9606

I would like to list my assumptions and then get comments on my conclusions.
Assumptions:
1. 84 hour start time
2. 13.6 mph while in the saddle
3. 1:15 off saddle time at each of 10 controls (all but Loudeac out & in, and Mortagne in)
4. 0:30 off saddle time at Mortagne Au Perche outbound (feed stop only)
5. 4:00 at Loudeac outbound, 5:00 at Loudeac inbound, and 3:00 Mortagne inbound. These times would include control time and sleep.

Conclusions:
1. 81:16 finish time. This is just the results of all the numbers.
2. I get into the Carhaix (outbound) & Brest controls PAST their closing times! By 22 minutes and 17 mins respectively. These are the only two late arrivals. Again this is just the result of the numbers but I can't quite get my head around it. Is PBP meant to be done with a big negative split? Would the control officials, or the final card reviewers not homologate me due to these two late arrivals?

(I know eating & sleeping doesn't have to be done at the controls, but they have to be done somewhere.)

9606

False alarm - the Feldman closing times don't agree with the RUSA 1200+km calculator. It looks like I make all the closing times, at least according to the RUSA calculator.

unterhausen

I plan on carrying enough food to get past Mortagne on the way out and not stopping for food until Villaines. When you get to Villaines, go to the cafeteria and let the child carry your tray around, that's why they are there and it will probably be faster. Carry some trinkets to give out, people like that

the way ACP does controle closing times, you have a lot more time to get back from Brest than you have to get there. An organizer can choose to go with constant speed closing times, which is probably what the rusa calculator is doing. So you probably are going to miss your closing times on the way out with your plan. I think you should plan on getting through controles faster, but I'm not sure. Also, if you ride with the 84 hour groups, you will almost surely average a lot faster than 13.6 over the first 100 miles. It gets hilly before Mortagne, but the rest of the first 100 miles is pretty flat. The first 600k of a 1200 is always a little stressful for me because I like to have a cushion. After that, it's easy.

Curious if you included the two secret controls? I got food at both, so I didn't get through them particularly quickly. I wasted a lot of time the first time through Mortagne. I was hoping to meet up with a friend who I had agreed to ride with, but he didn't keep up with me in the mass confusion of the start. I later realized he doesn't like to ride in groups, so since I was having a lot of fun riding in the packs, I managed to get way ahead of him. The food at Mortagne featured long lines, and they had sold out of ham subs so you had to eat hot food.

Mark W

A few comments:
- I usually average about 45 minutes for control stops with meals. Sometimes I have beaten this by eating at the sandwich (jambone) area but not always. I have a few friends who are disorganized or who like to chat who take much longer.
- your pace won't be constant. I'm usually quite a bit faster on the first 1/3 than the last 1/3. Parts of PBP are lumpier, and I don't ride quite as fast at night even though my perceived pace is the same
-sleep stops can be tricky--stop too late and you probably won't get a bed; stop too early and you're not sleepy and you have to get up and ride at 2 or 3 am. If you can't get into the sleep area without a long wait find somewhere else. If the bed area is full with a line I find a corner somewhere to sleep. I have the floor under the third table in the cafeteria reserved so please don't step on me. Have your own alarm for those times.
-although I haven't used the 84 hour start, I understand that the pace is fairly fast at first. Make sure you're comfortable with that. I know someone who dropped off, got lost, and timed out at Villainess.-look for opportunities. We ate at a mcdonalds in a control town with minimal wait and then just went through the card checkin, which is always somewhat separate from the food.
- if you can't find something ask--know the French for food, toilet, please, and thank you as a minimum. Don't wander around aimlessly like I did my first PBP. The controls are mostly school complexes with different facilities in different areas or buildings. Mostly you can navigate from the posted signs but you won't always be thinking straight.

LWaB

The 84 hour start had quite tight time limits most of the way round last time. I only got significantly ahead of control closing times in the last couple of stages. I've completed 2 x 84hr starts and 2 x 90hr starts and will be in the 90hr VS start next year.

unterhausen

Tandem?

LWaB

Yes, riding with a friend from halfway round the world. Time for a change. A recumbent or something else might be the time after that - variety keeps the PBP experience fresh.

9606

Thanks for your comments.
It seems Feldman's closing times are correct, based on 2007 ACP documentation (RUSA website, PBP wiki, timetables, 84).
According to the ACP 2007 closing times, going out is about 16.5 km/hr, coming back is 12. - 12.5, except from Villaines, when it goes as high as 15+ and as low as 14.2 km/hr. Does ACP think we get a second wind, or is the smell of the barn so strong 200 kms out that we go faster?
Also, where and when will ACP publish the 2015 closing times?
And, who publishes accurate GPS files? Does ACP? 'Leandro Leite' has files up at RideWithGPS but are they accurate?

unterhausen

the closing times are determined based on speed. Go to this calculator: LINK and choose the overall time limit you want and put in the miles and you will get the right closing times

Ok, so I never knew the time limits got tighter over the last 240km. Learn something new every day. That's probably a PBP-centric thing that never got changed. The PBP course is easier over the last 100 miles or so. Thinking about it a little more, maybe it's to accommodate sleep stops, although it would be nice if they started that at 450 km instead.

ACP doesn't post GPS files, or at least they don't endorse them. Various people post them as the time gets closer, don't know who to trust

La Tortue

From someone who over-planned, this is my optic. Don't waste your time planning arrival times. Use it on something useful. The qualifying Super Series will tell you how your PBP speeds will be. If you get through the 400/600 without being on the edge of the closing times you'll do the same on the PBP. If you struggle, barely making the cutoffs or finish exhausted then you should consider skipping 2015 or take a relaxed attitude and don't be too upset if you do not finish inside the time frame. The time allotments are very generous. Just like Mike Tyson once said, "everyone has a plan until they're hit in the face." Planning ride times falls right in that category. People rarely fail because of travel speeds or conditioning. They fail due to things like mechanicals, over sleep, or drink from the water hoses and get projectile diarrhea. Just ride.

unterhausen

I don't think there is anything wrong with plotting out the times. My approach has always been to panic and keep going, which usually works pretty well.


this is true, especially once you get to Brest. The time limits for all brevets are more than generous, I've managed to prove that to myself many times. The things that makes PBP difficult are starting at night and making friends with too many people and letting them slow you down too much. So if you are antisocial like me, that's half the battle. There is a third issue that an American has to face, food. Just looking at the control distances, you need to have something you can eat on the bike. Most American randonneurs live off of junk food from convenience stores. There are very few places like that in France. So that is an issue that should be faced ahead of time. Actually, I don't know what to suggest as far as that is concerned.

I have to say that PBP is easier than most U.S. SR series courses. This is because the ACP didn't like the American dnf rate when it rained the whole time in 2007 and said we needed more climbing. I put together the easiest route I could here in Central PA and it has approximately the same amount of climbing per mile as does PBP. If it rains the whole time in 2015, the DNF rate will be about the same, Americans just don't like to ride in the rain when they are jetlagged.

Steamer

Right. If PBP actually only has about 32K of climbing (as per RUSA: FAQ), then that is only about 43 feet per mile.

Your easiest perm, HV to BV, is 40.7 feet per mile. Tour of HV is 45.8. SI is only 65.8 but feels so much worse. 50+ miles of gravel will do that to ya, I guess.

So where does the conventional wisdom of PBP being 'quite hilly' come from? The fact that there is minimal flat riding? That most of the route is either tilted up or down? Must be gently rolling most of the way, otherwise you'd end up with a lot more than 43 feet per mile, no?

Machka 

+1

Sure, do some general planning ... but know that when you get there, you may need to toss all those plans out the window and just go with the flow.


1) Go to Europe now ... without the pressure of the PBP. I went to the UK in November 2002 ... a nice break from an early winter in Manitoba. It was the first time I had been in Europe ... the first time I had been outside North America ... the first time I had done a longish international flight and had to deal with baggage, immigration & customs, and jetlag. But when I flew over again in August 2003, I was so glad I had that prior experience. I had some idea what to expect.


2) Plan to arrive several days early. After all, you're going to Europe!! Take a couple weeks off work ... take a month! The first time I went to the PBP, I took 3 weeks. The second time I took a month. The PBP was only a small portion of my time there, I spent most of the time exploring the area.


3) If you arrive a few days early, you have time to go to the supermarkets and see what they've got. Wander the aisles. Pick up bananas, a package of cookies, granola bars, pastries, cheese ... whatever you think you might like to eat between controls. You'll have time to try the cookies, granola bars, or whatever else you find, before the ride starts to be sure you like them. Oh, and be sure to try Orangina.
You can "train" for this by doing the same thing in your own supermarkets ... wander the aisles and see what they've got. From my experience, Carrefour (France's big supermarket) isn't much different from the ones I've encountered in Canada and Australia. And get used to eating things like fruit, cheese, croissants, pastries, etc. on your rides.


4) Ride in all sorts of conditions now. And ride lots. Get really comfortable over long distances in all sorts of terrain and weather conditions.
One of the big differences for me between the 2003 PBP and the 2007 PBP was the quantity of cycling I had done leading up to the events.
In the 2003 PBP year, I racked up 10,000+ km (11,725 km ... with approx. 7500 km prior to the PBP), and prior to the PBP I was cycling centuries and longer just about every weekend plus a lot of shorter faster cycling during the week (19 centuries and longer rides).
In the 2007 PBP year, I only managed between 6000 and 7000 km (I don't have the totals in front of me right now) (7254 km ... with approx. 5500 km prior to the PBP), and certainly had nowhere near the number of centuries and longer rides under my belt (only 12).



It's not "quite hilly" ... it's "undulating". Up down up down up down up down up down up down ... and not particularly gently either. They're steep undulations. As I recall, there are only a couple longer, more gradual climbs.

There are flatish sections, but if you're riding along in a flatish area and you spot a church in the distance, you can bet the ride route will take you there, and that "there" will be at the top of a steep climb. And there's a good chance your control will be at the top of another steep climb.

unterhausen

the climbing is mostly in the middle 3rd.

there are a couple of steep climbs, and they are just long enough to be a bit of a grind. We don't really have anything like that around here, they are giant rollers. As Machka says, all the towns are on hilltops. I remember lots of flat stuff, but I also remember cresting one big hill and seeing across to the next town at the same altitude but with a valley in between and not being too happy. I think most of the hills have relatively low grades, it's just sometimes the sheer number of hills is a bit much. The nice thing is there isn't a stop sign at the bottom like there would be around here, and a lot of times the grind doesn't really start until fairly far up the hill. Perfect for 'bents.

9606

unter - the calculator from you link does not agree with the 2007 ACP PBP closing times. As I mentioned, Feldman's calculator is based on 2007 ACP times. Though his starting time needs a little jiggering, as you mentioned.

I haven't been hit in the face yet, so I will continue to plan and eat Little Debbies so my digestive system can accommodate the French pastries!

unterhausen

Apparently the ACP doesn't follow their own rules for PBP. But the main difference I saw was the opening times, seems like they don't want people going too fast. There are no doubt issues with simply staffing and supporting the controls that make them change the times around. That's a problem that no other 1200k has.

French pastries are great, but you have to hit the bakery at opening time because they get wiped out fast. And they don't have coffee. I always wondered if the local populace gets annoyed with the bakeries getting wiped out before they wake up.

Cafes are good, I think they are at the top of their game for PBP

thebulls

ACP said no such thing. And nearly all of the routes that DCR uses were designed before 2007: Same is probably true in most other regions, too. The country with really high DNF rates in 2007: France. It's tough to keep going when the ride goes by your house :-)

High US DNF rates two decades ago under International Randonneurs did cause the French to require two SR series to qualify for the subsequent PBP, maybe that's what you are thinking about.

thebulls

Do they state what they used to measure "32,000 feet"? I've ridden PBP twice, the first time measuring 39,000 feet and the second time 46,000 feet (note, the first try at PBP ended 720 miles in at Dreux so I've added on the climbing for the last 40 miles to make the totals comparable; this adds a small amount of additional measurement error). Both times were using a Garming eTrex with built-in altimiter. FWIW, I measured BMB as having 38,000 feet.

I'm not claiming any of these numbers are "more correct" than RUSA's #, but would just note that you can get huge differences in climbing measurements under different conditions, different instruments, different measurement frequency, and different definitions of when to start counting an upward movement as "climbing" versus measurement error.

thebulls

Without knowing anything about your completion times on 600's (and how tough those 600's were, and whether you were riding as hard as you can or dawdling to ride with slower friends), nor how fast you are in controls, nor how much sleep you need, it seems almost impossible to be able to say anything about whether your ride plan is feasible or not.

Steamer

No, they don't. And your point is well taken about accuracy issues.

All it says (near the bottom of the page) is: (my emphasis):

unterhausen

It really depends on what kind of climber you are. For me, most of the hills on PBP are short enough that I can muscle over them. The biggest climb (Roc'h Trevezel) is about 900 feet, but in 2011 we had a tail wind and I rode up that in my big chain ring. Otherwise there is 300 foot climb after 300 foot climb. Granted, some of them get a little steep. For me, the problem is eating enough that I can keep rolling over hills like that. But I suggest not listening to me, because I was always happy if I had read someone's complaints about a section of the course and then I found it fairly easy. The ride outbound out of Loudiac comes to mind. I actually did a bonus hill there and still didn't mind that section, but it's not too hard to find people lamenting its difficulty

Machka 

Regarding the climbing ... it does depend what you're used to. I came from the flatlands of Manitoba where overpasses are big climbs. And really the only other climbing I had done was on the RM1200 where you might be on a climb for an hour but it's only 4 or 5%. So I found the PBP climbs to be particularly steep and just long enough that I struggled to power over them. Both times I recall thinking that there were an awful lot of those sorts of climbs.

If we're talking preparation for the PBP, I'd recommend including 'powering up steep climbs' as part of the training.

MilesDealer

From what I can deduce from your initial and follow up posts, this will be your first 1200km. If that's the case then I'd say it's a no brainer, take the 90 hour start. You have no idea how your body will handle a 1200km distance and even a 600km will leave you in the dark. For instance I never had even a hint of knee pain on my 5 600km's, most of them mountainous. But on all three of my 1200's my knee pain over the last 150 miles often put me in my lowest gear on the mildest of inclines.

IMO your "plan" needs to consist of a few general principles. Don't go out too fast the first day. Keep your stops as short as possible. If you NEED to get off the bike because of exhaustion or sleep deprivation, then by all means do it. Sometimes just an hour off the bike changes everything. OTOH, keep moving when you can. The time you bank the first two days will give you options for the last two days. Ride from control to control.

WORD OF WARNING - When you have a plan that's as specific as yours, what do you do when you get behind schedule? Once you get discouraged on a ride this difficult then you may be only one flat tire from abandoning.

Machka 

+1