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  1. #2576
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I bow to the knowledge of the Sensei... thanks.
    So do I! You guys have been imparting some great secrets lately. Whats going on???

    This morning in spin we did intervals. HARD intervals! 4 sets of 20 x 5 max efforts, half jumps, half seated. My heart rate came down, down, down for each successive effort, and when we "released" to spin out after the efforts, wow, did I get light headed! What is going on there??
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  2. #2577
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Dizzyness can come from being dehydrated, low blood sugar, low pulse, or a combination of any of these. For me it's usually related to all three. Interestingly enough, I have found that as I have added more protein to my diet, I have less bouts of dizzyness after hard exercise. I don't understand the relationship.

  3. #2578
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    The lowering HR sounds to my newby self like your legs were wearing out, and you couldn't work hard enough to keep your HR up.

    Not sure on the dizziness. I only get lightheaded well after a hard effort, if I'm resting with my legs up and then stand quickly. I get orthostatic hypotension then, and fainted from it once. That went over well on the home front! Hadn't been seeing it for quite awhile, but I am after this past weekend. It's entirely possible that eating has something to do with it for me, given I recently dropped a couple of pounds. Just to be lighter than AJ.

    187.3 this morning. I've graduated from "Addiction" to "Pathos", or so I'm told.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  4. #2579
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Hmmmm....

    Diet keeps coming up. I wonder....
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  5. #2580
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    So do I! You guys have been imparting some great secrets lately. Whats going on???

    This morning in spin we did intervals. HARD intervals! 4 sets of 20 x 5 max efforts, half jumps, half seated. My heart rate came down, down, down for each successive effort, and when we "released" to spin out after the efforts, wow, did I get light headed! What is going on there??
    My head hurt trying to understand your workout and I got light headed thinking about doing the workout. Normally, the first number is the number of reps and the second is the time. So you did 20, 5 second max efforts and then did 4 sets for a total of 80 efforts. IMO, that is way too much and not productive.

    We do 100 meter jumps at the track after a very long and solid warmup of easy spinning. The idea behind the 100 meter rolling jump is to train the first couple of pedal strokes for strength and work on acceleration. We shut down the power at 100 meters. Why? The goal is to use the ATP-CP system and NOT go anaerobic. The ATP-CP system can be visualized as "free energy" in that it does not come at cost. So we use the ATP-CP system and discharge it in a jump. We then roll around slowly for a couple of minutes to allow the ATP-CP system to recharge and then do another one. We do two seated and two standing for a total of 4 jumps averaging around 7 to 8 seconds each. We try to go as hard as possible and I try to visualize breaking the bike into two pieces.

    The cumulative effect of the 4 jumps is significant and will cause soreness the next day much like a weight lifting session. 4 jumps is the MOST I have seen nationally ranked elite sprinters do. So doing more is counterproductive.

    The sprinters move from jumps to doing more sprinty types of workouts. To work on sprints, we increase the distance to 200 meter and now we are going to go anaerobic. This will generate a lot of fatigue. The rest period is increased to 10 minutes after a flying 200 meters and in general, we do a couple of these along with other types of sprint routines and motor games.

    To build lactate tolerance, we do 30 second on and 30 seconds off. The goal is to hit z6 anaerobic threshold (not sprinting) for 30 seconds and then recover for 30 seconds at z1/z2. Note that the ATP-CP system will not be fully charged when you do the next effort so one goes deeper into an anaerobic state. If you were doing 5 reps at 20 seconds each with rest in between for 4 sets or a total of 20 reps, that makes more sense although 20 seconds is too short.

    The first time I did 30 on 30 off with a group on the road, it was really hard. My heart rate does not shoot up in a 30 second effort. My power does but my HR lags. What was happening to you is that the first few reps, your legs were fresh and you had power which caused your HR to respond. And you probably overcooked the first few. As your legs tired, your power dropped and the HR dropped.

    Feeling light headed doing this type of effort would not surprise me if it was your first time. YMMV
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #2581
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Okay, so I took my FD issues to the expert, since I can't get it to stop rubbing without risking a chain drop. The answer? My chainring doesn't spin true. Doh! Another casualty of 'the incident', and one I hadn't noticed until I used it with the 7900 FD, which doesn't have as much trim capacity as the Ultegra. So, it's time for new rings.

    Any of you have experience with Rotor Q-rings? I see them more and more. Seems like a much easier way to smooth my power than doing all those crazy workouts you folks do or, heaven help me, riding a fixie!

    I'm only half-way kidding.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  7. #2582
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Weekly PSA from Roger Young's tweets (@laeventcenter): Rogers Sessions this week: 1 minutes for all effort levels, 2 sets of 5x Z1-Z4-Z2-Z4-Z2

    Did these on Tuesday after doing 3rd weekend in a row of 3 races on Sunday. They hurt!
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  8. #2583
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Hermes, ummm...no. We did four sets of intervals in the session. There were five efforts in each set. Each effort was twenty seconds, with ten seconds of recovery in between. Three were jumps (off the saddle), two were on the saddle: started with a jump, then seated, then a jump...etc. I'm sorry I got the numbers wrong, I assumed a different explanation! Sorry...
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  9. #2584
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Okay, so I took my FD issues to the expert, since I can't get it to stop rubbing without risking a chain drop. The answer? My chainring doesn't spin true. Doh! Another casualty of 'the incident', and one I hadn't noticed until I used it with the 7900 FD, which doesn't have as much trim capacity as the Ultegra. So, it's time for new rings.

    Any of you have experience with Rotor Q-rings? I see them more and more. Seems like a much easier way to smooth my power than doing all those crazy workouts you folks do or, heaven help me, riding a fixie!
    I'm only half-way kidding.

    I hate it when the bike doesn't work the way you expect it to. My Roubaix would sometimes not switch from small ring to big ring without prodding. There were times in races that I did not go to the little ring in fear of it sticking. I want to think about the race and not the equipment.

    I don't know about Q-rings but do know there are a lot of NOS Biopace rings for sale on Ebay.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  10. #2585
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    Hermes, ummm...no. We did four sets of intervals in the session. There were five efforts in each set. Each effort was twenty seconds, with ten seconds of recovery in between. Three were jumps (off the saddle), two were on the saddle: started with a jump, then seated, then a jump...etc. I'm sorry I got the numbers wrong, I assumed a different explanation! Sorry...
    I was pulling your chain a little and assumed that you meant 4 sets of 5 efforts x 20". I did not know the rest interval. However, I wrote the commentary to help you figure out what may work for you and what others do.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #2586
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Finally got the OK from coach to do road rides on the road bike. I rode with a buddy last night for 2 hrs @ Z3. It was 60 degrees with 20-25mph winds when we started. Having gears with the stronger wind was a welcome change. My buddy and I took 30" to 1" pulls until he began to loose it the last 1/2 hour, then I pulled us home. I was watching the HR to keep in Z3 and did not reach Z4 very much. I really am feeling strong for this early in the season. I loaded the PT data onto the computer and the average watts, normalized power and intensity matched races from last summer. The only difference on the ride was the # of surges and 1' to 5" power which is to be expected. I told Steve while we were riding that it felt like race pace intensity. I'm not sure what to expect in MI in 2 weeks, but will race as if I'm ready to win.

    The fixie is all cleaned up, lubed and hanging on the garage wall since it has completed it's off-season mission. That is, possibly, until the 166m velodome opens in Cleveland this summer. http://clevelandvelodrome.org/
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  12. #2587
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I was pulling your chain a little and assumed that you meant 4 sets of 5 efforts x 20". I did not know the rest interval. However, I wrote the commentary to help you figure out what may work for you and what others do.
    Oh!! Well, thank you!!

    I was able to put a lot together from your explanation. Your description of ATP-CP recharging, and what happens when it doesn't was very clear. That was exactly what was happening to me, you described to a "T"! My spin coach is really good about having me/us release and spin out to recover after intervals and sustained efforts. My problem is that when she says "add resistance" I add too much! By the way, I do recover to well below 120BPM, actually to around 100BPM, in less than two minutes.

    I pre rode the circuit course for Sunday's race this afternoon on my Giant CFR Team. I've decided I'll use that bike for the race. I half way expected the ride out to the roads being used for the race would give me a decent warmup, because there is a fair amount of climbing to be done on the way there. Wrong! I started around the course, and by the time I made it to the first turn, about two miles in, it was evident that I was NOT warmed up. On top of that, it was over 70 degrees and I was riding into a 10 MPH headwind. I decided then just to take it easy and pay attention to the features of the course, as well as the hazards. I evaluated the bike performance, too.

    By the time the second lap started, I was warmed up a tad better, and I stepped up my pace slightly. It didn't help that I fumbled a water bottle and had to turn around to pick it up at one point. I'll be careful to handle water bottles with care during the race.

    I uploaded my data to Strava when I got back home. My heartrate data was way off, mainly because the HR strap loosened and ended up around my waist. It's useless there. My speeds were actually a little better than I anticipated, but I'm well aware that I'm way off of race pace. I'm sure they won't improve much this Sunday when I hit the track for real. That's okay by me, this is learning/training race.

    Here's Strava: http://http://app.strava.com/rides/4943836
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  13. #2588
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Any of you have experience with Rotor Q-rings?
    Early adopter. All I ride at this point. Exact opposite of Biopace BTW.

    Less aggressive ramping than the Osymetrics, which Bobby Julich once told me resurrected his career.

    Big thing on these is that they have 5 possible settings and there's huge value to dialing them in to your pedal stroke and position on the bike. On several bikes I have the big and small rings set differently. It's all about where you engage power on the pedal stroke.

    Cleave, will call you tomorrow...

  14. #2589
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm giving them a try. A teammate who uses them for TTs says he'll buy 'em from me for his road bike if I don't like them, so low risk. And Quarq says they'll work with my SRAM-Cinqo, probably without recalibration. But of course, as in everything cycling, they're more expensive than just replacing the SRAM RED rings.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #2590
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Racer Ex, how do you adjust the rings? Power, feel? I have been thinking that they might help me while in the TT position.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  16. #2591
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I felt good on the short route easy commute this morning, and am looking forward to race prep on the way home, and then my 4 race weekend. I think I'm going to like doing my prep ride the day before, rather than two days before, which has been my routine. I know intensity the day before is also supposed to help with carb-loading: do your intensity, eat right away, then rest up.

    I'm thinking of this weekend as my "Mars Attacks" weekend of peaceful pack obliteration.

    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  17. #2592
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    The Martians don't have Quad Lazars like the Moonities. My Tarmac has a moom beam of it's own

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNYMxgNKIEU
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  18. #2593
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Racer Ex, how do you adjust the rings? Power, feel? I have been thinking that they might help me while in the TT position.
    Feel. If you notice the actual ramping either at the start or end of your downward pedal stroke, you need to move them. the pickup and take off should not be noticeable. Get this right and the power part takes care of itself.

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    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Gunfight this weekend. David v. Goliath, with a bunch of wildcard talent and teams thrown in there.

    We're surrounded, outnumbered, and outweighed. Me, I like our chances.

  20. #2595
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I was going to suggest you take on the Goliath Juniors but that may not be a better deal.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  21. #2596
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Now I want new rings.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  22. #2597
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Gunfight this weekend. David v. Goliath, with a bunch of wildcard talent and teams thrown in there.

    We're surrounded, outnumbered, and outweighed. Me, I like our chances.
    I'd say it's a push, and I've got my money on Echelon.

    Good luck and have fun.

  23. #2598
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Gunfight this weekend. David v. Goliath, with a bunch of wildcard talent and teams thrown in there.

    We're surrounded, outnumbered, and outweighed. Me, I like our chances.
    So you're in NorCal? I assumed you were headed to Murrieta.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
    "Real men wear pink."
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  24. #2599
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Now I want new rings.
    Mine are on the way. 2 weeks without races after this weekend, so I'll be able to get the position (and any calibration issues) sorted out before racing again.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  25. #2600
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Sara? Here is an example of how not to do things tomorrow morning. I was up at 5:00 for a 7:05 start, with the venue not very far away. Walked the dog, drank some coffee, grabbed the few things not already in the car, and hit the road. Half way there, I look for my wallet, which has my license, and can't find it. I get off the freeway, get back home, and it's also not where I leave it. I cuss and swear, then check the car again, finding it in the pocket of the shorts I had in the car. Get the venue, park, put stuff together, and of course it's a "ride to the registration area to get your number". I get there, and the registration desk is totally fubar (newbies handling things). I'm waiting, and realizing I could miss my start. I mention that, and everyone lets me to the front, where, naturally, they don't even ask for my license! I go over to a table to pin the number, and a rider I know comes by. He pins mine, and I re-pin his on the right (left) side. I normally have mine glued, but oh well. I dump my windbreaker on a retaining wall, and get to the start with maybe 2 minutes to spare, facing a monster climb with no warmup.

    Result? DFL. 6 out of only 6 that did the climb.

    Fortunately, I have 2 hours to finally get things sorted out. I glue and re-pin the number, get my mind squared away, put the bike on the trainer, and start spinning. I get over 45 minutes of easy spinning in, then give myself plenty of time to put the wheel back on and get to the starting area. I ride around a side road awhile until they let us up to the start line, where they let us take a lap as they start the 45+ HC (both courses share a start line). Of note is that the Cat 5 race that was just finishing was totally split up, with nothing left that at all resembled a pack. Riding the course showed why, as there is enough of a climb to separate everyone. We line up to start, and there are one heck of a lot more guys now. Fresh guys! So, with a discombobulated day, and a host of fresher competitors, did I abandon my declared tactics of attacking at the start?

    No. I did not... and... (drum roll please):


    Never having had to worry about it before, I didn't check to see when the awards would be, and they held them while I was off cooling down. So no podium pic.

    When I attacked, I didn't look back, but I knew one guy had joined as soon as he realized I was serious, as I saw his shadow and a glimpse in my peripheral vision. Then two guys bridged up to us, and I finally took a look back, to find that we were really clear. One of the others had teammates back in the pack, and the teammate (guy who pinned my number) told me later he did his best to block. By the second climb, we were long gone. It's a course where you get out of sight quickly, and I'm sure that helped. We didn't really work together. It was a case of whomever was fastest in a given section taking the lead, and I knew we were moving better than the pack would be. We dropped one of the guys on the second or third climb, leaving me, a guy racing 60+, and one other (really strong) 55+er.

    As the three of us came around with three to go, our team captain was at the start/finish, and he was coaching me: "Great position, now conserve! Conserve!" I did that on the fast sections, but it's hard to conserve on a small ring climb. I was dropped during the second to last climb, and did the last lap-and-a-half solo, pushing hard because there was no way I was going to lose my first podium on the last lap! Turns out we were w-a-y ahead. I looked back a couple times after I was dropped, and there was nobody in sight. I still pushed it, but took the curves a little more conservatively, taking no chances. I didn't want to be haunted by "Did you see that guy who crashed when he was all alone?". Amazing what goes through your head.

    So I really placed third in the race, but because one of the guys was 60+, I was second from a points/winnings standpoint.

    WooHoo!

    I text my wife (who thought my declared strategy was further evidence of a declining mental state) and she says "That's good!". I replied "No, that's totally effing AWESOME!" Which is exactly how I feel.

    Just call me the "Ex-Emulator".
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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