes this time last year, and ended up doing physical therapy from december through february of this year. at the peak of the problem, before it was diagnosed and i started PT, i could ride maybe an hour pain free, then straight to excruciating. after physical therapy sessions and regular stretching, core exercises, rolling out legs, etc. (not to mention practically zero riding from december to february), i managed to ride a metric in april, a century in june, and my first 200k in september. the take-home message i got from PT was that it was extremely important to stretch and keep your IT band (and other leg muscles/tendons/etc.) loose. simply resting won't resolve the problem at hand, you need to actively stay on top of it. core exercises were for strengthening your core and lowering the stress and demand on your legs/knees for things like balance...your legs should only be used for forward motion. a plethora of leg stretches to keep everything limber....

    even though the june century was pain-free, from miles 75-95 or so of the 200k, my knee/IT band pain crept back up. i blame the elevation (~10,000ft) causing sloppy pedaling technique, but the fact that it came back always lingers in the back of my mind, as i'd like to try my hand at 300 and 400k's this coming year, but am hesitant.

    i'm beginning to ramble, but what i do whenever my pain comes back up is to get on the trainer for 5-10 minutes to warm up, and then do my battery of stretches and core/leg exercises. i used to do it religiously while i was doing PT as well as after, which i think helped me significantly in getting back on the bike and being able to complete these longer distances. (my doctor, when he first diagnosed my IT band problem, said it might be a thing that would limit me to 20-30 miles a ride for the rest of my life, so glad he was wrong!).

    don't just rest, but try to get to the root of the problem. figure out what's wrong, and do what needs to be done so that you don't have to deal with any pain (or at the very least, much less than what you're dealing with that will make the 600k/1000k bearable). getting more miles in on the trainer isn't necessarily going to help directly: you're still doing the same knee-bending circular motion that rubs and causes trouble over, and over, and over...... if anything, you're just building up your tolerance to the pain.

  7. #7
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    I ride where the thylacine roamed!
    My Bikes
    Lots
    Posts
    39,837
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've been ready for an early season of randonnees using a combination of trainer + spinning classes + cycling outside + weightlifting and core work + winter sports.

    The "program" went something along these lines ...

    1 or 2 days per week - 60 minute spinning class + weightlifting + 30 minutes on the treadmill ... all at the gym

    2 or 3 days per week - 30-60 minutes on the trainer doing commercial intervals + weightlifting and core work at home

    1 or 2 days per week - cycling a longer distance outside

    1 or 2 days per week - if I didn't cycle a longer distance outside, I would do a winter sport such as snowshoeing or cross-country skiing

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by seajaye
    don't just rest, but try to get to the root of the problem. figure out what's wrong, and do what needs to be done so that you don't have to deal with any pain

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
    What are the symptoms, where's the pain? It's usually not the ITB, it just feels like it is. It's usually something else causing the joint to swell and something to rub.
    As I said, I've been to a doctor and it's been diagnosed as an ITB issue. He's got a degree so I take his word for it. Otoh, I also have a problem with bursitis.

    His advice - rest. A week off the bike didn't seem to do the trick. Pain while riding, after warming up, is tolerable/manageable. What's aggravating is the lingering pain between rides.

    In any case, I appreciate the advice and "routines" thus far. I'll work something out given what's been said. Thanks.

  9. #9
    Senior Member mustridebikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Wilmington, NC
    My Bikes
    Novara Randonee
    Posts
    73
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not rehabbing an injury or anything, but I plan on some structured indoor workouts this winter. One thing I'm looking forward to (in a masochistic way since I did the tour in 2013) is the Tour of Sufferlandria. The Sufferfest makes a fantastic series of videos for those days when you're stuck on a trainer, and the tour is a brutal test of endurance that I'm hoping will prepare me for a 200K in the spring.

  10. #10
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Everett, WA
    My Bikes
    CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
    Posts
    8,531
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by 20_700c View Post
    [/COLOR]
    As I said, I've been to a doctor and it's been diagnosed as an ITB issue. He's got a degree so I take his word for it. Otoh, I also have a problem with bursitis.

    His advice - rest. A week off the bike didn't seem to do the trick. Pain while riding, after warming up, is tolerable/manageable. What's aggravating is the lingering pain between rides.

    In any case, I appreciate the advice and "routines" thus far. I'll work something out given what's been said. Thanks.
    Do not take his word for it. He does not have an advanced degree in exercise physiology, I guarantee it. No doc who did would give that advice. If you want professional advice, get him to give you a referral to a sports doc. You might have a high-end fitter in your area who has such a degree. That would be another person who could probably fix your problem.

    I don't have such a degree, either. However after hanging around on these boards for several years, it's my observation that most ITB issues are not. The ITB is a long piece of stringy tissue. It cannot be stretched. I mean that sure one can stretch it, but it doesn't get any longer. Whatever your issue is, it can be fixed, I can also guarantee that. You just need to find out what the issue is.

    Some things you can try right now. These stretches, 3 X day:
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15372967
    You should read that whole thread while you're at it.

    If you can, also do weights after trainer or rollers as Machka suggested. If you do that, rather than follow a traditional weight lifting approach, do 1 set of 30 with a weight that you can just barely manage the 30 with.
    Leg sled
    Horizontal rows
    Back machine
    Barbell squats
    Bench press
    Straight legged deadlifts
    One-legged calf raises
    Roman chair

    I also highly recommend Core Advantage, by Tom Danielson's strength trainer.

    Also, until you find a fitter, lower your saddle 5mm, until your heel is firmly planted on the pedal at bottom dead center, without hip rocking.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    99
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Do not take his word for it. He does not have an advanced degree in exercise physiology, I guarantee it. No doc who did would give that advice. If you want professional advice, get him to give you a referral to a sports doc. You might have a high-end fitter in your area who has such a degree. That would be another person who could probably fix your problem.

    I don't have such a degree, either. However after hanging around on these boards for several years, it's my observation that most ITB issues are not. The ITB is a long piece of stringy tissue. It cannot be stretched. I mean that sure one can stretch it, but it doesn't get any longer. Whatever your issue is, it can be fixed, I can also guarantee that. You just need to find out what the issue is.
    ...snip...
    Also, until you find a fitter, lower your saddle 5mm, until your heel is firmly planted on the pedal at bottom dead center, without hip rocking.
    I DO appreciate your perspective and comments. However, the doc IS someone I respect who specializes in sports injuries. He's treated a few of the New Orleans Saints (NFL), Pelicans (NBA) and Zephyrs (minor league baseball) as well as numerous local university and high school athletes. Not cheap and not really covered by my sh***y medical insurance but I went ahead and saw him to rule out anything major.

    Otoh, as far as a bike fitting > I can't lower the seat - I ride a recumbent. Seriously though, I've been dialing in the seat to pedal distance and seat recline angle since I bought the bike a few months ago. It's definitely "almost there" in terms of balancing aerodynamics, comfort and power/efficiency. I started with the seat quite upright (because I was a newbie SWB high racer rider) and a bit too close (seat to pedal-wise) but have been making very small incremental adjustments every couple weeks - well, actually, it's been about 3 1/2 weeks since my last minor adjustment. I'm now reclined to where my riding position is pretty close to the "base" reference pictures on the Bacchetta site.

    As I said, I have more discomfort while not riding than while riding - after my initial warm up miles. That's the "confusing" thing - for both myself and the doc. Shrug. I've had knee & back issues for years, decades even. I'm used to what that means. This semi-constant discomfort (bordering on pain) is something relatively new but he's of the mindset that cycling won't do any permanent damage if I can "handle the pain".

    The one physiotherapy thing I haven't tried yet due to cost is massage therapy. It's not covered by any medical insurance I can afford and it's not cheap. Being on a very limited, fixed income does have its drawbacks. So, at this point I'll try other things for a while before throwing money at a no-guarantees solution.

    The one mechanical change I have been considering is going with a shorter crank - maybe going to a 160 from my current 170mm ones. I have no reason to believe it will help especially since (again I've already said this) I have more discomfort when not riding than while riding. But it's never NO discomfort. Otoh, it's a VERY cheap possible solution when compared to massage therapy & doctor visits.

    We'll see.

    Like Scarlett O'hara said, I'll think about that (all the possible reasons for the discomfort) tomorrow. For now, I'm concentrating more on just getting to and through the 300&400ks next year.
    Last edited by 20_700c; 12-15-13 at 09:10 AM.

  12. #12
    Randomhead
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,834
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    it doesn't really surprise me that you have more discomfort off the bike than on the bike. Cycling can contribute to ITB problems. I think it's good advice to look for more help elsewhere. Whenever I hear that rest was given as a potential cure, it makes me wonder. Sure, it's good advice if you have an inflammation issue. But more often, it's like when the online help chat person tells you to reboot your computer, as far as they are concerned your problems are over. I went to see the best doctor in my area for sports injuries, and he did nothing for my knee. Finally, I started swimming, and that fixed my problems. Actually, it got me to where I could ride my bike again, and using a couple of different variations on a Cho-Pat strap or KT tape got my ITB problems so I don't have significant issues any more. Looking around in the PT room makes it clear where you stand in their list of people that need help; most of those people would be ecstatic if they could ride 5 miles on a bike.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    My Bikes
    Terraferma 650b, Mondonico SL and ELOS, Masi Gran Criterium, Trek 610, Breezer Liberty, Georgena Terry Classic
    Posts
    11,197
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post

    Also, until you find a fitter, lower your saddle 5mm, until your heel is firmly planted on the pedal at bottom dead center, without hip rocking.
    I like this advice, to lower the saddle until you reach a position which all know to be not excessively high, until you can get good help with fitting. Keep it conservative and remain safe!

  14. #14
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Everett, WA
    My Bikes
    CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
    Posts
    8,531
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by 20_700c View Post
    I DO appreciate your perspective and comments. However, the doc IS someone I respect who specializes in sports injuries. He's treated a few of the New Orleans Saints (NFL), Pelicans (NBA) and Zephyrs (minor league baseball) as well as numerous local university and high school athletes. Not cheap and not really covered by my sh***y medical insurance but I went ahead and saw him to rule out anything major.

    Otoh, as far as a bike fitting > I can't lower the seat - I ride a recumbent. Seriously though, I've been dialing in the seat to pedal distance and seat recline angle since I bought the bike a few months ago. It's definitely "almost there" in terms of balancing aerodynamics, comfort and power/efficiency. I started with the seat quite upright (because I was a newbie SWB high racer rider) and a bit too close (seat to pedal-wise) but have been making very small incremental adjustments every couple weeks - well, actually, it's been about 3 1/2 weeks since my last minor adjustment. I'm now reclined to where my riding position is pretty close to the "base" reference pictures on the Bacchetta site.

    As I said, I have more discomfort while not riding than while riding - after my initial warm up miles. That's the "confusing" thing - for both myself and the doc. Shrug. I've had knee & back issues for years, decades even. I'm used to what that means. This semi-constant discomfort (bordering on pain) is something relatively new but he's of the mindset that cycling won't do any permanent damage if I can "handle the pain".

    The one physiotherapy thing I haven't tried yet due to cost is massage therapy. It's not covered by any medical insurance I can afford and it's not cheap. Being on a very limited, fixed income does have its drawbacks. So, at this point I'll try other things for a while before throwing money at a no-guarantees solution.

    The one mechanical change I have been considering is going with a shorter crank - maybe going to a 160 from my current 170mm ones. I have no reason to believe it will help especially since (again I've already said this) I have more discomfort when not riding than while riding. But it's never NO discomfort. Otoh, it's a VERY cheap possible solution when compared to massage therapy & doctor visits.

    We'll see.

    Like Scarlett O'hara said, I'll think about that (all the possible reasons for the discomfort) tomorrow. For now, I'm concentrating more on just getting to and through the 300&400ks next year.
    With seat height, you do the same thing on a bent as on a DF. Get your butt firmly planted like you were climbing, unclip one foot and put that heel on that pedal. At BDC your heel should be firmly planted on the pedal, with maybe just a very slight bend in the knee. This is only for the healing phase. After you are well, you can move the seat back to where your heel just barely touches the pedal. This adjustment reduces the tendency for the ITB and other tendons to slide back and forth over the bursa. If this adjustment makes your kneecaps hurt, you'll have to move the seat back a few mm.

    I understand about the cost thing. There are free things and very low cost things to try, however. The way to fix a thing like this is to try stuff and see if it works. The thing not to do is to proceed in pain with no changes. That's a good way to get permanent damage.

    Free:
    Adjust seat.
    Move cleats back.
    Do those stretches 3 X day.
    No gym? Do one legged calf raises on a stair. Shoot for 1 set of 30 every other day. Do one-legged squats on a chair, one hand on the wall. Shoot for 3 sets of 20, every other day. Trade legs between sets. If you can't do that, do "chair squats" where you do a 2-legged squat above a chair. Squat off your heels, knees behind toes. 2 sets of 15 to start. Stretch after the workout.
    Walk. Set a goal of so many miles every other day.

    Low cost:
    Buy the Core Advantage book.
    Buy The Stick. Roll your ITB and bursa with it, so inside and outside of knee. Heck, roll your whole leg while you're at it. Feels good. I bought the travel version, fits in a pannier for touring.

    So I'm sayiing, be proactive. Concentrate on fixing the problem. Worry about doing the distance when you get the pain fixed. You don't need to work on distance until at least the middle of January for brevets in April. You should be well on the road to fixing the problem in 2 weeks if you work at it.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    downingtown//phila, pa
    My Bikes
    rando, road, cross, touring, track, mountain....
    Posts
    114
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post

    So I'm sayiing, be proactive. Concentrate on fixing the problem. Worry about doing the distance when you get the pain fixed. You don't need to work on distance until at least the middle of January for brevets in April. You should be well on the road to fixing the problem in 2 weeks if you work at it.
    yep, sounds about right!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •