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  1. #2801
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    <snip> I compromise by glancing up the road every 4-5 seconds. Otherwise I can turtle pretty well if I need to look ahead. Testing on the road is a pain though.

    Decided my focus for the year will be the 2k. Spent a bunch of hours today working on a spreadsheet that pretty much says if I do it all correctly, I could produce a really good ride.
    BTW, thanks for your comments. I really appreciate them.

    On a UCI note, effective April 1, you and I lose our elite rider status that we achieved by racing in Elite Nationals last year. No tears will be shed.

    I had four TTs scuttled for whatever reason so besides a couple more local road TTs, the rest of my racing with be on the track.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  2. #2802
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Our region just (finally) updated our season points standings. Team is in 3rd overall, with the leader in several categories. I'm 10th (of 17 racers with points) in 55-59. Feels good to be on the list!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  3. #2803
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Congrats, AZT. There'll be plenty of riders without points!
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  4. #2804
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    One area I want to test is how my 3-5' power stacks up with the 50+ crowd. I feel that's my sweet spot, and I need to find the best ways to leverage it. The Saturday course is a totally flat 1 mile figure 8 I haven't yet ridden. I'll attack and just see what pans out.
    This is how I do it. Wait until a couple of breaks have been pulled back and you are about to absorb the next one. Position yourself on the outside of the field about 15 riders back. Do a seated sprint, i.e. kilo launch swinging out a little but not too much so that you can get a good suck off of the pack before you're off. Spin up hard once you're OTF, shifting up, going full tilt. If anyone can stay with you, they're probably strong enough to make it stick, or they're a sprinter who you're going to burn off. If you attack out of the saddle, not only do you lose the suck from the pack, you set off the alarms, especially in Cat4.

    Good luck.

  5. #2805
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    This is how I do it. Wait until a couple of breaks have been pulled back and you are about to absorb the next one. Position yourself on the outside of the field about 15 riders back. Do a seated sprint, i.e. kilo launch swinging out a little but not too much so that you can get a good suck off of the pack before you're off. Spin up hard once you're OTF, shifting up, going full tilt. If anyone can stay with you, they're probably strong enough to make it stick, or they're a sprinter who you're going to burn off. If you attack out of the saddle, not only do you lose the suck from the pack, you set off the alarms, especially in Cat4.

    Good luck.
    At least in the Cat4/5, there will be attacks to counter. As Cleave can attest, our Masters races here can sometimes feel like a group ride, until the sprint. He thinks we are just good hosts when he visits, giving him a nice pack to draft, so don't tell him we really do that all the time.

    I'm exaggerating, but not by that much. Of course there really isn't that much time for a lot of different attacks in a 30-40' crit, unless they are getting reeled in right away. The 50+ group here tends to just yawn when someone takes off, then look over at the known fast guys and wait for them to decide it's time to race. Those few guys have the speed to close it down pretty darned fast if they get worried. One of those guys is a teammate, and I'm loath to jump on when they take off late (I should be blocking after all), though I suspect he'd be fine with it if I did, given his points lead. So in the 50+, I'll be looking to break fairly early if I do, leaving it for him to counter if they reel me in. But I'll be talking to my teammates before the 50+ (there are as many as 4 of us), letting them know I want to attack, and seeing how that works in with the team dynamics. With our leader so far ahead in the points, we may shift to support another teammate who is currently only a few points out of 4th.

    Sunday will be different for the 50+, as I want to test the 2 lap scenario. But again, I'll need to talk to the team. Our team is big on teamwork, and I love that.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #2806
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Sunday will be different for the 50+, as I want to test the 2 lap scenario. But again, I'll need to talk to the team. Our team is big on teamwork, and I love that.
    I would love for you to me on my team.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  7. #2807
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Those few guys have the speed to close it down pretty darned fast if they get worried. One of those guys is a teammate, and I'm loath to jump on when they take off late (I should be blocking after all).
    I should write this in a really small font so no one else hears...

    Talk to your strongman. Tell him you want to go right after the first prime and ask if he'll bridge up to you. Or go over to a guy(s) on the other strongmen teams and tell them you're going to go after the first (or second or whatever) prime. Come with?

    If you can't solo to the finish stack the odds in your favor. Work some deals.

    If your guy goes it's OK to go with, as long as you don't take anyone with you. Separation is key.

    I hate that group ride/Cat4 field sprint mentality.

  8. #2808
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Hill Training.

    It's not as fast as what y'all do, but for early spring it gives me hope and is better than this time last year.

    As long as I continue to improve I can deal with the setbacks and off-days a little better.

    Enjoying spring; looking forward to getting faster and stronger.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

    Visit my blog.

  9. #2809
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    I should write this in a really small font so no one else hears...

    Talk to your strongman. Tell him you want to go right after the first prime and ask if he'll bridge up to you. Or go over to a guy(s) on the other strongmen teams and tell them you're going to go after the first (or second or whatever) prime. Come with?

    If you can't solo to the finish stack the odds in your favor. Work some deals.

    If your guy goes it's OK to go with, as long as you don't take anyone with you. Separation is key.

    I hate that group ride/Cat4 field sprint mentality.
    I do not know if you recall this but we had a lot of bad crashes in the Cat 4s in NorCal a couple of years ago. There were many theories but to summarize it was the nature of the large field staying together (no one pushing the pace), poor cornering skills and sprinting for 30the place. The faster the race i.e. more strung out, the safer the race. If you are not in position to take points, roll in with the field and look to the next race for results.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #2810
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I do not know if you recall this but we had a lot of bad crashes in the Cat 4s in NorCal a couple of years ago. There were many theories but to summarize it was the nature of the large field staying together (no one pushing the pace), poor cornering skills and sprinting for 30the place. The faster the race i.e. more strung out, the safer the race. If you are not in position to take points, roll in with the field and look to the next race for results.
    There is a debate raging in the 33 about out of contention pack sprints. So far, my Masters sprints have stretched out and opened up nicely, and I've only been bumped once, on the corner leading to the finish. Another time, I heard the sound of spokes hitting something, but nobody went down, and of course I've also had to avoid a wheel now and then as people wound it up at differing rates of acceleration. But I've always been top 5 or 10 leading to the sprint, which is easier here than in CA, as our fields are dramatically smaller. A 50+ crit will have around 30 starters; 55+ a bit less. The 4-5 will be a much larger pack, with a much greater speed and experience differential. Staying out of the pack (and shrinking it) is yet another reason to attack. BTW, our team also has a guy who has won the last couple of Cat5 races by sprinting clear at the end.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  11. #2811
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post

    If your guy goes it's OK to go with, as long as you don't take anyone with you. Separation is key.
    This. You will be much more effective doing the majority of the work in the break than sitting on the front of the field blocking and chasing. Even if you take another rider with you, you can always work him over in the break.

  12. #2812
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    A 50+ crit will have around 30 starters
    Haha. I wish.

  13. #2813
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    A 50+ crit will have around 30 starters; 55+ a bit less.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Haha. I wish.
    Really!

    Last two 50+ criteriums: 100 starters (sold out and turned away people who wanted to race) and 90 starters. Neither field was appreciably smaller at the end. Racer Ex won the 100 rider crit from a 1st lap break. The respective 55 / 60+ races (race together scored separately) had >60 starters and 62 starters.

    I'd like to know from where all of these old guys are coming.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  14. #2814
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Y'all should visit us here in AZ more to enjoy the wide open passing lanes, usually good pavement (except in Tucson!), and safer sprints.

    Sunday's "Not So Underground Criterium" should be an absolute blast. The promotor, who 'doesn't organize' the Tuesday night crit's on the same course, is pulling out all the stops: DJ, Barrett-Jackson type pace cars (neutral first laps), 10 lap repeating prime for the P123 at $50 a lap, 5 laps of that for the women. Lots of other good prime swag, food vendors, etc. The course is great, with a rise (62' of gain each lap) that's enough to get the heart pumping without being too brutal. And you can pretty much crank it through all the corners: my fastest lap there so far averaged 29.2, with a 38 max, at 421w.

    Come crash our party!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #2815
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I went to the track this AM. I started with a 25 minute warmup in 78 gear inches. I gear up and did two full power standing starts 1/2 lap efforts with complete recovery. I then did 3x1Kilo efforts using the motor to wind me up to speed and do the last 250 meters on my own. I had full recovery between efforts. i finished with a 20 lap motor warm down.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  16. #2816
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    AZT, I'll be out there at the end of June, but I don't think there are any races at that time of year.

  17. #2817
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    AZT, I'll be out there at the end of June, but I don't think there are any races at that time of year.
    There is this Omnium, up in the mountains, but it's more mid-June (16th and 17th): http://www.bikethebluff.com/

    I had a good time last year, despite the really high winds for the crit.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  18. #2818
    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post

    Come crash our party!
    Whoa there, cowboy. That seems a poor choice of words........

  19. #2819
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    Whoa there, cowboy. That seems a poor choice of words........
    Good point.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  20. #2820
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    I'd like to know from where all of these old guys are coming.
    AARP ranches. They got a whole breeding program going.

  21. #2821
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    There is this Omnium, up in the mountains, but it's more mid-June (16th and 17th): http://www.bikethebluff.com/

    I had a good time last year, despite the really high winds for the crit.
    I'll be in Scottsdale right before the holiday. I'm bringing the bike. Maybe we can go for a ride.

  22. #2822
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    I'll be in Scottsdale right before the holiday. I'm bringing the bike. Maybe we can go for a ride.
    Sounds like a plan...
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  23. #2823
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Okay... let's suppose I'm off the front with one other cooperative fellow. What's a reasonable pull length? 10s? 30s? 60s? I'm thinking that making them very long really sets you up for the attack as you get near the end.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  24. #2824
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    It depends on may factors.

    How clear are you from the field?
    How many laps left in the race?
    Is anyone chasing?
    Is there wind, a hill, or other feature that would make one leg harder than another?

    The last thing you want to do is blow up out there.

    I try and do just a little bit less than the other guy. I don't attack, I always follow, because I'd rather take my chances in the sprint from behind. But that's just me. I bet RacerEx would do the opposite.

  25. #2825
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Okay... let's suppose I'm off the front with one other cooperative fellow. What's a reasonable pull length? 10s? 30s? 60s? I'm thinking that making them very long really sets you up for the attack as you get near the end.
    Same as a TTT to start with...pull off before you start to fade. If you wait till you think you need to pull off you've burned a match. Good rotation I'd say 15-18 seconds. I usually look at who I'm in the break with and how I stack up. If I know I can burn them off my wheel I'll take longer pulls to get the break established, then try to keep things even.

    I've taken longer pulls just to give guys some rest and keep them in the break knowing that if they pop, their teams will start chasing.

    But I'm not going to be a hero and blow myself out of the break either. At Gila one year I wasn't having a great day and ended up in a break with a guy who had done 4 grand tours, one 2x olympian, 2 national champs, and one world champ. Of the six of us I was the weakest. I told the guys I was down on GC, and that I'd give them everything I had but I didn't have a full tank and wouldn't contest the finish. I stayed true to my word and kept the pace high, and sat out once in a while when I needed to recover. Nothing kills a break faster than one guy who drops the speed 3 MPH whenever he goes to the front.

    Interesting in that one of the guys was deliberately surging when I pulled off. I finally stuck him out in the wind and matched him pedal stroke for pedal stroke. He took the hint and we were dead smooth after that. Which is really another key point to making a break work.

    Smooooooooth.

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