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Masters Racing (All Disciplines) Race on the track or road or on your mountainbike in the Masters Category? Want to talk tactics, strategy and training with your peers?

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Old 02-11-16, 04:51 PM   #1
DHRB45
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Double sessions: Weights & intervals for the over 55s

Top trackies typically do 2 or 3 days per week, where they do squats / gym work in the morning, and then go to the track in the afternoon. I.e. they do "double sessions".

Are there many trackies - over 50 / 55 years who also do "double sessions"?
Can I ask: what have you learnt & what are your experiences (particuarly with respect to workloads, and ability to recover).
Insight apprectiated !!

Last edited by DHRB45; 02-12-16 at 07:37 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 02-13-16, 11:23 AM   #2
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I did some double sessions prepping for track Nats last year. I flipped the morning weights to the afternoon in most cases; after a weight session I didn't have enough in my legs to hit some of my numbers. Caveat is that I was doing a fair bit of 2k work in there. I can see where for pure sprint work you could stay with the former program.

Definitely want to refuel between sessions, and it helps if you can stay off the legs. How many of these you could do a week would be an individual response thing, there's of course a tipping point were your recovery is too slow and you make yourself slower.
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Old 02-23-16, 08:23 PM   #3
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I did some double sessions prepping for track Nats last year. I flipped the morning weights to the afternoon in most cases; after a weight session I didn't have enough in my legs to hit some of my numbers. Caveat is that I was doing a fair bit of 2k work in there. I can see where for pure sprint work you could stay with the former program.

Definitely want to refuel between sessions, and it helps if you can stay off the legs. How many of these you could do a week would be an individual response thing, there's of course a tipping point were your recovery is too slow and you make yourself slower.
Thanks for reply Racer Ex. Gottcha re refueling and tipping point. Thing is, that I have 2.5 - 3 hour lunch breaks, and am trying to maximise that time. So, I have started doing a couple of "double sessions" a week - or at least one, to try and help me fit an increased training load.

The thing that bothers me somewhat, is having suffficient recovery. Something I found out about last year the hard way !!

So, you reckon I should be fine with "double sessions" with, say, doing 30 sec / 1 min repeats afterwards ? (so long as the volumes were progressively increased, to assist with general "weights / cycling" adaption ?? Cheers
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Old 02-23-16, 08:47 PM   #4
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I would think that would be fine. Thing with that type of work is when you stay in the anaerobic buckets you are going to get a benefit in either order. The track work after weights might actually improve form...less thrash.

If you stop progressing or maintaining on whatever you choose to do first after a rest period then you're likely shorting recovery.
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Old 02-24-16, 12:58 AM   #5
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Thanks Racer Ex
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Old 02-24-16, 01:54 AM   #6
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I had a very interesting conversation, with one of the New Zealand track sprinters - about weights & how they train for power. Thought you might be interested. I was lucky enough to race against three of the Olympic squad, and the current 10,000 WR holder, at an Open meeting at Wanganui last weekend (not far from Cambridge). These guys could F.L.Y. I started with one of them in a handicap race - and was totally, totally outclassed haha.

I asked afterwards, what they did in the gym, to develop so much power. He (the guy I started with) told me they did plenty of full squats for strength - but the real intense efforts went into "stair jumping" and "Power cleans". Leg press for occassional variety, but two leg stair jumping - not single, cos of injury risk - and lots and lots of Power Cleans. Interesting eh ..

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Old 02-25-16, 12:37 PM   #7
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I had a very interesting conversation, with one of the New Zealand track sprinters - about weights & how they train for power. Thought you might be interested. I was lucky enough to race against three of the Olympic squad, and the current 10,000 WR holder, at an Open meeting at Wanganui last weekend (not far from Cambridge). These guys could F.L.Y. I started with one of them in a handicap race - and was totally, totally outclassed haha.

I asked afterwards, what they did in the gym, to develop so much power. He (the guy I started with) told me they did plenty of full squats for strength - but the real intense efforts went into "stair jumping" and "Power cleans". Leg press for occassional variety, but two leg stair jumping - not single, cos of injury risk - and lots and lots of Power Cleans. Interesting eh ..
Fast explosive. The squats help turn the gear from low RPM, the jumps are what kill when you're pedaling mid to high RPM. The morphology is interesting on these guys, at the elite world level they are all big dudes. Below that you get a real variety. My team sprint teammate from a few years ago had won more than 5 world sprint titles, and he was my size. All fast twitch and could make power at 160 rpm which let him run a small gear. He could get to top speed really quickly. Pic of him on my wheel at Nats.

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Old 02-27-16, 03:31 AM   #8
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That is a way cool photo! What does it take, to have the power to "kick-in" at around 160 rpm. Heck, I cant even make 150 tops !!
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Old 03-02-16, 01:10 PM   #9
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I would think that would be fine. Thing with that type of work is when you stay in the anaerobic buckets you are going to get a benefit in either order. The track work after weights might actually improve form...less thrash.

If you stop progressing or maintaining on whatever you choose to do first after a rest period then you're likely shorting recovery.
3rd week in now Racer Ex with the "double sessions" (weights followed by intervals). I have been taking care not to crucify my legs in the squats, i.e. by doing one set less than I would normally, and not pushing to the very last rep in the way I would usually do. Hopping on the bike pretty soon afterwards - but doing 10 mins of spinning, before getting into the intervals.

It has introduced an unfamiliar sense of fatigue - but it seems to be going perfectly well.

I took your point on ensuring that I "refueled" in between, and have been having rehydration / carbs powder in my water bottle rather than water only, like I would usually do.
And a very easy, L1 spinning day afterwards.

Thanks for the tips: Appreciated !
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Old 03-02-16, 02:23 PM   #10
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Hope it works/helps! Usually takes my legs a couple of days to recover from a big session, at some point I can tell the fatigue isn't diminishing or the soreness is hanging around; I'll double up the days off so I go back to 100%. I've found (for both myself and my clients) that "full rest" works better than doing a recovery ride then jumping back in when you're doing weight/strength work.

Fair bit different than the "duration" driven soreness you get from long miles.

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Old 03-03-16, 10:10 AM   #11
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Fast explosive. The squats help turn the gear from low RPM, the jumps are what kill when you're pedaling mid to high RPM. The morphology is interesting on these guys, at the elite world level they are all big dudes. Below that you get a real variety. My team sprint teammate from a few years ago had won more than 5 world sprint titles, and he was my size. All fast twitch and could make power at 160 rpm which let him run a small gear. He could get to top speed really quickly. Pic of him on my wheel at Nats.

Nice Pic! From experience training the combination of fast twitch and low mass is a challenging one. Real easy to end up OK at a lot of things and good at nothing. I used to look at Track sprinters as Cats or Bulls. Jump is your friend if you're a Cat. So is rest.
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Old 03-06-16, 04:38 AM   #12
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thanks for the insight: appreciated
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Old 03-06-16, 06:25 AM   #13
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Fast explosive. The squats help turn the gear from low RPM, the jumps are what kill when you're pedaling mid to high RPM. The morphology is interesting on these guys, at the elite world level they are all big dudes. Below that you get a real variety.
"Big dudes" is a matter of perspective, I guess. I met Hoy at an event just after he'd retired from competition, and given how huge he looked on the track I was amazed by how small he was. Wikipedia claims he's 6'1", but I doubt it, I dwarfed him - except for his quads, of course. I'd say 6', tops. And Jason Kenny's only around 5'10".

Sorry, OT. It's just another reminder that I'm way too heavy for this sport even when I'm not fat. Should have taken up rowing...
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Old 03-07-16, 11:41 AM   #14
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"Big dudes" is a matter of perspective, I guess.
It's the cycling theory of relativity:

Big dude:



Small dude:



Dude:

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Old 03-08-16, 02:04 AM   #15
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great photos Years ago, I could squat 180/90 kgs (as a junior). I read that Sir Chris maxed out at around 160 kg. However, with thighs like that - I very much think more likely that he maxes out at well over 200 kgs. Your thoughts ??

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Old 03-08-16, 07:20 PM   #16
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great photos Years ago, I could squat 180/90 kgs (as a junior). I read that Sir Chris maxed out at around 160 kg. However, with thighs like that - I very much think more likely that he maxes out at well over 200 kgs. Your thoughts ??
I do recall a 2750w peak sprint. The squat number for me just elicits a Labrador retriever head tilt. No frame of reference, back won't allow them. I know my single leg press puts the press in unimpressive.
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Old 03-12-16, 03:38 PM   #17
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great photos Years ago, I could squat 180/90 kgs (as a junior). I read that Sir Chris maxed out at around 160 kg. However, with thighs like that - I very much think more likely that he maxes out at well over 200 kgs. Your thoughts ??
Didn't have to think, googled it. He used to squat 240kg. At one point, I seem to recall, he maxed out the leg press machine in the BC gym and had one of his teammates sit on top of the weight stack to give himself a challenge.
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Old 03-12-16, 06:21 PM   #18
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Didn't have to think, googled it. He used to squat 240kg. At one point, I seem to recall, he maxed out the leg press machine in the BC gym and had one of his teammates sit on top of the weight stack to give himself a challenge.
I have women in the gym come over and challenge me to leg presses.

It's nothing but impressive watching those guys sprint. The thing that always struck me is you can HEAR things wind up and groan. That said most of the guys are still on "old school" bottom brackets.
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Old 03-12-16, 07:10 PM   #19
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Didn't have to think, googled it. He used to squat 240kg. At one point, I seem to recall, he maxed out the leg press machine in the BC gym and had one of his teammates sit on top of the weight stack to give himself a challenge.
Thats more like it
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Old 03-12-16, 07:19 PM   #20
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I have women in the gym come over and challenge me to leg presses.

It's nothing but impressive watching those guys sprint. The thing that always struck me is you can HEAR things wind up and groan. That said most of the guys are still on "old school" bottom brackets.
Speaking of loads, equipment groaning and such; recently I was at a meet here in New Zealand, and took the opportunity to talk to a couple of members of the NZ sprint team. Talking about rims / hubs etc. They reckon that they cant / dont use commercial wheels, as they munch / break / bend them. Preferred hubs of choice are "White Industry" ones, as the boys cant break them ..
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Old 09-18-16, 05:37 AM   #21
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re the pic, it looks like you're about to get eaten up!
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Old 09-19-16, 06:11 AM   #22
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This off-season I am adding in double sessions of box jumps followed by on-bike work, twice a week. I figure the on-bike workouts will just follow wherever I am in the cycle rather than being focused exclusively on intensity all winter (which I think would be counterproductive).

I'm 2 weeks into this regimen and similar to what DHRB45 said, it creates a unique fatigue sensation in the legs, different from regular heavy legs after a workout.
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Old 09-19-16, 06:25 AM   #23
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I'm happy this thread was revived is only to see Ex's dude post!

Since I will be incorporating weight training in my base training this year, I will be following along.
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Old 09-19-16, 09:02 AM   #24
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Ah, I was victimized by drive-by necromancy.
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Old 09-19-16, 09:36 AM   #25
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Ah, I was victimized by drive-by necromancy.
Hey, how would us newbies get to enjoy the thread otherwise?
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