Minimum training for a 200k
09-20-14, 10:00 PM
#26
Professional Fuss-Budget
Your terms here are a bit obscure.
Are you talking about moving average and time, or elapsed average and time (i.e. total time, start to finish, including stops)?
AFAIK most rando events have a time limit -- and that is based off of elapsed time. E.g. the NJ Randonneurs did a mostly 200k with a time limit of 13.5 hours, which means that including stops you have to average at least 9.2 mph.
Anyway. What I'd be concerned about isn't so much your general fitness, it's that ramping up too much mileage too quickly can result in an overuse injury. In your 20s and even 30s, you can bounce back from that reasonably quickly. In your 40s and later, not so much.
It's also not like the only 200k ever will be offered in October. I'd recommend setting a more reasonable goal, and going for a 200k early next year.
Are you talking about moving average and time, or elapsed average and time (i.e. total time, start to finish, including stops)?
AFAIK most rando events have a time limit -- and that is based off of elapsed time. E.g. the NJ Randonneurs did a mostly 200k with a time limit of 13.5 hours, which means that including stops you have to average at least 9.2 mph.
Anyway. What I'd be concerned about isn't so much your general fitness, it's that ramping up too much mileage too quickly can result in an overuse injury. In your 20s and even 30s, you can bounce back from that reasonably quickly. In your 40s and later, not so much.
It's also not like the only 200k ever will be offered in October. I'd recommend setting a more reasonable goal, and going for a 200k early next year.
09-21-14, 10:12 PM
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Your terms here are a bit obscure.
Are you talking about moving average and time, or elapsed average and time (i.e. total time, start to finish, including stops)?
AFAIK most rando events have a time limit -- and that is based off of elapsed time. E.g. the NJ Randonneurs did a mostly 200k with a time limit of 13.5 hours, which means that including stops you have to average at least 9.2 mph.
Anyway. What I'd be concerned about isn't so much your general fitness, it's that ramping up too much mileage too quickly can result in an overuse injury. In your 20s and even 30s, you can bounce back from that reasonably quickly. In your 40s and later, not so much.
It's also not like the only 200k ever will be offered in October. I'd recommend setting a more reasonable goal, and going for a 200k early next year.
Are you talking about moving average and time, or elapsed average and time (i.e. total time, start to finish, including stops)?
AFAIK most rando events have a time limit -- and that is based off of elapsed time. E.g. the NJ Randonneurs did a mostly 200k with a time limit of 13.5 hours, which means that including stops you have to average at least 9.2 mph.
Anyway. What I'd be concerned about isn't so much your general fitness, it's that ramping up too much mileage too quickly can result in an overuse injury. In your 20s and even 30s, you can bounce back from that reasonably quickly. In your 40s and later, not so much.
It's also not like the only 200k ever will be offered in October. I'd recommend setting a more reasonable goal, and going for a 200k early next year.
09-22-14, 08:01 AM
#28
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Do you have a plan for getting home if you can't continue at the midpoint? And will you be put off from trying again if you either fail to finish or finish outside the time limit?
If the answer to the first is yes and the second is no, go for it. If you finish, yay! If you learn some lessons about what you need to do to finish, that's good too.
If the answer to the first is yes and the second is no, go for it. If you finish, yay! If you learn some lessons about what you need to do to finish, that's good too.
09-22-14, 09:43 AM
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The question about bailing halfway through is a good one. Take lights and reflective gear even if you think you don't need them. I have known of people that took 17 hours to finish a 200k.
09-22-14, 10:28 AM
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The OP does not have the endurance built up for a 200K and is not training in the pain cave. 14 mph and no long rides in years is going to put the OP in the pain cave for the 200K.
09-22-14, 11:04 AM
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I did 203 miles at Calvin's Challenge with longest ride prior being a 200K
My first 600K was completed with longest ride prior, that same year, being a 200K.
IME, endurance doesn't actually develop from riding a long time in training. There is no specific physical training effect from riding a long time, other than perhaps developing tolerance for sitting on the bike. The bigger benefit from doing longer rides is learning lessons about pacing, fueling, etc.
I am not the only person who thinks this. For example, here is what Chris Kostman has to say (from: The Endurance Path Revisited by Chris Kostman ) :
DON’T BUY THE BIG MILEAGE LIE
It is a lie that ultra racers need to train 400 to 1000 miles a week to prepare for ultra races. This is another myth perpetrated by RAAM racers who think it makes their cycling accomplishments seem more impressive. Farther is not better. In fact, it is counter-productive and does more harm than good to ride more than 300-400 miles a week in training. There is absolutely no physiological rationale for training mega miles in cycling. On any given ride, there’s zero fitness benefit to riding more than about 80 miles.
The actual benefit to riding over 80 miles, like 200 miles or more, is that you learn how your body reacts, or breaks down, from the long hours out there: Do you get saddle sores? Does your neck hurt? Do you start feeling queasy and throw up because you’re eating and drinking the wrong stuff, or wrong combination of stuff? Do your hands, fingers, feet, or other extremities go numb? These are the important things you learn from riding really far on occasion.
DON’T WASTE YOUR MILES
Lots of ultra racers talk about quality over quantity, but it’s mostly just that: talk. How many of them know their anaerobic or lactate thresholds, regularly do structured intervals, compete in traditional bike races, or even train with speedy club rides?
Almost none, and in my opinion it’s because they're scared of the competition and finding out they’re not as fast as they think they are.
It's very simple: you can either have quality or quantity miles. Make them count.
When I completed RAAM at age 20 in 1987, I only rode or raced 100 miles at once on five occasions in the eight months prior to RAAM. Instead of just riding lots and lots of miles like my competitors, I competed in USCF races, in triathlons, and in mountain bike races, plus I trained weekly with a racing club and took a racing class at the velodrome. I rarely rode even 300 miles a week, let alone more than that. That approach helped me to ride faster and to sleep 2 to 3 times more per night than my competitors when I completed RAAM. I also had more fun! (Jonathan Boyer used the same approach when he won RAAM in 1985 and then again in 2006 at age 50.)
It is a lie that ultra racers need to train 400 to 1000 miles a week to prepare for ultra races. This is another myth perpetrated by RAAM racers who think it makes their cycling accomplishments seem more impressive. Farther is not better. In fact, it is counter-productive and does more harm than good to ride more than 300-400 miles a week in training. There is absolutely no physiological rationale for training mega miles in cycling. On any given ride, there’s zero fitness benefit to riding more than about 80 miles.
The actual benefit to riding over 80 miles, like 200 miles or more, is that you learn how your body reacts, or breaks down, from the long hours out there: Do you get saddle sores? Does your neck hurt? Do you start feeling queasy and throw up because you’re eating and drinking the wrong stuff, or wrong combination of stuff? Do your hands, fingers, feet, or other extremities go numb? These are the important things you learn from riding really far on occasion.
DON’T WASTE YOUR MILES
Lots of ultra racers talk about quality over quantity, but it’s mostly just that: talk. How many of them know their anaerobic or lactate thresholds, regularly do structured intervals, compete in traditional bike races, or even train with speedy club rides?
Almost none, and in my opinion it’s because they're scared of the competition and finding out they’re not as fast as they think they are.
It's very simple: you can either have quality or quantity miles. Make them count.
When I completed RAAM at age 20 in 1987, I only rode or raced 100 miles at once on five occasions in the eight months prior to RAAM. Instead of just riding lots and lots of miles like my competitors, I competed in USCF races, in triathlons, and in mountain bike races, plus I trained weekly with a racing club and took a racing class at the velodrome. I rarely rode even 300 miles a week, let alone more than that. That approach helped me to ride faster and to sleep 2 to 3 times more per night than my competitors when I completed RAAM. I also had more fun! (Jonathan Boyer used the same approach when he won RAAM in 1985 and then again in 2006 at age 50.)
Once you have the skill to complete ultra events you can train for them very successfully on as little as 10-12 hours a week by shifting to higher intensity work. This also leaves more time for other parts of life. It also makes it easier to stay active in ultra racing for years without burning out as a result of all that time spent on the bike.
As some proof of this, note how well professional and high level amateur road racers do in ultra events once they have the skill and knowledge. Their training only changes slightly. Less focus on shorter supra-threshold efforts and sprints, and more on the bread and butter of aerobic training: 20-60 minute aerobic threshold work, and 2-4 hour tempo rides
As some proof of this, note how well professional and high level amateur road racers do in ultra events once they have the skill and knowledge. Their training only changes slightly. Less focus on shorter supra-threshold efforts and sprints, and more on the bread and butter of aerobic training: 20-60 minute aerobic threshold work, and 2-4 hour tempo rides
09-22-14, 11:27 AM
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sounds to me that the OP should do fine. The only thing that riding lots of 200k's taught me about distance riding is that I should expect to feel crummy between 50-100 miles. Then I figured out how to eat to avoid that for the most part. I can be a really slow learner though. I think you can be a better than average distance rider with nothing more than 20 mile rides. Obviously, there are things about eating, fit, and other aspects of the ride that aren't going to be learned doing that. However, with regards to fitness, lots of short, fast rides has worked for me.
09-22-14, 12:44 PM
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Just an update, I managed to comfortably finish a 100k today in 4 hours and 40 minutes. I kept a pace of 12.6 mph and still felt pretty good when I finshed. Course only had about 1700 feet of climbing though and the North Park 200 has something like 7500 of climbing. The slower pace made a huge difference in my endurance but I am still pretty worried about all of the climbing I will have in the 200.the advice here has even pretty helpful. Thanks for
The help.
The help.
I would suggest that you make yourself an out-and-back cue sheet from Jim's route and go ride out to the 50 or 60km point and then back to the start (or maybe there's a way to shortcut onto the return part of Jim's route). Then the next weekend ride 20km further before turning back. By doing this, you have a better chance to evaluate how you do on the actual terrain, plus you familiarize yourself with the route. You could even make the second out-and-back start by reversing the cue sheet from the end, so that when you're riding on the "back" portion you are riding the final 70 or 80km of the route so you're familiar with the beginning and end of the ride.
I would suggest riding with less of a focus on your speedometer and more of a focus on how you are feeling. You want to ride at a sustainable pace. If you go out too hard at the start, it doesn't mean you can't finish, but it does mean you will have many hours of suffering while you slowly replenish your stores. I usually ride with a heart rate monitor and try to keep my heart rate at least 10 beats below lactate threshold. That way I'm not drawing on my glycogen stores.
It's entirely possible to ride a 200km with very little training. I have a good friend whose schedule just made it very difficult to get any riding done between 200's, so his training plan was "ride a 200km, wait a month, ride another." But to do that, you have to be very experienced at knowing what your body can do, and how to avoid making mistakes that torpedo your ride.
Many, many times my own personal training between 200's has just consisted of commuting back and forth to work, usually about 100 miles a week total with about 5000 feet of climbing. But I'm a very experienced randonneur so I usually don't make mistakes that torpedo my ride.
For me, the three watchphrases of randonneuring are: "maximum sustainable pace", "relentless forward motion," and "the two week rule". I've already talked about sustainable pace--obviously, you can't ride faster than your sustainable pace, but it's also important on longer events (like a 1000km) not to ride too much below your sustainable pace, because then you cut into sleep time. "Relentless forward motion" means that you should do everything you can to minimize stoppage time and keep moving forward. Eat on the bike when you can, and rest and recover on the bike by easing off on the pace. "The two week rule" says don't worry about pain if it is something you can recover from in two weeks. So a butt that is so sore it makes you groan every time you sit back down after standing on a climb -- probably safe to ignore since it will get better in two weeks. Knees that are in agony with every pedal stroke -- probably worth considering carefully whether it's time to call the RBA and tell him/her you are DNF'ing. Ligament/tendon injuries take a loooong time to heal, a lot longer than two weeks. Better to DNF and try again in a couple of weeks than to finish your first and last rando event with so much damage you never try again.
FWIW, I just finished a tough 1000km a few weeks ago (Jim also rode it). I definitely got the chance to apply the two week rule, since my butt was pretty sore by the end of the first day and despite liberal application of lantiseptic and chamois butt'r, stayed pretty sore for the next two days. So it hurt like hell to stand on a hill and then have to sit back down on the saddle again, but I knew it wasn't causing any serious damage, just pain! (The shorts I wore on the first day will never get used for randonneuring again!) Similarly, my knees hurt a little through the whole ride, for whatever reason I just haven't been able to get the seat height adjusted quite correctly. But it was only mild pain along the top of my kneecap that I was pretty sure was not causing ligament damage and would be gone in a couple of days after the ride, which turned out to be correct. I've had knee pain in the tendons that has made me DNF a 1000 and a 1200, but this knee pain was different.
Nick
Last edited by thebulls; 09-22-14 at 12:54 PM.
09-22-14, 02:20 PM
#35
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FWIW, I think this is essentially the route:
09/08/2012 Sandy lake 200K - McCandless Township, Pennsylvania
(note: this plot is two years old, and there may be some differences between this and the official route as per the cue sheet).
09/08/2012 Sandy lake 200K - McCandless Township, Pennsylvania
(note: this plot is two years old, and there may be some differences between this and the official route as per the cue sheet).
09-22-14, 03:08 PM
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Just an update, I managed to comfortably finish a 100k today in 4 hours and 40 minutes. I kept a pace of 12.6 mph and still felt pretty good when I finshed. Course only had about 1700 feet of climbing though and the North Park 200 has something like 7500 of climbing. The slower pace made a huge difference in my endurance but I am still pretty worried about all of the climbing I will have in the 200.the advice here has even pretty helpful. Thanks for
The help.
The help.
7500 ft of climbing is significant for a 200k. Here is a ride I did in June. I was fighting a cold that day, which affected me some, and a portion of the ride was at elevation over 5000 ft.
Bike Ride Profile | Bull Shifter Grand Tour Training Ride near Congress | Times and Records | Strava
I would say to get in what hill work you can during the next week or so.
09-22-14, 05:11 PM
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FWIW, I think this is essentially the route:
09/08/2012 Sandy lake 200K - McCandless Township, Pennsylvania
09/08/2012 Sandy lake 200K - McCandless Township, Pennsylvania
09-22-14, 05:54 PM
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This might seem like blog shilling, but here it goes anwyay: How Little Can You Ride and Still Do Rando? | The Rothrock Cyrcle of Hell
Basically, it's largely a mental game, as long as you know how to pace yourself and can tolerate sitting on the bike for 10-13 hours or so.
...
Basically, it's largely a mental game, as long as you know how to pace yourself and can tolerate sitting on the bike for 10-13 hours or so.
...
Last year I tried riding a double century on my road bike after having done two on recumbents earlier in the year (and five on recumbents the year prior). After ~2mo of conditioning on the road bike, I rode a 200k (Sierra Century) on it and felt fine aerobically at the end, but was pretty sore. Several weeks later I tried the double century (Alta Alpina Challenge) and popped at ~175mi, totally wiped out and unable to sit on the saddle. A month later I tried yet another double (Mt. Tam Double) and finished feeling good, though my whole body felt much more fatigued than when I'd ridden it on the recumbent the year prior.
Dunno if riding recumbents on ultra events is cheating, but its the way I'll keep riding them. I should probably toughen up so that I can do them on road bikes (99% of the rest of the finishers are) as easily, but I'm soft.
09-22-14, 06:19 PM
#39
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I think there is a huge difference between recumbents and road bikes in respect to the above.
Last year I tried riding a double century on my road bike after having done two on recumbents earlier in the year (and five on recumbents the year prior). After ~2mo of conditioning on the road bike, I rode a 200k (Sierra Century) on it and felt fine aerobically at the end, but was pretty sore. Several weeks later I tried the double century (Alta Alpina Challenge) and popped at ~175mi, totally wiped out and unable to sit on the saddle. A month later I tried yet another double (Mt. Tam Double) and finished feeling good, though my whole body felt much more fatigued than when I'd ridden it on the recumbent the year prior.
Dunno if riding recumbents on ultra events is cheating, but its the way I'll keep riding them. I should probably toughen up so that I can do them on road bikes (99% of the rest of the finishers are) as easily, but I'm soft.
Last year I tried riding a double century on my road bike after having done two on recumbents earlier in the year (and five on recumbents the year prior). After ~2mo of conditioning on the road bike, I rode a 200k (Sierra Century) on it and felt fine aerobically at the end, but was pretty sore. Several weeks later I tried the double century (Alta Alpina Challenge) and popped at ~175mi, totally wiped out and unable to sit on the saddle. A month later I tried yet another double (Mt. Tam Double) and finished feeling good, though my whole body felt much more fatigued than when I'd ridden it on the recumbent the year prior.
Dunno if riding recumbents on ultra events is cheating, but its the way I'll keep riding them. I should probably toughen up so that I can do them on road bikes (99% of the rest of the finishers are) as easily, but I'm soft.
I do think that long rides have some value for developing this kind of 'tolerance' conditioning. It's a nice happenstance that recumbents minimize that issue.
For a change of pace, I have been riding my uprights most of the time over the last 6 months or so. But I will only ride randonees on my recumbents. I am just simply happier on them.
09-22-14, 06:22 PM
#40
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Contrast this to this past Saturday, where it was death by fruit pie.
09-25-14, 09:49 PM
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This is all very helpful for me to think about.
09-25-14, 09:53 PM
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Thanks,
Don
09-26-14, 05:28 AM
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One: (Either do this on a trainer or find a route where you can ride for twenty minutes with no traffic lights or significant stops.) You're going to ride at a time trial pace for half an hour -- in other words, you are riding as hard as you can ride for that half hour. Leave your heart rate monitor (HRM) off for the first ten minutes then switch it on for the final 20. Your average pace over the final 20 is LT. Probably best to keep the HRM hidden during the final 20 minutes so you don't let your observation of the HR help you "decide" whether you are going as hard as you can or not.
Two: Subjectively, LT is about the point where conversation starts to get ragged. You can still talk flowingly as you get up towards LT. As you exceed LT you start to find it hard to talk flowingly and the further you get above LT, the fewer words you can get out before having to take a breath. If you don't have a riding partner, maybe memorize a speech and try to present it as you ride: We shall fight on the beaches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"
10-01-14, 10:15 PM
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Well, another update based on the advice here. I managed another 100k last weekend with no problems but I pushed my average speed up .6 MPH which made me noticeably more tired when I finished so I'll drop back to 12.5 MPH target average speed for a 200k. I also have added in some intervals for short training to build up endurance a bit. Measured my LT at about 135 - 140 BPM. Will target a sustained heart rate of about 122 - 125 BPM on average for a 200k (funny thing is this is about what I was doing anyway so I guess I naturally migrated to near the pace I needed to be). I will not be able to ride the North Park 200 route now as originally planned due to family commitments but I mapped out a pretty flat 200k route from Pittsburgh to Wheeling WV and back that loosely follows much of the Ohio river. I am going to give that a shot as soon as my schedule allows.
Thanks for all of your advice here!
Thanks for all of your advice here!
10-01-14, 10:29 PM
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for whatever reason I just haven't been able to get the seat height adjusted quite correctly. But it was only mild pain along the top of my kneecap that I was pretty sure was not causing ligament damage and would be gone in a couple of days after the ride, which turned out to be correct. I've had knee pain in the tendons that has made me DNF a 1000 and a 1200, but this knee pain was different.
Nick
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