Heathpack 

Yep on the DOW, I am in the 3:30am start time on Sat. Yep on the club being AV, I think the 3:30 people might just be exclusively AV members, around 12-15 of us. So if I can't/don't hang with them, I'm on my own. Rumor is that they are faster guys, I'm the only woman. I'm not going to kill myself trying to hang with them. I think the guys in my start time are mostly from the San Diego chapter, they may be the guys who dropped you, lol.

Heathpack 

Well, I couldn't make a decision, so I ordered the Voler jacket and the Showers Pass Elite 2. On top of the Gore jacket that's already coming. Once I have all three in hand, I'll pick one and send to other two back. Time is getting short, dithering was getting me nowhere.

I also ordered a Mammut Burney headlight for my helmet, that's what one of the more experienced guys had last weekend, so at least I know it should suit my purposes.

hamster

In my last double, AV guys were actually slower than average. People attempting DOW with the 3:30 start time are probably not particularly fast. Fastest riders are generally discouraged from starting at the earliest time, because they would end up reaching rest stops before volunteers get there.

Heathpack 

The reason the start times are what they are has been explained above. It has nothing to do in this instance with who is fast and who is not. These are not rider-selected start times.

hamster

Right. I see that now. Very weird club decision. I don't think I got any instructions regarding start times from the organizers.

You are worrying to much about the rain. The chance of rain is pretty low and you can get rain gear during the week before the ride, if the forecast actually starts showing a chance of rain. Most likely it'll be dry and above 50 F the entire ride.

More than half of the route is completely flat. I would advise you to get clip-on aero bars and to practice riding on them a few times. (They tend to be fatiguing for the upper body, so you can't ride on them too long, but practice helps).

Do you see any of the guys you expect to start with in this list? https://www.mtnhighcycling.com/Ride_R...014Riders.aspx What are their times?

Heathpack 

I'm actually not "worried" about the rain. This is a very common BF mis-interpretation of someone asking questions about something. Its just that I've been preparing for this ride for 6 weeks and I'd hate to DNF because of a little rain. I need a rain jacket, so I might as well get one now. The Oceanside Double which you link to above was what got us started talking about rain. The weather made that ride epic, even though the most probable thing was that it would be dry and above 50 degrees the entire time. Except that day it wasn't. The people that rode it were able to ride it because they had rain gear.

I have ridden the entirety of the DOW route now, most sections multiple times. So I am pretty familiar with the terrain, which was one of the purposes of the training rides. Zero chance I would suddenly try aero bars 3 weeks before the event. I'm actually done with all my long rides at this point, there would be no time to get used to them to the extent that I personally would require. One of my clubmates does ride doubles with aerobars and we talked about them on Saturday's ride. I'm open to it, just not a change I would make right now.

I'm not too concerned about who is in my start time. We will either ride together or we will not.

hamster

I rode that double and my only rain-specific items were a couple of ziploc bags and a heavy jacket (Specialized Deflect Hybrid) that I bought one day before the ride. (I had another rainproof jacket but this one was better because it looked warm as well as rainproof, and it was on sale.)
My point is, you don't get weather like that out of the blue. Rain and wind were clearly in the forecast several days before the ride. I try to check the forecast periodically before the ride and then pack conservatively (if there's a chance of rain, assume that it will rain. If the forecast is for 50 F, assume that it might get to 40-45.)
Fenders' only function is to keep the spray from the rear wheel away from your butt. Instead of fenders (or in addition to fenders), if it looks like it might rain, consider bringing spare dry socks. Shoe covers may be useful too but it did not get cold enough at ODC to need them.
As to being concerned about people in your start group. If they are really strong, it's OK to let them drop you. If they are not, you should put in extra effort to keep up with them. Going too easy during the first half and running out of time is as much a risk as going too hard and accidentally burning out. DOW is not a particularly hard route and you seem to be in a good shape, and 3:30 start time is so early that you'd be unlikely to run out of time, but it's still helpful to have proper strategy.

Heathpack 

Right and my point is that I don't have a rain jacket. So it is not "worrying" about the weather to get a jacket in advance rather than waiting until the day prior. Its just being prepared.

Of course I understand about checking the weather. I am the person who for the training ride who posts the expected temperature at each location during the time at which I expect we'll be there. Really basic stuff. My point is trying to anticipate now (within reason) the type of gear that I might need during a ride that time of year. And not be scrambling trying to procure it the day before the ride.

bigfred 

Heathpack,

It sounds like the AV crowd are well sorted. You've been riding and training with a few of the members for a while now. They know your abilities. Possibly better than you know yourself. I suspect you'll be just fine in your starting group.

Ask your club's organizer if there is any sort of designated group leader and/or tail end charly. If so, communicate with them early and often during the early stages of the ride. If they intend to ride it as a group it's far better to know that you need to adjust the pace early on, instead of waiting until someone has blown up. Don't be surprised if within the group there are one or two draft horses that have to be reined in. That's not infrequently part of such an equation. And it pays to remember that isn't about you or your ability, but, The Groups. In every group there has to be a limiting factor. That may or may not be you. (I suspect it won't be;-)

If there isn't a designated rider in charge, still don't hesitate to communicate to the group as a whole. Something to the effect of, "Guys, this is a bit quick for me. I may have to let you go, unless you're interested in slowing the pace x%." Again, communicate early. Chances are going to be pretty good that if you're challenged, so are others within the group. Think of it as a public service announcement.

I really wouldn't rely on anything from a convenience store or restaurant. Stick with what you know and in frequent, small portions. It might just be me, but, I don't respond well to "loading up" at a rest stop, store or restaurant. Much less, on stuff I may not be familliar with. Either carry it with you or get Mr. H to do a midway or 2/3 resupply sag. Organized within your club group, everyone might appreciate such a service:-)

Have a good time. It sounds as though you are well prepared.

anotherbrian

Isn't this just the second year for Dead of Winter? I think that may explain why it _sounds_ a bit disorganized (I remember last year what I heard about it, in the months leading up, it was being positioned as a small workers'ish ride and on a shoe-string then got slammed by everyone who wanted to do it), but it's run by the same folks that put on the very popular/well regarded Grand Tour, so I don't think there is anything to be worried about at all.

My tip for success: eat early and often. Don't stop eating. Don't overeat, but also don't wait three hours to have a mini-meal. Especially if your husband can provide sag services, get restocked with a couple hours of food on a schedule, and make sure you eat through it in that time. It takes awhile to bonk, but it really sucks when it happens an hour from the finish, and just quitting and trying again some other day enters your mind as being an option (vs suffering through the recovery).

And if your husband is sag'ing, load him up with everything you could ever imagine you'd need. Extra everything. As you shed layers, don't carry anything more than you need that could cause frustration. A personal sag on something like the low land Grand Tour route sounds like a double with an Easy Button, but honestly I wish I could have done my first double under such conditions.

anotherbrian

And my perception of the AV crowd, who I've mostly seen on Death Valley Doubles, is they're a rolling party. While a few go off the front, the majority just cruise the rides at a pace that lets them finish within the time limits.

Heathpack 

Its not the lowland Grand Tour route. It's a combo of the lowland & the highland routes. 8200 ft climbing.

Not sure if I failed to post this above or if I posted but you didn't catch it, but I am eating every 15 minutes on the bike. My question about meals had to do with eating in addition to my normal on-bike calorie consumption. However since I originally started this thread, I've done a series of training rides on the course, ranging from 80-135 miles. Felt very strong on each of those right up until the end, I feel like I have a pretty good sense of the kinds of off-bike things I will eat.

Trying to work details of the SAG, but right now I'd need SAG more for gear, we could easily have a 40 degree temp swing on the ride. Will be really nice to jettison excess gear.

I rode the Grand Tour double metric last June, so I'm familiar with LA Wheelmen. I have also talked to the guy running this ride several times since I first posted. The lack of rules is intentional, he feels like there's a proliferation of over-organized rides, he's trying to be the opposite of that. When I asked him what the time limit was, he said there isn't one, "well, actually it would be great if you were off the course before the Sunday riders start, so I guess the time limit is 24 hours". Lol.

anotherbrian

Start of the thread was TL;DR, sorry.

But it comes down to figuring out how many calories your body can comfortably process per hour, and eating that many. Don't "wait" to eat off the bike ... just roll those calories into your hourly requirement and eat them during the hour. You don't want to overload your gut with too many calories at once, and if you are eating on the bike there should be no need to.

While I think it is an unappealing way to "eat" on a ride, the Hammer products that are so popular on doubles lets you dial in just the calories you need and consume them hour after hour. It really does simplify the nutrition portion of the ride if your stomach can handle it (mine does now, and I relied on it all through 2013 ... the Davis Double, the only ride I did that year that didn't have Hammer required me to improvise with real food :-) ).

...and I missed last years Dead of Winter because of Kermit's preference for phone calls rather than emails. Ah, the difficulties of "registering". :-)

anotherbrian

Stan's (brain fading on his screen name here) videos of his California Triple Crown ride reports, with his zip-lock bag feeding strategy is an awesome example of how to eat on the bike. I dunno if I could process as much raw fruit as he does on a ride, but he's clicked through at least 50 doubles so far, so it must work.

Maybe someone could link to them ... I can't recall seeing any of his videos this last year.

Heathpack 

BTW, I got a call yesterday that I was being given the option of switching to the 4:30 start time after all. I took it, at least I will have some solid peeps to start with. From there we'll have to see how the day plays itself out.

Rick@OCRR

Hi Heathpack,

Just found this thread and clicked over here from the SoCal DOWD thread. I know several of the AV riders . . . but not a lot. I do know Kermit (the organizer of ths ride) and in both cases . . . good people you can trust. Should be a really fun ride.

I'm starting at 4:30 AM or as close to it as possible. I'll be wearing CAL Triple Crown kit and riding a white KHS bike. Hope to see you out there!

Rick / OCRR

hochflynn

Nothing to add to the conversation, other than I found it very interesting. Replying so that I will get the "report" once the ride is completed. Best of luck. I think you are going to do great.

Heathpack 

Hi all, had a great time on yesterday's ride. Here's the story as promised.

I joined Adobo Velo in summer and rode one of their organized club century rides back then, knew a few people in the club but I had otherwise not ridden with them until I started training for the Dead of Winter Double. Back in October, I was trying to put together a training group, contacted the guy organizing the AV mass registration for this ride & he put me in touch with a guy from the Ventura chapter who was trying to do the same thing. We really hit it off, and it turned out we ride very compatibly, this guy Jerold was also riding his first double. I mostly trained with he & Gee, we make a great group, although Gee is stronger than Jerold & I. We also trained some with four newby double riders from the SF Valley chapter. From those training rides, we figured out that we'd probably ride faster than the Valley guys. So the tentative game plan was to start together as a group of 7, then likely break into a group of three and a group of four. Lol, we literally lost the Valley guys at the start, they took a little longer than us to get rolling and missed the light out of the parking lot. We figured they'd catch us soon enough but we never saw them again all day, although we kept in touch via text. They were snakebit from the beginning, with four flats in the first 35 miles and their strongest rider sidelined with a muscle injury. Two of them DNF, although they picked up a crowd of AV riders & rode with them all day. They finished around 1am, tired but very happy.

Anyway, here's out start group, that's me on the left side of the pic in the hi viz wind vest:



Gee rode off strong and Jerold & I lost him early, although we regrouped at the first rest stop. It was really beautiful riding along the PCH in the pre-dawn darkness, with a full moon reflecting off the ocean. Quiet, very little traffic, just awesome. We were riding in the vicinity of another guy in an AV kit, riding the same pace as us, so we struck us a conversation. His name is Ed, riding his 42nd double. He was in a bad crash two years ago during the Furnace Creek 508 (at least that's what I think he said). Was seriously injured and has spent 2014 making a comeback. Anyway, what a score. Awesome guy to ride with, we rode together all day and finished together.

We hoped to ride a 15 mph pace and rolled into the first rest stop right on schedule. We regrouped with Gee and were really happy to see a whole bunch of AV riders. The club was putting in a century that day which got cancelled due to a rockslide on the course, so a bunch of guys came out to pull us to the second rest stop. Sweet! Tons of fun, maybe 15 of us now, plus two non-AV riders who we picked up along the way and off & on rode with throughout the day. Arrived rest stop two, 60 miles in, right at 8:30am, still on pace and happy. The AV crowd peeled off except for one guy who'd done some training rides with us, he rode most of the way to the third checkpoint with us.

My husband (Mr SAG) met us with some subs at 11:30 at checkpoint three, we were now 100 miles in and everyone was riding strong. I didnt want to eat too much, we had a long 15-20 mile gradual uphill to Ojai, so I just ate 1/2 of a mini turkey and cheese sub, very plain. Maybe 10 bites. Sorry I did because I don't think I digested that sub for 9 hours, it just sat there in my stomach forever. I did eat/drink regularly on the bike, my routine that I had practiced was Cliff Bloks and Skratch every 15 minutes, to give me 1 bottle water plus or minus and 250 calories total per hour. My plan was to eat whatever other calories I could at the rest stops. Rest stop one I had 1/4 bagel, rest stop two a banana and rest stop three part of that sub. By the time we got to rest stop four, at the 120 mile mark, I couldn't really eat anything. Just about a one inch piece of brownie and then a little coke to get some more calories in me. Didn't feel too bad, just full, and we had the Casitas Pass climb coming up, which is about 3 miles at 5%, the only real climb of the day, the rest of the climbing was either gradual 2-4% stuff or rollers/short hills. We met @Rick@OCRR at rest stop four, tha was great to put a name with a face.

Mr SAG met us at the top of Casiitas Pass. Now I had a bit of a stomach ache, just drank a little bit of juice. Very happy to get to the top of Casitas Pass and know most of the climbing was done, we had done 6000 ft already out of a total of 8500 ft for the day. We were 130 miles in and it was 3:30. A little behind pace but we'd probably be able to make that up on the PCH, which is flat and usually with a tail wind.

Heres the view from the top of Casitas Pass



Next came the always-shocking second Casitas Pass climb, then it was basically down hill to checkpoint 5, at the PCH in Carpenteria. We hadn't really been taking many pics, it was around 4:30 and we figured we better get one before the Sun went down.



We took off on the PCH, I was feeling really strong and took off with Gee. Jerold and Ed stuck to the pace but honestly weren't that far behind us. Forty miles of blissful flats, a really nice break when you were just getting kind of tired. The next checkpoint was at mile 165 and our gameplan had been to stop at a Wendy's right near there. I really wasn't sure I could eat anything, was ok with the Cliff Bloks and Skratch, but I decided to try. Got a plain baked potato and some iced tea while the guys ate burger. Gee took off a little early, he needed to get to his brother's birthday party, so he finished alone about 30 minutes ahead of us. The three of us took off after a little bit longer. We had 35 miles left, much of it rollers back on the PCH. We were feeling pretty good but knew those hills were going to get kind of old.

After a few miles, I started feeling pretty nauseated and couldn't really eat or drink any more. We decided to slow down the pace, I was feeling strong leg-wise (well reasonably strong, I was a little tired of course) but was afraid I would bonk and DNF because I wouldn't have been able to eat anything to recover if I did bonk. By now it was dark and surprisingly the PCH was not that busy. Again, beautiful riding along the ocean in the full moon. We were all three little giddy by now but happy, even me with my nausea. Somehow the hills did not seem as bad as I expected, but then again, I ride a lot before dawn and always find hills to be psychologically easier in the dark, I guess because you can't see the top, lol.

With about eight miles left to go, suddenly my nausea lifted, I think I finally digested that damn sub and I was starving. I was eating and drinking again and we picked up the pace. With 5 miles left to go, the external battery for my head light died (doh! The only thing untested was how long that external battery would really last with my headlight on bright and my Garmin running too, would have been so easy to do). But I still had my helmet light, so it was ok.

We finally finished at 8:45pm, after having started at 4:30am. Our pdealing time was 13.5ish hours, for a moving pace of 14.8 mph and 8500 total feet climbing. I'm completely happy with it, we could have made the 15mph target if it wasn't for the two hours of nausea. I'm happy to hear opinions on that BTW.

Towards the end of the ride, Ed says to "For newbies, you guys really have your $hit together". The highest praise from someone whose opinion I really value. That was just the cherry on top of a really great day.

Oh yeah, and remember those "hammer guys" that I thought I was going to be with when I was originally scheduled for the 3:30 start time? Well, we passed them before checkpoint two and never saw them again all day. We even hung around at the finish for about an hour, AV had a hot dinner waiting for us. So we finished at least two hours ahead of them, given they started at 3:30 am.

Rick@OCRR

Dead of Winter Double done . . . on a beautiful Southern CA winter day. Amazing, Dec. 6th and it was fairly warm all day. A little cold starting out (46 Deg.F) but warmed up nicely, topping out at 75.

Full moon too and the moonlight shimmering off the ocean in the pre-dawn was spectacular. DOWD is a modified Grand Tour course (Lowland morning, Highland afternoon) but still a tad over 8,000 feet of climbing (I got 9,364 on the Highland course in June).

Rest stop / Checkpoint food was minimal (with a $35.00 entry fee, what do you expect ). . . but the 5th Checkpoint was staffed (and paid for) by the Bull Shifters club from AZ and they had Cup-O-Soup, Cokes and Sprites, PB&J, pretzels, Oreo's, etc. and this is as compared to Hammer products (and water) only at the other stops.

I can't complain though because the entry fee was more than reasonable. Kudo's to the Bull Shifters though! Great job by Jim and Crew!

Here is my Strava feed: Bike Ride Profile | Dead of Winter Double Century 2014 - Beautiful Day on the Bike near Malibu | Times and Records | Strava

Saw many friends while out riding plus more friends working checkpoints so a very friendly day on the bike too! Got to meet Heathpack and her Magic Bike at the mile 119, Sarzotti Park in Ojai (though it was mile 126 for me, having gotten lost and added bonus miles!). Also great fun to see my friend Judy working that checkpoint (and Saralie working Checkpoint #1 ).

Any questions?

Rick / OCRR

bigfred 

Hammer'ette!

bigfred 

On event fueling: Caloric Intake - Proper Amounts During Endurance Exercise | Hammer Nutrition

I know it's completely biased and I could easily provide other articles that espouse other approaches. There seems to be a reasonably well supported theory that digestion slows beyond a certain exertion level. Which leads to the neccessity of relying increasingly on short to moderate chain carbs.

If that's true, it's very possible that your turkey sub was "sitting there" for those hours.

Heathpack 

@hamster, how did your ride go?!

hamster

I messed up. I've been ramping up running distance over the last few weeks pretty aggressively, for an event in January (did 4 miles on Wednesday, 1 mile on Thursday, and walked 4 miles on Friday) and and I think I didn't allow enough rest before the double. One knee was bothering me for much of the ride, especially when climbing. I didn't want to risk an injury so I got as far as Grimes/Balcom and then took Las Posas back to the coast and to the start.

Carbonfiberboy 

That's technically known as "sloshy stomach." Been there, done that, only rides with a fair bit of climbing. Yes, it's from riding harder. There's a combination of digestibility and stomach lining blood flow that can't be exceeded on the bad side or whatever you eat just sits there. My cure is to take 2 Endurolytes and just keep sipping plain water a few sips at at time, but keeping it up steadily, with another Endurolyte at least once/hour. I'm not sure exactly what the Endurolyte does, but it works. The technical cause is, as Hammer say, too high stomach osmolality. The plain water dilutes the contents and thus reduces the osmolality.

Prevention is, again as Hammer says, keeping to foods that produce a low stomach osmolality. Maltodextrin is the favorite of the low osmolality crowd because its large molecules produce that property. Also or perhaps thus, malto is very quick to cross the stomach wall and has a glycemic index of 110-130, compared to dextrose at 100 and sucrose at 55-65. High GI for on-bike foods is a very good thing.

More information about osmolality here: osmolality - definition of osmolality by Medical dictionary
though you're a med professional so probably know all about that.

Great ride! That's a good time and it sounds like you had fun almost all the way. Those are both really good things on a double. Of rando riding, I like to say that it's all about problem solving. There are always problems. The trick is to figure out what to do so you can keep going. Good job.

hamster

AFAIK, Endurolytes (and, more generally, electrolytes added to sports drinks) are basically snake oil. Their declared purpose is to prevent depletion of electrolytes: if you lose electrolytes (mainly sodium) by sweating and drink plain water, net effect is electrolyte loss. The problem is that the amount of sodium lost through sweat is far greater than the amount you replenish with Endurolytes if you take them as directed. One Endurolyte pill or one scoop of Heed contain 40 mg of sodium, and loss of sodium through sweat is at least 1000 mg/hour, though variable from person to person and dependent on conditions.

These things were invented in response to incidence of hyponatremia (low blood sodium levels) in long distance runners, but, as to be expected for the reason above, they thoroughly fail at this task. The risk of hyponatremia (and, presumably, electrolyte-related cramps) has to do with how much you drink, rather than what you drink.

If the issue is stomach osmolality, plain water should work well with or without Endurolytes.