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    Randomhead
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    Garmin on long rides

    there are a couple of threads about this subject in this forum, particularly THIS ONE.

    I have gotten used to using my Garmin 800 on 200k's, but the upcoming fleche will be the longest ride where I cared about it functioning. My 800 finished the last two days of Endless Mountains in my drop bag since I couldn't keep it charged for some reason. Knock on wood, I haven't had a white screen in a while.

    I have a friend with the new Touring model and he hasn't gotten the hang of it. Lots of lockups and white screens.

    I think it works better if you only display maps sparingly, any comment about that?
    Randonneuring -- it's touring for people that aren't smart enough to stop for the night.
    It's a wonderful sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep

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    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    My Edge 800 is always set to the map. I have never had a white screen or any other malfunction. I use a simple and cheap battery pack for long distances, as I've described before. As I've also described, I never plug my 800 into a computer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    My Edge 800 is always set to the map. I have never had a white screen or any other malfunction. I use a simple and cheap battery pack for long distances, as I've described before. As I've also described, I never plug my 800 into a computer.
    I am sorry if this is a stupid question but I just bought Garmin 800 because I can't see cuesheet. Anyway, if I don't connect it to a computer how do I download brevet cuesheets or open source maps? is there a reason not to connect directly to a PC? Virus? Unwanted software updates (bugs) like Apple?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    I am sorry if this is a stupid question but I just bought Garmin 800 because I can't see cuesheet. Anyway, if I don't connect it to a computer how do I download brevet cuesheets or open source maps? is there a reason not to connect directly to a PC? Virus? Unwanted software updates (bugs) like Apple?
    It's a confusing/odd comment. It really needs some sort of explanation.

    I routinely connect my 800 to my PC and, as expected, haven't had any issues.

    You have to confirm any firmware updates. (I've updated mine twice and am running the latest firmware version with no problems. And I've loaded different maps without any issues.)

    You won't get any viruses. No one is writing viruses for them (it's too much work, there isn't any programming information about them available publically, and there aren't enough of them to be a worthwhile target for that sort of mischief).

    EDIT: a virus running on you PC could "corrupt" the Garmin memory and the microSD card. But if a virus can do that, then it can corrupt your PC and any other thing you attach to it. That is, if you are worried about the Garmin being corrupted by a virus, you are worrying about the wrong thing (you need to keep viruses off your PC in the first place).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-23-14 at 12:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    I think it works better if you only display maps sparingly, any comment about that?
    On long rides, my 800 is nearly always displaying maps. I haven't experienced any issues that seem related to doing that.

    Displaying the map might consume power at a higher rate.

    If you are using calculated (turn by turn) routes, it might be better to split a long course into smaller segments. Doing so makes calculation faster, which makes it easier to recover when the device gets confused.

    Splitting the course is especially useful if the course crosses over itself since, sometimes, it can't tell which part if the course you are on.

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    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    I'd guess that the battery in your 800 might be finished. LiIon batteries don't last forever.

    The Touring models are basically the 800 with slightly different software. AFAIK it lacks things like speed and cadence sensors, so it only uses GPS for those. It can't use power meters, and lacks some of the training features. It adds some routing/POI options that are probably superfluous on a brevet.

    As long as you get good signals, the Touring model is probably fine. I'd still buy it from somewhere with a good return policy.

    Your friend should contact Garmin for support. A firmware update might fix things; if it doesn't, and it's still under warranty, Garmin will probably replace it.

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    I always split the courses into segments. Gives better resolution on older models and makee it faster on newer ones. Map is always displayed on my vista hcx because its a.better reference than any of the navigation screens. Prompts can qued to
    it as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    ...
    The Touring models are basically the 800 with slightly different software. AFAIK it lacks things like speed and cadence sensors, so it only uses GPS for those. It can't use power meters, and lacks some of the training features. It adds some routing/POI options that are probably superfluous on a brevet.

    As long as you get good signals, the Touring model is probably fine. I'd still buy it from somewhere with a good return policy.
    The Touring is for navigation, not training (there is no support for speed/cadence/power sensors). For an extra $50, the Touring Plus adds a barometer (more accurate elevation gains) and support for a heart-rate monitor.

    The Touring software seems to follow the 810 and precede the 1000 (based on user-interface, routing options, and when they were released). The Touring adds "funky" routing options, which the 1000 appears to inherit. These options would not be applicable to Brevets.

    It appears that people have more issues with the Touring and 810 when using calculated (turn by turn) routing for uploaded courses than with the 800.

    Navigation only uses GPS (the wheel-rotation/speed sensor isn't used for that).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-22-14 at 08:27 PM.

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    Senior Member antimonysarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    there are a couple of threads about this subject in this forum, particularly THIS ONE.

    I have gotten used to using my Garmin 800 on 200k's, but the upcoming fleche will be the longest ride where I cared about it functioning. My 800 finished the last two days of Endless Mountains in my drop bag since I couldn't keep it charged for some reason. Knock on wood, I haven't had a white screen in a while.

    I have a friend with the new Touring model and he hasn't gotten the hang of it. Lots of lockups and white screens.

    I think it works better if you only display maps sparingly, any comment about that?
    I have the Touring Plus and run it always showing maps -- no lockups, no white screens, although I'm still getting the hang of it. It does seem to, even with turn-by-turn directions (including .tcx files I created myself on ridewithgps from my own routes while experimenting, where I know exactly where the route goes) sometimes want to tell me the wrong turn and then immediately after be all OFF COURSE, and I haven't figured out how to get custom cues to show up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antimonysarah View Post
    I have the Touring Plus and run it always showing maps -- no lockups, no white screens, although I'm still getting the hang of it. It does seem to, even with turn-by-turn directions (including .tcx files I created myself on ridewithgps from my own routes while experimenting, where I know exactly where the route goes) sometimes want to tell me the wrong turn and then immediately after be all OFF COURSE, and I haven't figured out how to get custom cues to show up.
    Are you using OSM maps in ridewithgps?

    There is no special magic in tcx files (gpx files include the same information). Tcx files can include "course points", which is what the "custom cues" are displaying but course points aren't used to calculate routes.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-22-14 at 09:36 PM.

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    Senior Member antimonysarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Are you using OSM maps in ridewithgps?

    There is no special magic in tcx files (gpx files include the same information). Tcx files can include "course points", which is what the "custom cues" are displaying but course points aren't used to calculate routes.
    Usually using Google Maps, because the OSM maps in ridewithgps are visually a headache, but I could always switch it just before exporting.

    I'm using TCX for the ahead-of-turn notification, which is really nice. Which says (in ridewithgps) that it includes custom cues, but it never does -- I have all the phrasing for a proper cue sheet in there (stop sign/T intersection notation, etc) and it just tells me which street to turn which way on, rather than giving me my cue.

  12. #12
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    I am sorry if this is a stupid question but I just bought Garmin 800 because I can't see cuesheet. Anyway, if I don't connect it to a computer how do I download brevet cuesheets or open source maps? is there a reason not to connect directly to a PC? Virus? Unwanted software updates (bugs) like Apple?
    The 800 can take MicroSD cards. I put my maps, courses, and ride data on the card. I put the card in a reader to read and write to it. The idea is that it's possible for the computer connection or human error to screw up the file system in any device connected, disconnected, and read and written to frequently. If the file system in a Garmin becomes corrupted, it's just a nice paperweight. If a card becomes corrupted, it's $4. Some people have trouble with them, some people don't. Hard to identify the problem, except if you never plug the sucker in to a USB port, you've eliminated that possibility. Never heard of anyone who followed this protocol having an issue other than not being able to figure out how to set the device up, for which there is very little information.

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    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antimonysarah View Post
    I have the Touring Plus and run it always showing maps -- no lockups, no white screens, although I'm still getting the hang of it. It does seem to, even with turn-by-turn directions (including .tcx files I created myself on ridewithgps from my own routes while experimenting, where I know exactly where the route goes) sometimes want to tell me the wrong turn and then immediately after be all OFF COURSE, and I haven't figured out how to get custom cues to show up.
    Wrong turn directions are either from having a messed up course point that makes the device think you want to turn the wrong way, or from not having the correct settings in the device. On a course, you want Turn Notifications ON and Virtual Partner OFF. Under System/Routing you want Calculate Routes for Bicycle, Guidance Method On Road for Distance, Lock on Road NO, Avoidance Setup: Do Not Avoid anything, Recalculate OFF.

    I use OSM maps on my device, which works fine with RWGPS. AFAIK, you can't put OSM maps on RWGPS - it uses what it uses.
    Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 04-23-14 at 12:04 AM.

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    Thank you, CFboy.

    To be safe especially since so many crazy, unaexplainable Edge 800 complaints, I'll use your approach to only load onto an SD card......just need to buy some cards. Is bigger better? I think they come in 4 to 32GB. Hope to use it on a 300k that is coming up, I need to hussle to figure this thing out. Battery should last long enough.

    I assume there are websites where riders share they ride files that I can load?

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    Quote Originally Posted by antimonysarah View Post
    Usually using Google Maps, because the OSM maps in ridewithgps are visually a headache, but I could always switch it just before exporting.
    Switching before exporting will do absolutely nothing. The coordinates of the points in the track won't change. (That's why importing it into Mapsource doesn't do anything either.)

    Quote Originally Posted by antimonysarah View Post
    I'm using TCX for the ahead-of-turn notification, which is really nice.
    Those notifications are the "course points". That information is what makes the tcx files different. For the calculated-routing (the big white arrows that are displayed), tcx and gpx work the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by antimonysarah View Post
    Which says (in ridewithgps) that it includes custom cues, but it never does -- I have all the phrasing for a proper cue sheet in there (stop sign/T intersection notation, etc) and it just tells me which street to turn which way on, rather than giving me my cue.
    There are things that Garmin calls "course points". These are coordinates with icons (like left and right arrows) and a 10 character label that get displayed on the units when you reach them. These are what is used to display cue-sheet entries (whether the cue-sheet entry is generated by ridewithgps or if it's custom).

    Since there is only 10 characters available, ridewithgps removes any "less essential" text. Since the icon shows the turn direction, ridewithgps removes "left", "right", etc from the "notes". The icon displayed is taken from the "Type" above the "Notes" (in ridewithgps).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-23-14 at 07:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    The 800 can take MicroSD cards. I put my maps, courses, and ride data on the card. I put the card in a reader to read and write to it. The idea is that it's possible for the computer connection or human error to screw up the file system in any device connected, disconnected, and read and written to frequently. If the file system in a Garmin becomes corrupted, it's just a nice paperweight. If a card becomes corrupted, it's $4. Some people have trouble with them, some people don't. Hard to identify the problem, except if you never plug the sucker in to a USB port, you've eliminated that possibility. Never heard of anyone who followed this protocol having an issue other than not being able to figure out how to set the device up, for which there is very little information.
    That makes some sense.

    People should really be writing stuff only to the microSD card anyway (whether it's throught the unit attached through the computer or in a microSD card).

    There isn't enought room in the internal memory for maps anyway.

    Anyway, it's not clear that the risk of writing to the card through the USB is any more risky than removing/inserting the card repeatedly. You have to plug the USB in (for recharging) ; you don't have to remove/insert the card.

    Not writing to the device's memory is a good idea. Not plugging it in to a computer is worrying too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by antimonysarah View Post
    I have the Touring Plus and run it always showing maps -- no lockups, no white screens, although I'm still getting the hang of it. It does seem to, even with turn-by-turn directions (including .tcx files I created myself on ridewithgps from my own routes while experimenting, where I know exactly where the route goes) sometimes want to tell me the wrong turn and then immediately after be all OFF COURSE, and I haven't figured out how to get custom cues to show up.
    Wrong turn directions are either from having a messed up course point that makes the device think you want to turn the wrong way, or from not having the correct settings in the device. On a course, you want Turn Notifications ON and Virtual Partner OFF. Under System/Routing you want Calculate Routes for Bicycle, Guidance Method On Road for Distance, Lock on Road NO, Avoidance Setup: Do Not Avoid anything, Recalculate OFF.
    A "course point" can just be wrong (you have to check each one carefully in ridewithgps, especially if you make lots of edits to a course or add custom ones).

    It seems that "recalculating" the route when you go off course doesn't work that well (as you said, it's a good idea to turn it off or make it optional and not use it). (This recalculating isn't that necessary on a bicycle anyway.)

    The "virtual partner" has nothing to do with navigation (but it is a visual distraction and the tcx course files aren't typically set-up to make the "virtual partner" do anything useful).

    There are other things than "not having the correct settings in the device" that can cause calculated-routing to go awry.

    Here are two important ones:

    1) The calculated-routing (which is separate from the "course point" stuff) can get messed up if you go off course or if your track leaves a routable "road" (or for other inexplicable reasons) even with the correct settings on the map.

    2) The calculated-routing can get messed-up if you plan the route using a different map than is on the device.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    I use OSM maps on my device, which works fine with RWGPS. AFAIK, you can't put OSM maps on RWGPS - it uses what it uses.
    ridewithgps lets you select the map to use (in the upper right corner of the map). OSM is one of the options.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-23-14 at 07:37 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    To be safe especially since so many crazy, unaexplainable Edge 800 complaints, I'll use your approach to only load onto an SD card......just need to buy some cards. Is bigger better? I think they come in 4 to 32GB. Hope to use it on a 300k that is coming up, I need to hussle to figure this thing out. Battery should last long enough.

    I assume there are websites where riders share they ride files that I can load?
    I have an 8 gig card and it works fine. So far I get all my courses off of ridewithgps.com Sometimes I have had to search on google to find the brevet I wanted. Bike route toaster is also popular among randonneurs

    I just use the garman as a drive on my computer, I don't use any software. You put the courses and maps in the "new files" directory and the next time the garmin boots it puts it in the right place to use it. If you put the files directly in the maps or courses directories, the device will ignore them. If you have an SD card, there are two identical sets of directories -- one on the device itself, and one on the sd card. The first time you put an SD card in the device, it writes the directories it wants onto it.

  19. #19
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    That makes some sense.

    People should really be writing stuff only to the microSD card anyway (whether it's throught the unit attached through the computer or in a microSD card).

    There isn't enought room in the internal memory for maps anyway.

    Anyway, it's not clear that the risk of writing to the card through the USB is any more risky than removing/inserting the card repeatedly. You have to plug the USB in (for recharging) ; you don't have to remove/insert the card.

    Not writing to the device's memory is a good idea. Not plugging it in to a computer is worrying too much.
    Maybe I do worry too much. In any case, I always charge the device with the Garmin charger and cord just like I would on tour, while I download/upload data to and from the MicroSD card in a reader. I have 3 chargers that are always plugged in, for my Garmin and USB lights and other devices. Some folks keep their chargers in the garage, so they just plug the bike in and don't demount the lights, Garmin, etc.

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    Randomhead
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    I wish I had that many outlets in my garage. I am pretty sure my method is fairly foolproof. I'm a little afraid to have software mess around with my device, but the operating system itself seems to be a fairly unlikely to do anything bad to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Maybe I do worry too much. In any case, I always charge the device with the Garmin charger and cord just like I would on tour, while I download/upload data to and from the MicroSD card in a reader. I have 3 chargers that are always plugged in, for my Garmin and USB lights and other devices. Some folks keep their chargers in the garage, so they just plug the bike in and don't demount the lights, Garmin, etc.
    Yes, in this case (IMO). I'd guess 99.9% of Edge 800 users just plug the device into their computers. It doesn't seem that people have problems doing that with any real regularity. While you are certainly free to do whatever you like, it's a bit "cargo cult science" to think that there's a significant risk in plugging it into a PC (and to think that that risk is any larger than repeatedly removing/inserting the microSD card).

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    If the file system in a Garmin becomes corrupted, it's just a nice paperweight.
    If this rather-rare event ever happens, there are diagnostic modes for the Garmin that might fix that.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-23-14 at 12:49 PM.

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    if all you do is hook the garmin up to use it as a SD card writer and not mess with its internal memory, the chances of bricking the device are vanishingly small. Unless your computer is also running a 5MW Jacob's ladder or something

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