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-   -   Dealing with accelerated wear on components from long rides (http://www.bikeforums.net/long-distance-competition-ultracycling-randonneuring-endurance-cycling/948022-dealing-accelerated-wear-components-long-rides.html)

Rowan 05-15-14 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16760425)
Do you want bushings, mediocre bearings, or great bearings.

(105, Ultegra, Dura Ace)

Take apart a dura ace shifter and a lower end shifter. The differences seen at 50,000 miles will be apparent.

And you have a real-life 50,000-mile experience with all three?

bmike 05-15-14 07:08 AM

I just moved from integrated 10spd campy to 9spd bar ends (so i can use sram / shimano stuff). tired of paying for chains / cassettes. And the 10spd stuff just wears faster with all the dirt roads and rain I have been riding. I swapped out a beautiful Campy rear hub for a 105 after doing similar searches. Ultegra would have been nice - but a local mech told me the hub internals were just about the same, and you pay for finish and weight.

With all the chains and cassettes I have bought since I built up my rando / road / everything bike I wish I could go back and just get the Rolhoff hub. I didn't want to spend the $$ back in 06. Wish I had. Would have made things much easier to maintain.

krobinson103 05-15-14 08:10 AM

Running 9 speed Deore/xt on my tourer. Stuff lasts forever. 30000km
and still shifts sweetly. The 2300 8 speed group on the roadie actually functions very well but doesn't seem
to have the staying power of 105/slx.

Weatherby 05-16-14 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowan (Post 16760491)
And you have a real-life 50,000-mile experience with all three?

Dura-Ace = yes, but not in one year...it took a few. :)

The others failed sooner, so no. Shifters broke, BB, and hub bearing surface did not last.

Whether the incremental cost is worthwhile is debatable but there is a difference between all three right out of the box, I listed them. To see the real difference, it takes miles. For almost all riders, the durability aspect will not be seen but the OP does a lot of Brevets and presumably does more than 10,000 miles per years, which is more than most people ever put on their 105 bikes. I don't want a bushing in the derailleur pulleys, I want bearings preferrably sealed ceramic ones. This saves at least one watt if not more and eases maintenance and has a longer life.

Weatherby 05-16-14 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krobinson103 (Post 16760849)
Running 9 speed Deore/xt on my tourer. Stuff lasts forever. 30000km
and still shifts sweetly. The 2300 8 speed group on the roadie actually functions very well but doesn't seem
to have the staying power of 105/slx.

I have an older Deore XT on my tourer, it seems right up there with Dura-Ace in terms of durability. I have about the same mileage on it as you do on yours.

Machka 05-16-14 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763519)
Whether the incremental cost is worthwhile is debatable but there is a difference between all three right out of the box, I listed them. To see the real difference, it takes miles. For almost all riders, the durability aspect will not be seen but the OP does a lot of Brevets and presumably does more than 10,000 miles per years, which is more than most people ever put on their 105 bikes. I don't want a bushing in the derailleur pulleys, I want bearings preferrably sealed ceramic ones. This saves at least one watt if not more and eases maintenance and has a longer life.


You know that both Rowan and I have completed many years of randonneuring and other long distance cycling? Lots of experience with lots of equipment. :)

Weatherby 05-16-14 07:28 AM

With respect to pedal bearings wearing out, I am experimenting with Speedplay Frogs. There is a grease port on the pedal body and you just squirt grease until the old grease is displaced. They use needle bearings and they should last a long, long time. Can't say the same expectation holds for the cleats with all the walking.

I do not miss replacing the bearings on pedals and repacking them. Water used to get into them really easily. Is that what is causing yours to fail? Or just poor bearings? You rould upgrade the bearings?

Weatherby 05-16-14 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machka (Post 16763554)
You know that both Rowan and I have completed many years of randonneuring and other long distance cycling? Lots of experience with lots of equipment. :)

Yes, you both tell us every day?

Did you ever break 10 hours on a Century?:)

Machka 05-16-14 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763560)
Did you ever break 10 hours on a Century?:)

Many, many times. Why do you ask?

Weatherby 05-16-14 07:47 AM

OP asked for input, my experience with Dua-Ace vs 105 is different than your or your husband's. For instance, dura-ace chains are not less reliable than 105. I gave reasons rather than ask how many miles you rode to support your position, which would be N = 1 anyway.

He or she (OP) can take the input as they wish.

Although I have not ridden much in years, I have ridden in excess of 200,000 miles on my bikes and am an engineer with 30+ years in quality assurance. I explained some of the differences between the groups. Is it worth the money, that is for the OP to decide. Keeping bearings clean and greased goes a long way as does a properly lubricated chain. 500km blowing out a cassette and chain tells me he/she is riding in wet and sandy/dirty roads. I would recommend fenders.

krobinson103 05-16-14 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763519)
Dura-Ace = yes, but not in one year...it took a few. :)

The others failed sooner, so no. Shifters broke, BB, and hub bearing surface did not last.

Whether the incremental cost is worthwhile is debatable but there is a difference between all three right out of the box, I listed them. To see the real difference, it takes miles. For almost all riders, the durability aspect will not be seen but the OP does a lot of Brevets and presumably does more than 10,000 miles per years, which is more than most people ever put on their 105 bikes. I don't want a bushing in the derailleur pulleys, I want bearings preferrably sealed ceramic ones. This saves at least one watt if not more and eases maintenance and has a longer life.

18000km last year, this year looks to be ariund 15000 or so. Scaled back
a bit with a three year old on top of our eight year old.

krobinson103 05-16-14 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763557)
With respect to pedal bearings wearing out, I am experimenting with Speedplay Frogs. There is a grease port on the pedal body and you just squirt grease until the old grease is displaced. They use needle bearings and they should last a long, long time. Can't say the same expectation holds for the cleats with all the walking.

I do not miss replacing the bearings on pedals and repacking them. Water used to get into them really easily. Is that what is causing yours to fail? Or just poor bearings? You rould upgrade the bearings?


Think I'm a cheapskate on pedals. With 6 bikes in the fleet I have to trim the budget somewhere.

krobinson103 05-16-14 09:37 AM

1 Attachment(s)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=380757

The lbs has this little 8 speed hybrid someone traded in. For a reasonable price I can mod it. Just needs some brake levers and bar tape. Shifter will sit on the drops fine. That will reduce wear on the good bikes by 100km a werk. This little bike rides nicely and looks rough... perfect to be a commuter.

Hydrated 05-16-14 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763560)
Yes, you both tell us every day?

Did you ever break 10 hours on a Century?:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763605)
OP asked for input, my experience with Dua-Ace vs 105 is different than your or your husband's. For instance, dura-ace chains are not less reliable than 105. I gave reasons rather than ask how many miles you rode to support your position, which would be N = 1 anyway.

He or she (OP) can take the input as they wish.

Although I have not ridden much in years, I have ridden in excess of 200,000 miles on my bikes and am an engineer with 30+ years in quality assurance. I explained some of the differences between the groups. Is it worth the money, that is for the OP to decide. Keeping bearings clean and greased goes a long way as does a properly lubricated chain. 500km blowing out a cassette and chain tells me he/she is riding in wet and sandy/dirty roads. I would recommend fenders.

Dude.

Just stop.

I've been sitting and watching your behavior in this forum, and sometimes it's difficult to hold my tongue when you post your opinions as hard fact and then claim wildly inflated mileage figures as proof. But I get mental when you insult and belittle veteran forum members... like Machka and Rowan... who have gone to great lengths to welcome and help new members with ACCURATE advice.

Just. Stop. Please.

contango 05-16-14 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763519)
Dura-Ace = yes, but not in one year...it took a few. :)

The others failed sooner, so no. Shifters broke, BB, and hub bearing surface did not last.

Whether the incremental cost is worthwhile is debatable but there is a difference between all three right out of the box, I listed them. To see the real difference, it takes miles. For almost all riders, the durability aspect will not be seen but the OP does a lot of Brevets and presumably does more than 10,000 miles per years, which is more than most people ever put on their 105 bikes. I don't want a bushing in the derailleur pulleys, I want bearings preferrably sealed ceramic ones. This saves at least one watt if not more and eases maintenance and has a longer life.

Interesting, I must be close to 10000 miles on my Tiagra-equipped bike and I have no idea what happened for the first couple of years of its life. It still seems to be working just fine.

pdlamb 05-16-14 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763557)
With respect to pedal bearings wearing out, I am experimenting with Speedplay Frogs. There is a grease port on the pedal body and you just squirt grease until the old grease is displaced. They use needle bearings and they should last a long, long time.

How frequently do yo have to replace other pedals' bearings? I seem to have to rebuild my Frogs about every 5,000 miles; I expect one of the bikes will need it again this year.

Oh, and do NOT forget the threadlocker on the outboard nut!

contango 05-16-14 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16763560)
Yes, you both tell us every day?

Did you ever break 10 hours on a Century?:)

What does that have to do with anything?

For what it's worth I'm a heavy rider and I've done a 150km populaire (I think it was 95 miles all-in) in 8 hours, which included a leisurely lunch stop.

CbadRider 05-16-14 06:39 PM

Let's not ruin the thread with bickering. If you want to expound on your accomplishments on a bike, please start a new thread.

CbadRider
Forum Admin

hybridbkrdr 05-17-14 07:34 AM

Bike24 - Shimano 105 5700 Groupset 2x10 compact black

105 - Groupsets - ROAD

Some examples here of Shimano 105 groupsets for sale. (The Tiagra are less expensive.) I don't know if using bar-end shifters would help if you use them in friction mode but maybe it's not the kind of riding you'd want. I saw some Microshift 9 speed bar-end shifters at aebike.com and some 8 speed Shimano Ultegra bar-end shifters at chainreactioncycles for very reasonable prices. You can use Paul Thumbies to mount them on flat bars.

hamster 05-17-14 02:37 PM

In this context, I think it's hard to overestimate the value of cleaning and lubricating all moving parts religiously at least once every couple of weeks, more often after riding in the rain or dirt. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to limit the wear rate to 2 chains & cassettes/year @ your mileage.

And pedal bearings? I never had pedal bearings wear out so far. I tend to get bored of my pedals before they get a chance to get worn out. I have Mavic SPD-SL clones with 7000 km on them, Shimano M520's with at least 6000 (I have 6000 logged with them in Strava, but I had them for several years before - though they weren't getting that much use); and Eggbeater 3's with 4000 km, and all their bearings are fine.

thebulls 05-24-14 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrated (Post 16764505)
Dude.

Just stop.

I've been sitting and watching your behavior in this forum, and sometimes it's difficult to hold my tongue when you post your opinions as hard fact and then claim wildly inflated mileage figures as proof. But I get mental when you insult and belittle veteran forum members... like Machka and Rowan... who have gone to great lengths to welcome and help new members with ACCURATE advice.

Just. Stop. Please.

+1

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, Weatherby. But it does matter if you are polite. Just imagine that you're on a bike ride with the people on this forum, talking to people the same way you're posting. Now imagine you get a flat tire. How many forum members will stop to help you out?

Nick

Weatherby 05-24-14 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebulls (Post 16787770)
+1

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, Weatherby. But it does matter if you are polite. Just imagine that you're on a bike ride with the people on this forum, talking to people the same way you're posting. Now imagine you get a flat tire. How many forum members will stop to help you out?

Nick

Nick, I responded to the OP with solid advice based upon experience and some technical basis. I do not consider some of the responses including yours towards me in this thread to have been polite. Now imagine impoliteness in the real world. We all deal with it in a different fashion. I think what really matters on an internet forum is an honest exchange of information and opinion and frankly, I do not understand your flat tire analogy. I have given many, many hours of my time to people on these forums. Beginners asking for advice on a variety of subjects and also weighting in on more advanced topics like this one. So, in a virtual way, I have stopped to help fix a ton of other people's tires so to speak.

You responded as "+1" to someone who basically called me a liar. How do you justify this. Do you think your response is acceptable behaviour? You also think my statements are lies or that my explanation of the difference between the component levels are fabricated? I read a post by Jan Heine the other day where he basically said the same thing with respect to mid-level components.

thebulls 05-24-14 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weatherby (Post 16788078)
Nick, I responded to the OP with solid advice based upon experience and some technical basis. I do not consider some of the responses including yours towards me in this thread to have been polite. Now imagine impoliteness in the real world. We all deal with it in a different fashion. I think what really matters on an internet forum is an honest exchange of information and opinion and frankly, I do not understand your flat tire analogy. I have given many, many hours of my time to people on these forums. Beginners asking for advice on a variety of subjects and also weighting in on more advanced topics like this one. So, in a virtual way, I have stopped to help fix a ton of other people's tires so to speak.

You responded as "+1" to someone who basically called me a liar. How do you justify this. Do you think your response is acceptable behaviour? You also think my statements are lies or that my explanation of the difference between the component levels are fabricated? I read a post by Jan Heine the other day where he basically said the same thing with respect to mid-level components.

Weatherby,

He didn't call you a liar, he said you're being rude. That's because ... some of your posts verge toward rudeness. Rowan, Machka, I, and many others have been on this forum for over a decade. You've been on this forum since March. I and apparently others have noticed that your posts have a tendency to treat others as if they are inexperienced idiots. If we were all riding in a group together and you challenged Rowan and Machka with "Have you ever ridden a century in less than ten hours" ... and then you got a flat, do you think that the people you've been rude to would want to stop to help you?

As to durability of parts: I've ridden 80,000 miles since I started randonneuring in 2005, and of that, 46,000 km was on official rides. _ALL_ of those km have been on 105 or Ultegra hubs, which you say are complete crap. So far, I have not yet adjusted or re-greased those hubs and I have seen no apparent sign of wear. I know this isn't the recommended maintenance, you're really supposed to put new grease in periodically. But so far I haven't seen any need to do that beyond "they" say you should. So ... I'd have to say that 105 and Ultegra is acceptably durable for long-distance riding.

FWIW, most of my bikes are set up with downtube shifters (DA 9 speed), Sugino 600 cranks, SRAM chain, SRAM or Shimano 11x32 cassette, Deore or Deore XT rear derailleur, and various front derailleurs from wherever. Basically, the only maintenance that I do is to put some oil on the chain when it needs it (simultaneously putting a drop on the derailleur pivots and pulleys), check for chain wear periodically and replace as needed, and occasionally clean the accumulated crap off the pulleys. I never clean my bike or chain. I'm not saying this is recommended, but it works well enough for me. My chains last 2 or 3 thousand miles and since I replace them as soon as the Park chain wear tester slips between the links, my cassettes seem to last about 15 thousand miles. Though I've replaced cranksets as chain rings wear, the "worn out" cranksets are still in use on commuter bikes. Bike parts nowadays are vastly longer lasting and require considerably less maintenance and fiddling than they did in the early 70's when I first started riding a lot.

Nick

Bandera 05-24-14 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krobinson103 (Post 16757031)
Currently running entry level specs (2300/sora) and its quite frankly not up to the the task I need to perform.

As others noted having a dedicated town bike is a practical & inexpensive way to get about w/o piling miles on the distance machine.
I'm w/ C_42 on riding FG, it's not for everyone but it's good training as well as durable inexpensive kit.

Your 2300/Sora wasn't designed for high mileage usage but it's a trickle down of higher spec Shimano design and will wear out faster, but when it works it works just fine. As an old school factory trained bike mechanic I still believe in the "annual overhaul" to re-pack all bearing surfaces, replace all cables & questionable components to start the season w/ the bike in as prime of a state as possible. In season only worn kit gets replaced as necessary w/ keeping the primary machine clean and ready for the next event with no question as to reliability.
Keeping a log will help w/ routine maintenance, a glance will remind one to get that chain or tire replaced before an event w/ no time stress or standing around in the rain 50 miles from nowhere with a needless failure.

You know that your kit is "not up to the task" of high mileage use, a careful selection of higher spec gear is readily available. All it takes is $$$ but reliability is built in if maintained properly. The reliability of the proven Shimano old-school user serviceable cup/cone hub design is not in question and never has been. Higher spec gives better polish & superior materials but all will spin smoothly for years w/ normal service.

-Bandera

Rowan 05-24-14 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandera (Post 16788478)
As others noted having a dedicated town bike is a practical & inexpensive way to get about w/o piling miles on the distance machine.
I'm w/ C_42 on riding FG, it's not for everyone but it's good training as well as durable inexpensive kit.

Your 2300/Sora wasn't designed for high mileage usage but it's a trickle down of higher spec Shimano design and will wear out faster, but when it works it works just fine. As an old school factory trained bike mechanic I still believe in the "annual overhaul" to re-pack all bearing surfaces, replace all cables & questionable components to start the season w/ the bike in as prime of a state as possible. In season only worn kit gets replaced as necessary w/ keeping the primary machine clean and ready for the next event with no question as to reliability.
Keeping a log will help w/ routine maintenance, a glance will remind one to get that chain or tire replaced before an event w/ no time stress or standing around in the rain 50 miles from nowhere with a needless failure.

You know that your kit is "not up to the task", a careful selection of higher spec gear is readily available. All it takes is $$$ but reliability is built in if maintained properly.

-Bandera

High-distance riding does need a maintenance budget. And preventative maintenance goes a long way to removing doubts about whether something will break, and actually finishing randonnees without any mechanical issues.

I know that I have spent quite a lot of money on replacing wearable components such as tyres, brake pads, cables, chains and cassettes a long time before they are worn out so that I can do 1000s, 1200s and fleches without any distractions. Replacements might have been even in mid-season.

I don't know how many cassettes I still have lying around that are probably in quite good nick. I used to have a tool that could check wear on the sprockets, but don't anymore and haven't been able to source one (not that I have tried hard lately). The shame about this is that as usual, the sprockets that are used the most are the most worn, and the ones up and down on either side are likely still in good nick.

Ultimately, I know that krobinson wants stuff that will last a long time, but the only real solution to that is to find a component level -- whether it's DA, Ultegra or whatever -- that suits the wallet and distance desire, then budget cash for replacements at regular intervals.


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