Heathpack 

I am a newby-ish lady cyclist, took up road biking about 20 months ago. I am signed up for my first double century, with 8200 ft climbing, that will take place in a month. I feel pretty good about my training & prep for the ride, I'm currently riding 200-250 miles per week. I'm decently familiar with the course and am doing a series of training rides this month on the course. We did 83 miles of it last week, will do 100-115 of it this Sunday, then 120-150 of it the following week, then 70-85 miles the week after that, then taper, then event. I ride twice a week for two hours before dawn, have been doing this for a few months now, so I feel pretty good about riding in the cold & dark. I bought good head & tail lights awhile back, reccomended by a rando friend, have a helmet light as well. I have external batteries for the lights, havent used them yet but will on the two long training rides. I also feel pretty good about a new nutritional plan I've been using- eat/drink small amounts every 15 min- Cliff Bloks and Skratch, total 250ish cal/hr. So far, I can pretty much eat whatever I want while cycling with no stomach upset, am thinking of maybe stopping every 3 hours on the double and trying to eat a small meal, like half a sandwich or something, not really sure about that. I've ridden 7 100+ mile rides this year, three with 10,000 ft climbing. My longest ride to date is 130 miles/10,000 ft climbing. I'm not particularly fast but have been working on speed lately & am getting better. I have decent pace lining skills but honestly don't do too much pace lining in my everyday riding.

I joined a cycling club with a big endurance cycling component. There are multiple chapters in SoCal and lots of club members will be in the ride. This club has a strong ethic of looking after their own. I have a 3:30am start time with about 15 club members, but I don't know any of them. They are all men, and I'm told they are particularly strong hammer types. My training partners are also club members but they are starting at 4:30am. Also men, but ones I already know that I ride compatibly with. I'm told the men in my start time will ride with me, because that's the club ethic, but I know they they will be faster than me and I will need to ride my pace not theirs. However, I'm told pace lining & group riding are the key to a ride like this.

Questions:
1. How much of a double century do people typically ride as a group? If the guys from my start time drop me right away, should I slow way down and wait for my 4:30am start guys? Of just forge ahead solo? There will probably only be around 100 riders on this ride, so I won't inevitably be able to just assimilate into another group right away. It's not possible to change my start time BTW.
2. What should I plan on eating besides my on-the-bike carb-based foods? Is every a mini meal three hours reasonable? This ride is only semi-supported, no food at the rest stops. So it will either be restaurants or having my husband SAG for me.
3. I have been practicing minimizing time off the bike on these rides. I recently rode an organized metric century (actually 70 miles) with two stops and only 13 minutes off the bike. On last weekend's ride, we did one stop (sort of, there was also one flat and some slowing/pauses for a tired rider). What is realistic on a ride like this? Stop every three hours/45-50 miles for 20 min? Or should I just plan on stopping longer? If I'm riding with the group I feel certain the stops will be much longer.
4. What is a reasonable pace to expect to ride? I normally ride 14-15 mph on a say 70 mile ride without too much climbing, say 4000 ft, maybe 13 mph on a climby type ride.
5. I'm planning on bringing the following with me on the bike: two tubes, two CO2 cartridges, boots, patch kit, hand pump, Garmin, lights, external batteries, Cliff Bloks and Skratch for 6 hours (will meet husband at some point to resupply, he will also have more tubes & CO2, plus spare tires), sunglasses, phone, cash, credit card, and ID.. Will likely wear short sleeve jersey with arm warmers, shorts, reflective vest, toe covers, wool socks, open-finger gloves, all of which I know works for me at temps down to 40 degrees. If colder, I will add tights, full finger gloves and could wear a long sleeve jersey. Anything I'm not thinking of?
6. Other things I should be thinking to ask?

Sorry in advance for this ridiculously long post.

H

unterhausen

1 I would ride with a group as long as you can without really pushing yourself. I'm not sure if I would try to wait if you get dropped, just keep plugging along. I always figure I will catch someone
2 Carb only doesn't really work that well for me, I also mix in some protein. Groups do tend to stop a lot
3 Play it by ear, don't waste time off the bike. If it helps you finish, it's not a waste of time
4 I don't worry about speed
5 Looks fine
6 good luck

MilesDealer

I'd carry some kind of lube, Vaseline or a small quantity of chamois cream. Also carry something that will serve as a tire boot.

You'll save time if you can eat out of a convenience store as opposed to a restaurant. I rode a 300km brevet recently where we stopped every 30-40 miles, which I think is a good distance, and I drank a chocolate milk and ate a large Pay Day candy bar at most of them. At one store I ate a prepackaged tuna fish sandwich. Also consumed the six Cliff bars I carried with me in between the stops.

If you do have a personal sag then have him carry a floor pump and a spare tire and all the bike tools he knows how to use. Plus he can help out tremendously with your food and hydration needs. That said, usually working your way thru a convenience store and eating gives gives you some enforced time off the bike. While a personal sag can almost eliminate this time, I would advise getting off your bike for at least 5 minutes periodically, and longer if you need it.

mibike

Good advice above. You shouldn't have any problem with this ride based on your riding experience.

As unterhausen said ride with the group as long as you can without pushing yourself. If you push too hard you will burn out. If you end up riding alone watch convenience stores, gas stations, fast food restaurants etc for other riders you could ride with. A lot of times you can meet up with a group at a stop.

I also like to get some protein but not a lot. I also try to get salt I will almost always grab a Pay Day candy bar at a stop. I also like to get a chocolate milk, iced tea or small coffee to get a little caffeine. Pretzels and chips are also good. I will normally stop at a restaurant for a nice meal one time during the day other then that I eat on the bike and at convenience stores.

I agree that time off the bike is not wasted if it helps you finish. However I find that i'm better off riding at a pace that doesn't require long rest stops. Other than lunch when I stop I use the restroom, eat a candy bar or something ,have a drink fill my water bottles with water, ice tea or sports drank and put a snake in my bento box or pocket. I try to keep the stop to 5 minutes so my mussels stay warm, I find this is easier for me then taking a longer break and needing to warm back up and the older I get the more true this is. For this reason I don't have my wife sag for me as if she's at a stop I tend to stop too long. Plus that way when she rides with me don't miss having a sag.

I don't worry about speed but try to ride at a pace I can ride all day. This can change during the day and from day to day, are you in a draft or solo, do you have a head wind or tail wind etc. If I have a target speed then I might try pushing harder then I should so I don't set one.

Remember that all the advice we are giving you is what works for us and every one is not the same. Try different things on training rides to see what you like but on the ride try to not experiment.

Good Luck

valygrl

I would ride with your start-time group if you can keep the pace without pushing yourself too hard. DOn't take any pulls. If it's too fast, tell them good bye, and keep riding until your normal crew catches you. You could even call your buddies at some point and decide on a meeting place.

I don't understand the start time thing, and why they put you in the fast group and why the fast group starts before the slower group. If you don't care about whatever official timing or placing or whatever is involved, just start with your group, is someone really going to enforce start times? It sounds like it's unsupported, so why all the rules?

Heathpack 

It is a very strange situation, I agree, with these start times. But yes, they are going to enforce start times and in fact have threatened to ban any rider who does not start at their assigned start time. By ban, I mean from all future events put on by this club! Not kidding. I have even proposed to the person in our club who is in charge of endurance riding that maybe I should just "start" at 3:30 and then ride back to my car and wait for the 4:30 group. He told me not to do that, I will be banned. Whatever, there is something going on behind the scenes that I don't understand, but I'm not going to argue it.

I don't think anyone intended to start me with a fast group. The official word from our club is still "they will ride with you". Its other people that have told me these are the faster guys. Who knows what will happen? I'll just have to see.

I don't really care if I get an official finish on this event, but there are people in my club riding this event to get the California Triple Crown, which is an accolade you get after completing three double centuries from a specific list. This is the last chance event for the year, so I'm not going to mess things up for anybody, or create a feud between our club and the sponsoring club.

Now I am finding out that the rest stops are also check points, ie they are mandatory if you want an official finish time. But the rest stops only have water & Hammer nutrition products. So riding with the group means stopping at ALL these rest stops plus additional stops for food. I'm being told that possibly personal SAG is not allowed, but trying to clarify that. If personal SAG is allowed, I can just have husband meet at rest stops with food.

valygrl

What a lot of weird rules. It sounds like some kind of good-ole-boys club or high school clique. At least you're a girl, otherwise you would really be S.O.L.

It's hard to believe that your start group will slow down for you - if you can hang, great, but if you bury yourself early trying to keep up, you could end up feeling really awful later, and maybe not finish.

I can't imagine doing a ride like that without pacelining. Pacelining is magic, you should get really good at it, especially since you are interested in long distance.

I stand by my original comment - hang with your start group if the pace is OK, if not, drop back to your usual folks. It doesn't seem like it would be fair to your start group to make them slow down for you, if they normally ride together at some particular pace.

I'm interested to hear how this goes.

Rowan

The rules must be in writing somewhere, verbal or rumor rules are unenforceable.

Get a copy of the rules and read them yourself; that way you will be sure of what you are doing.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah, really weird. I would assume I'm riding it solo with groups catch as catch can. I think that's the best way anyway. Do not push yourself on the climbs. Set a HR limit, a number you just don't go over. When you do these last training rides, watch to see what HR is attainable on the last climb of the ride. That's your whole-ride limit. I know you're riding with power now, but HR is a measure of stress, the result of power, so I'm inclined to watch it closely along with power. Too much stress is not good. You can always lay it all down in the last 30 miles if you have it.

On a really long ride, I expect ordinary cycling dynamics, so that a group will always go faster than a solo. Thus I count on always being caught when I'm solo. I don't dawdle by any means, but I figure that sooner or later someone will be along. If you're solo, catching another solo usually doesn't work except for a little break for you. Same with catching a group. But a group catching you is frequently good as long as they're not way too strong.

Weird that they don't have food at the controls. Insane is another way to put it. They may very well forbid sags, IOW your husband's vehicle cannot be on the course. This is common.

Find out exactly what Hammer products will be available and test them on your final rides. I would prefer to have some solidish food to eat every 3 hours or so, but have often only had it every 100 miles. Many people do very well on Hammer Perpetuem because it has protein and a little fat. Hammer Gel is not good for doubles, at least not for the second half.

With only 100 riders, it's hard to believe that the club isn't putting sandwich makings and water in a couple of pickup trucks to move along the route. That's the sensible thing to do.

BTW, you might misunderstand the nature of the controls. Many times it's just a guy with a pen by the side of the road. You're out of there in less than a minute. The food stops may be separate, like the pickup truck thing. You'll probably need a ziploc bag for the control card to go in your jersey pocket.

Heathpack 

Thanks @Rowan & @Carbonfiberboy & @valygrl & @mibike & @MilesDealer & @unterhausen.

Ill try to get some rules. There are definitely none on the website. But I'll email the event organizer or failing that I'll call him, I have his cell phone number.

Interesting on the HR. Since I got the power meter, I don't even display HR anymore on my Garmin. Easy enough to add that field back in. There are only 2 climbs, neither of them too bad. One is at around 60 miles, it's a gradual climb to a 5% 1 mile climb. The other is after lunch, maybe 3 or 4 miles at 6%. I've done the short one once before & the longer one 4 or 5 times already. There is a long stretch of easy after the second climb, maybe 30 miles of slight downhill along the PCH, in the direction that usually gets a tailwind. That would probably be a great place to make time. The ride ends with 25 miles of short hills.

I will just have to see how it goes with trying to ride with a group. If my training group catches me, that will be one option for sure. Otherwise I can try to find refuge where I can. I don't usually worry about any of this for a century ride, I just plan on being strong enough to ride the whole thing solo if necessary. People are telling me this is not possible for a double, I will need a group.

I don't really plan on using any of the Hammer products. I'm figuring out how to carry enough Cliff Bloks & Skratch. I can get them in my jersey pockets, will leave room for nothing else however. I'm going to see if I can maybe get a small bag to hang off my TBar.

There will be water & rest rooms at each of the check points/rest stops. There are no food stops, I guess you're supposed to stop at restaurants & store.

Carbonfiberboy 

No, you don't need a group. I did a 400k in the mountains completely solo after a disastrous flat at about 20 miles. I did fine, finishing well up in the standings, and I wasn't in as good condition as you are now. An hour back is a very long way. You may never see them.

A possible rationale for this type of start is that they may have gotten pushback from communities along the route. Sometimes riders will coalesce into big groups which are a PITA for the locals. But this is rare. IME on long rides like this, riders spread out over the landscape very quickly after a mass start.

I haven't ridden with power, but you might be able to do the same thing with power that I recommended with HR. I sure would put the HR field back, though. That's how I tell if I'm low on food (low) or dehydrated (high), compared with usual power for the circumstances.

The 8200' might be a RWGPS error. That CA century I did this year was supposed to be 7200' but turned out to be 5000'.

mibike

I agree you don't need a group. I have rode farther than that without a group and you are in good shape. A group is nice if you can find one that rides at a pace you are happy with but it's not needed. After a certain point nothing changes, as long as you haven't been riding too hard and you keep eating and drinking you can keep riding.

If you need tubes with a long valve stem it would be a good idea to carry a valve extender in case you need to borrow a tube.

Heathpack 

The reason for the start times is this:
The ride is limited to 75 people. Our club mass registered 88 people when the ride opened up. There was a negotiation between the organizing club & our club. The end result was that the organizing club agreed to run the event on Sat & Sun, with two Saturday start times, if we would agree to spread our people out amongst the start days/times so that other people could ride too. I believe we also had to provide volunteers to man the check points, but I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure how many total people are now in the event. My 3:30 am start time may be only people from my club, I'm not sure. There are 15 of our club members riding the 3:30am start time. I'm thinking there will be no more than 85-100 people riding on Sat.

We had training ride #2 on the course today. There were 6 of us, including two guys from the 4:30 start time, one of whom is strong enough to pull the entire 200 miles, I'm sure of it. And such a sweetheart, he'd probably do it too.

Agree on the elevation gain being a possible error. All these Ride With GPS routes are prone to that. We rode half the course today, though, and it was 4200 ft climbing.

You might be right on not needing a group. I felt really strong today. The super-strong guy peeled off at the 75 mile mark, that just made sense for his ride home. I pulled the rest of the boys home, I actually had to slow down for them. It was easier for me to just pull the last 20 miles than to try to draft off of someone who was tired.

Heathpack 

Well, I talked to the guy running the ride. He didn't send me any rules but he is actually super mellow about it all. They are not recording times, he'd like people to stop at the check points but only so he knows where people are. He would not DQ someone for skipping a check point or two. He is fine with personal SAG as long as you are not extreme about it. In fact he suggested if I missed a check point because I went with personal SAG, to just have my SAG person come by the check point to let the ride volunteer know where I am.

He also said you can fill a small lunch sack with food items and they will bring the bag to one of the two middle rest stops for you. That helps logistically very much, don't have to carry more than 8 hours or so of food/electrolyte, which is very doable.

Bottom line is he says just call him with whatever questions I have as they arise, he said he talked to the event organizer who ran his first double for a total of about 2 hours before his ride. He already knows a lot of the riders who will be doing the ride and he thinks it's nothing but helpful for him as the event organizer to know who's out there, to have a feel for everyone's knowledge, experience & abilities. So he'd rather talk as much as necessary.

The whole scenario with this ride seemed so weird, I was getting the impression he was a difficult guy. But he's friends with a bunch of people I know, it didn't really make sense that he'd be a pain. I think all this talk of DQ and getting banned from future events is actually coming from our club guy, trying to get everyone to follow the agreement that he negotiated with the start times. Maybe a little overstating the seriousness of it all to get people's attention.

MetinUz

I ride 3 to 6 double centuries a year, also in California. The typical double provides Hammer Nutrition products at rest stops, they will also usually forward a drop bag to lunch stop, and even allow you to drop off your cold weather gear to be picked up at the finish. Your entry fee pays for these services, so the idea is that you can ride with minimal extra weight, unlike a self-supported brevet. Every double century I know specifically forbids personal SAGs.

A double takes a whole day of riding, and then some. You may be riding strong some times, and barely turn the pedals other times. While it would be nice to have an experienced friend along for the first time, it is really no big deal to start with a group, then ride alone, find another group, etc. I would suggest staying with a group as long as you are not putting more effort than you would while riding solo. It is good to identify flat sections where pacelining would be beneficial, and places where headwinds may be expected. You could then make an extra effort to ride with a group in these sections, for instance by waiting a little extra at a rest stop, or cutting the break short to catch a group ready to leave.

StephenH

I understand some of these double centuries have expectations on finishing time that imply fairly fast, and that would be the main reason for riding with a group. On the other hand, randonneuring events have time limits, but the limits are real generous, too, so riding in a group is more often a matter of socializing rather than being a requirement to finish.

(Example, I find the Solvang Double Century has a 17-hour time limit, the Mulholland has a whole gob of climbing and a 19 hour limit, while a 300k rando ride at 187 miles or so has a 20-hour time limit.)

Heathpack 

Hmm, I actually thought most Double Centuries had food at the rest stops, not just Hammer products like this double does. I've only really looked in to the Planet Ultra events, and even then I was really looking at the KOM Challenge rides; I know Planet Ultra provides food at their rest stops. I had no idea the norm was to not provide food. The only real-life double I've been involved in was when I rode a double metric with this same club and there were double century riders out on the course as well. They shared the rest stops with we double metric riders and there was indeed food at all the rest stops. And all the organized centuries I've ridden provided food. So this "Hammer nutrition products only" thing seemed strange to me. It would also be an awesome thing to not have to carry the layers I shed in the morning, would love to send them away for the day time part of the course and get them back towards the late afternoon, s since SAG is allowed, that's probably how I'll use it.

We are going to do a 150 mile ride on the course this weekend, so I think I'll get an idea of ebb and flow on the ride. We have a SAG driver but are going to set it up like the event itself- we'll go to each of the rest stops, send food forward in a bag, eat in stores/restaurants.

This ride begins and ends on the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu. Traffic is an issue, there are cars parked on the side of the road (the risk of getting doored is real), drivers are not always paying attention and you have to swing into the traffic lane at times to avoid being doored. Since I got the 3:30 start time, there is a chance I could finish this before it gets too dark. If I could do it in 14 hours, I'd be finishing around 5:30, only 30 min or so of riding in the dark on a dangerous road when I am fatigued. So my whole push for efficiency and having a game plan for this ride stems from that. I understand **** happens and the more people I ride with the more likely it is that I will encounter the unexpected. I just want to go into the ride with a semi-game plan that I can modify on the fly.

jsjcat

I know you will finish well as you sound very organized and disciplined. Please give us a detailed report after you accomplish this. It seems it's always folks who are new that write about their rides. Wish you well!

MetinUz

That is true. All doubles I have ridden provide regular food at rest stops, and typically one stop is designated as lunch where at least they provides sandwiches. I meant that Hammer products are what you find for on the bike nutrition, so you are on your own if you prefer Gatorade, Cytomax, etc.

Heathpack 

Haha, I am somewhat famous for my ride reports. If I do one for this ride, I'll post it for sure.

Heathpack 

Ok, we did a 135 mile training ride on the course. Went well from my perspective. Although it was a big group with lots of unprepared people, and it turned out to be a bit like riding with a herd of cats. I did get a number of useful things out of the experience, though.

1. You guys are totally right, riding in a paceline is nice if I can make it happen but I don't need it from a fitness perspective. in some ways not being in the start time with people I already know will be a bit of an advantage. If I can make something happen with my 3:30am start guys, great. If not, they have no personal obligation to me and I none to them. We all have this "stick together" club ethic to live by, but it's easier to downplay that if you're not actually friends and riding companions anyway. Then if something disastrous happens and I'm struggling, I know I'll have my 4:30 guys coming up behind me. So really I am getting things both ways, kind of lucky I now realize.

2. Discovered one equipment fail, the position of my helmet light. I have it mounted currently to better illuminate the road around my front wheel, but I actually could not get it to illuminate my cue sheet. Have to totally fix that.

3. I tried a new thing, a very thin wool sleeveless base layer. So I started the ride at 6am with temps in the 50sand high humidity wearing, wool socks, shorts, wool base layer, short sleeve jersey, wind vest, and arm warmers. I knew we would be doing our climb in the hottest part of the day (still high was only 70), I was afraid the wool base layer would be too warm. But it was actually pretty good, the base layer meat that I as a woman could unzip my jersey more without being obscene, it just looked like a T shirt. Then I could zip back up for the descents and be toasty warm.

4. Along those same lines, when we got to the coast and the temps were in the 50s with the wind coming off the ocean, I was good temp-wise right past sunset. The only concern that I have now is if I go late and the evening temps are in the 40s, I think I would be cold. Thinking of my options, I guess they are: 1. Get some thermal arm warmers, 2. Wear my current light cycling jacket under the wind vest (the vest is day-Glo and I've decided day-Glo is a necessity), trouble is my jacket flaps in the wind which gets pretty annoying on a long ride, 3. Buy a day-Glo jacket & switch to that in the evening, 4. Switch to a long sleeve jersey in the evening with arm warmers underneath or 5. Buy a long sleeve wool base layer (which I'm probably going to do anyway) and switch to long sleeve base layer & jersey in the evening. The only solution that is entirely self-supporting is option 1, I'd like to come up with a solution that does not require SAG. Does option 1 seem adequate?

Thanks for the help everybody.

LastKraftWagen

I would say, if you were going to buy a long-sleeved wool base layer to give this a try. Especially if it is the same weight as your vest. I may be wrong because I have really poor temperature sensitivity, but "excessive" insulation on your arms is far less uncomfortable than excess insulation over your core. Since the blood in your arms returns to your core anyway, you could use your regular core temp control tactics and may be fine. Then, if it is too much or too little, your regular warm warmers probably pack light.

With inflation, my two cents aren't worth what they used to be. Bowing to the more experienced....

mibike

I'm glad the training ride went well and that your confidence is going up. You did the correct thing trying things on a training ride so you know what works before the ride.

I like wool it seem to have a bigger comfort range to me so the long sleeve base layer sounds good. Depending on the temps you might get away with wearing it all day. Thermal arm warmers would also be a good option. You could also look at a day-glo Jacket with zip off sleeves. My wife has one that the sleeves and a panel across the back of the shoulders zips off of. The sleeves and panel pack small and will fit in a pocket, she likes it a lot. I find that after a long day of riding I will get cooler and need to wear more than I would for the same temp earlier in the day so you may want to think about that. One problem with giving advice about how to dress is that everyone is different and what is perfect for me may be too warm or too cool for you. It would be good if you could test what ever you decide on before the ride.

Carbonfiberboy 

Great job! Riding with friends can be a PITA, can't it? The rando rule is that if you can hold their wheel or they can hold yours, you can ride together. If not, not. If the other folks can get out of the control when you do, you can ride together, if not, not. I'm not really a hard ass, but I've left a lot of friends on the road. One kind of wonders if their eaten-out torso will be found in a ditch in the spring, but that's how it goes. You gotta do what you gotta do. Ride your own ride is the dictum. So for that distance, try to get your ET down to no more than 2 hours over your saddle time. Plan your stops ahead and time them. Coming into a stop, prioritize your needs. When the time's up, you go.

For a jacket, the Voler Jet HiViz is currently the Only Thing. Good fit, packs to the size of a large orange. Very much worth the money, which is not very much anyway.

I wouldn't wear long sleeves. Looking at my clothing SS for those conditions, I wear SS Craft undershirt, SS jersey, wind vest, arm warmers (either thermal or sun sleeves), shorts, leg warmers, short finger gloves but maybe carry or start in thin long finger gloves. I wouldn't even carry a jacket, but you might want to. If I go for the sun sleeves, which I often do, I wear them all day. I find the Craft stuff far superior to wool. I've tried the zip-off sleeves on two different jackets: complete PITA. Much better to have the other thing in a jersey pocket and just switch them.

LAJ

Excellent.

Some folks treat distance as a social event, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Others have specific goals and times, which is also just fine. Ride your ride, as was said.