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  1. #2776
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    AZTR, I don't know if the two guys who finished ahead of me can do 8 ball pushups. But I do know if we met behind the porta-johns, I would be the one to come back around first.
    I could tell that from the pic. Reminds of a comment after Contador infamously dropped Schleck when Schleck botched a shift. Schleck was saying how he felt like he wanted to kick Alberto's ass, and the commentator was laughing about someone who looked like a praying mantis making physical threats.
    Last edited by AzTallRider; 03-26-12 at 10:48 AM.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  2. #2777
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Way to go Cleave.

    Way to go Sara.

    Way to go Shovel.

    I got in 130 miles this weekend, including a South Mountain climb. It felt great to get some real mileage in, and it should be helpful in preserving my base for the state RR on 4/21, which is on a climbers course.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  3. #2778
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Good job Cleave!

    Where are you racing Tuesday nights BTW?

  4. #2779
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Great result Cleve. You didn't expect much but did well!
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  5. #2780
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    FWIW I put my race results in the 33 race results thread. I don't know if it makes sense to duplicate them here.
    I read your report and IMO, consistency will pay dividends over time - keep it up.

    I do not post double messages. Sometimes I post in the 33.

    Last year, I proposed to BF that they create a 50+ racing sub forum next to the existing 33. My idea was that it would attract more masters and would be better than the sticky here since one cannot create a thread and etc and it solves the dual posting issue. Initially, Tom was bullish but he did not follow through. Since we have more activity, it may have more appeal today.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #2781
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Another good Cav interview. From Velonews:

    “I was isolated before the Monteberg,” said Cavendish after the finish. “It’s as simple as one wheel; someone loses the wheel in front of you, and you’re gapped.”

    A week after his disappointing withdrawal from Milan-San Remo, Cavendish held fast in the group of favorites over both climbs of the Kemmelberg, but was dislodged on the second descent. Greg Van Avermaet (BMC Racing) and Matti Breschel (Rabobank) pressured the group over the top of the climb and that acceleration caused the split near the front of the peloton.

    “When we turned left on the descent of the Kemmelberg, it was one line, spread out,” he said. “It wasn’t that hard, I just lost the wheel, I had my head down, and by the time you look up, it’s too hard to get across. Usually if you are in the top 25 off the Kemmelberg, you’re all right. I guess next time I’ll have to be in the top 10.”

    The article has a great "suffering" pic: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...e-wheel_210693
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  7. #2782
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    My training is very good but my racing is non existent. I was scheduled to race that past two weekends and races were canceled due to rain and I decided not to do one on Saturday due to weather.

    I initiated a rest interval last week, and due to weather, I rode the trainer Saturday and Sunday in z1/z2. Today is a rest day and I will start up again tomorrow. My next race is in two weeks followed by track racing at Velo Sports Center the following week.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  8. #2783
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Wind Tunnel Accuracy

    Recently, I attended a presentation on time trialing and one of the topics discussed was use of the wind tunnel. Two panelists, who had been to the wind tunnel, said that it was not that accurate for determining the value of small changes. For example, it did not make any difference which TT helmet was used since the level of background noise is too great. They said that in order to evaluate helmets, the tunnel would have to be much smaller such that the helmet was material to the airflow in the tunnel. And the resulting "new" position was not necessarily faster due to many other factors.

    My take away was the tunnel was not worth the time and expense and it is better to test at an indoor velodrome with a power meter armed with some tricks of the trade with what works.

    Any counter experience or data to this info and conclusion?
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  9. #2784
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post

    Last year, I proposed to BF that they create a 50+ racing sub forum next to the existing 33. My idea was that it would attract more masters and would be better than the sticky here since one cannot create a thread and etc and it solves the dual posting issue. Initially, Tom was bullish but he did not follow through. Since we have more activity, it may have more appeal today.
    I think this is a good idea.

    And with reference to your comments about wind tunnels, I have no personal experience but am sure you are right that a) it may not be sensitive to small changes, and b) even if it were, the most aero position is not necessarily the best. I seem to remember reading that Armstrong spent some time in a wind tunnel one winter to try to improve his TT position, only to find that by going to the optimally aero position he lost more power than he gained in slipperiness. He went back to what he felt most comfortable, and most powerful, with.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  10. #2785
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Thanks for the kind words. It's nice to get a result this early in the season. Hopefully it will help my confidence.

    shovelhd, read your report on the 33 and glad to see that you're beating up on people more consistently. Also looks like some very thoughtful moments at that race after last week's tragedy.

    sarals, Nice win! My wife is a runner who does well in her age grade, however, she has no interest in cycling as a sport. Good luck at Sea Otter.

    chasm54, read about your first two criterium experiences and glad to see that you're learning a lot and having a lot of fun. It's also interesting for me to read about racing in other countries like the UK (and Ohio ).

    Racer Ex, glad that you're improving. Can't have the new guy on the block disappear for too long after making such a rapid and good first impression. Right now I'm racing on Tuesday nights at El Dorado Park in Long Beach (http://www.californiabicycleracing.org/2012.Eldo.pdf). Right now the races start at 6:00p. After this series ends in May I will probably start racing a few Thursdays each month at the Irvine Great Park (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Thurs...13834771971286).

    Hermes, how would we keep the young punks out that sub forum if it was right next to the 33?
    Thanks.
    Cleave
    "Real men wear pink."
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  11. #2786
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    I've been to 3 tunnels, A2, Texas A & M, and Colorado. I'm not sure what tunnel the panelists went to but most tunnel "noise" is due to a rider who can't hold position. This becomes more the case on a velodrome BTW where pushing a knee out slightly might change results 10w. I've found tunnels to be extremely sensitive to small changes, seeing repeatable and consistent differences from something like a front tire. To say that it can't differentiate between helmets when you might see a 20w or more spread between them in the same position on the same rider makes me scratch my head.

    The layered photography employed at the tunnels I went to showed that I was a pretty good "crash test dummy". Many second runs were within 0.3% of the first when we were testing helmets. Some were clearly better than others well beyond what would be considered for any noise. Looking at some other riders...they were all over the place. I doubt this will change if they are actually pedaling around a velodrome.

    You can do some pretty effective testing outdoors, provided the right conditions. And an indoor velodrome is certainly a good test location. Both have more noise than a good tunnel, and aren't as an effective use of time and won't differentiate as finely as a tunnel. I say this having seen a lot of results from both.

    The biggest advantage to a tunnel though, is the ability to test at different yaw angles, something you can't do in a field test. Knowing a wheel might stall in a 15 degree crosswind but may be very fast at zero degrees has more real world impact than what you may see at zero (unless your always racing indoors). And you see some really good and really bad reactions when you start moving things from yaw angle to yaw angle.

    As far as the most aerodynamic position not producing the "fastest" position, that's absolutely the case wherever you test. And the "best" position is different for different distances. A 2k pursuit position may not be a good 40k position may not be a good Ironman position. That's not to say that most Triatheletes don't have horrible positions.

    They do.

    I worked with the wife of a teammate who has been a high age group finisher at Kona several times, last year she would have won except for a flat that cost her 15 minutes. After tweaking her position (a lot) she pretty much destroyed all her cycling PB's. It was a less aggressive position than I set up for another athlete who did sprint tris who also set PB's.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 03-26-12 at 04:24 PM.

  12. #2787
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Having watched as the tunnel was put together at FASTER, talked to the engineers, etc., I'm with Ex on this. The FASTER tunnel can rotate the bike platform 360* relative to the wind direction, and they combine it with metabolic testing to home in on the optimum position, not just the most aero position. If I have an issue with wind tunnel data, it's because the tunnels are far less noisy than the real world. We ride mostly in 'dirty air', even when not right behind someone, and wind tunnel air is extremely clean. If there is a bike, or a car, or a structure, or anything else.. even quite a distance ahead of you, it is 'roughing up' the air you are moving through. Getting the air aligned before it hits the bike is one of the key factors in wind tunnel design. The FASTER tunnel is a relatively compact circle, with baffles to get the air clean as it hits the test platform. Far cleaner than the real world, and I suspect the measurement is more precise than the instruments on our bikes. You can see the wall curving away behind the bike as it heads around to be recirculated through the (7') fan and baffles.

    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  13. #2788
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    One of my 50+ teammates in the tunnel:
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  14. #2789
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Side view from one of my A2 runs:


  15. #2790
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    You're looking quite a bit slipperier than our guy.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  16. #2791
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    National champions tend to look slippery.

  17. #2792
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    National champions tend to look slippery.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  18. #2793
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Really enjoyed this workout on my morning commute:

    BT: Warm-up well. Then on a 6-8% hill do 6-7 x 2 minutes at 285-325 watts. At 30 seconds, 60 seconds, and 90 seconds attack at a high effort for 8 pedal revolutions - After each attack sit back down and continue the climb at 285-325. Take 4 minute recoveries after each 2-minute interval. Stay "on-top" of your gear, smooth, powerful pedal strokes. Cool down with at least 15-20 minutes of easy riding.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  19. #2794
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Side view from one of my A2 runs:

    Best short film in a wind tunnel.



    My panel of experts would give you an A+. Head down, arms in, helmet with visor matches contour of shoulder with no gaps and max body rotation toward the bars. I assume the position is UCI legal.

    I talked with one of the pro riders after the presentation and asked him how well he could see. The answer was not well and the chase car called out the turns and the hazards via radio.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  20. #2795
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Really enjoyed this workout on my morning commute:

    BT: Warm-up well. Then on a 6-8% hill do 6-7 x 2 minutes at 285-325 watts. At 30 seconds, 60 seconds, and 90 seconds attack at a high effort for 8 pedal revolutions - After each attack sit back down and continue the climb at 285-325. Take 4 minute recoveries after each 2-minute interval. Stay "on-top" of your gear, smooth, powerful pedal strokes. Cool down with at least 15-20 minutes of easy riding.

    I have a simular workout for Saturday. Only I have to keep my recovery watts above 215 and not L5. I'll probably launch the jumps from a 95 cadence and up it to completion.


    Saturday, 3-31: Bike – After a thorough warm-up do 3-5 sets of 5 jumps each for a total of 15-25 jumps. Concentrate on producing explosive power from the very first pedal stroke. Each jump should be 10-12 revolutions of the cranks (each leg) while standing on the pedals and holding onto the handlebars deep in the drops. Cadence should be very high. Intensity is Level 7. Recovery should be no less than Level 3 for at least 1 minute between jumps and 5 minutes between sets. Maintain good form on each jump.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  21. #2796
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    You fatties are too tough. I did a Velo Sports Center workout 30"z1 1'z3 1'z2 30"z4 1'z2 1'z3 repeat 5 times and do two sets. Blue HR Red Pwr

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  22. #2797
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    You fatties are too tough.

    I like our black kit since it is slimming and hides dirt.

    http://sb.smugmug.com/Sports/Mountai...bz8Xh&lb=1&s=A
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  23. #2798
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I did mine starting at different cadences, Jet, looking for what felt right. I spin out at a significantly lower cadence than you. I didn't think to get in the drops on the climb, though I should have.

    I have crit's Saturday and Sunday, and plan on doing both 50+ and 4-5 each day. The 4-5 races fit schedule wise with the 50+ better than the 3-4, so I'll be taking a deep breath and mixing it up with folks who ride like I used to not long ago. There is also a pure 5 race, and I'm hoping that makes the 4-5 a bit safer. I'll be in attack mode again. "I Come In Peace. Ack-Ack-Ack. BOOM!"

    One area I want to test is how my 3-5' power stacks up with the 50+ crowd. I feel that's my sweet spot, and I need to find the best ways to leverage it. The Saturday course is a totally flat 1 mile figure 8 I haven't yet ridden. I'll attack and just see what pans out.

    The Sunday races are on the State Crit course, which is also the Tuesday night course, so I know it well. I may conserve a bit in the 50+ Sunday so I can test what I feel is a likely strategy for the 55-59 state crit: attack in the final turn leading up to the two-to-go. It's a rise from that corner to turn 1, and it's a natural attack point that often thins the pack. None of the sprinters are going to want to lay it all out there for what will be about 4 minutes. There are two other natural attack points. One is towards the end of the rise. It gets a touch steeper, and the pack almost always slows there, setting up for turn 1, and the downhill to turn 2. That's the plan B attack point. Plan C is the very slightly downhill back straight. People tend to slow approaching turn 3, when it's a turn you can take flat out. Since I never see my 55+ competition on Tuesday nights, I know there will be many folks at the state crit who are not as familiar with the course. I intend to use my local knowledge and any 3-5' advantage I have. Sunday should help me learn how to best do that.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  24. #2799
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    AZTR, keep in mind that when you attack that you need to get separation or you will just pull your competition to their win. Today's workout that you did should help with the separation part. It's more like " I'm a peaceful dude who is along for the Sunday ride, ...KABOOM!!!"
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  25. #2800
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Best short film in a wind tunnel.
    Cue up the Sally Field Oscar acceptance speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I assume the position is UCI legal.
    Yessir. That's why I went there...needed to find the best UCI legal position before Nats. Of course then they were waving through people with seats 5cm in front of their flipping handlebars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I talked with one of the pro riders after the presentation and asked him how well he could see. The answer was not well and the chase car called out the turns and the hazards via radio.
    I compromise by glancing up the road every 4-5 seconds. Otherwise I can turtle pretty well if I need to look ahead. Testing on the road is a pain though.

    Decided my focus for the year will be the 2k. Spent a bunch of hours today working on a spreadsheet that pretty much says if I do it all correctly, I could produce a really good ride.

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