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  1. #2826
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Amen. Smooth is #1. Everything else is secondary.

  2. #2827
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tips guys. We'll see how things unfold tomorrow.

    On a different note, my commitments to the different facets of my life are being sorely tested. Team captain/LBS owner has started holding motor-pacing drills... on Thursday mornings! Top end speed is a major weakness of mine. Using a slight hill as a leadout to ~30, and sprinting from there, I top out at 34-35 Peak power is a under 1,000, and it's hard for me to generate that while getting really aero. Lots of work to do.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  3. #2828
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Sprint workouts are a good way to add top end speed. This is my favorite. You have to have good speed base onboard before doing it, though.

    Find a flat to slightly downhill stretch about a mile long. If the end tips up, that's OK too. All sprints are rolling starts.

    15' warmup, Z1.
    6x10" small ring. I use 39-14. Start at 10mph and jump hard for 10" out of the saddle, spinning up to over 140rpm. 3' rest interval.
    3x250m 53-17. Start at 22mph. Jump hard and hold for 250m. 3' rest interval.
    5' rest interval before the next set.
    3x250m 53-16. Start at 24mph. Jump hard and hold for 250m. 3' rest interval.
    5' rest interval before the next set.
    1x250m 53-15. Start at 27mph. Jump hard and hold for 250m. Limp home.
    15' warmdown Z1.

    It's good to do these close to home as your legs should be wiped.

  4. #2829
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post

    It's good to do these close to home as your legs should be wiped.
    Good grief. "Limp home" sounds about right.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  5. #2830
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, Since you hate gym work, I suggest doing ShovelHD's workout but substitute a couple of full power standing starts in 90 gear inches with complete recovery between sets. You can do these by getting in your 90 gear inches and rolling up to almost a complete stop and with a pedal at the 10 o'clock position thrust forward and push done with one leg and pull up with the other as hard as possible with your arms straight. Do not rock the bike. Strength development is about maximum effort. If you do not recover enough or do to much, you do not go deep enough into the red on the efforts and recruit muscle fibers. This is the primary thing we see when roadies show up at the track. They want to ride constantly and fast. What they do not know is that their "fast" and acceleration is slow by track standards. The way to get really fast is to really work hard when you feel great. So the roadies at the track are perpetually tired. When I work out with track sprinters, we are resting most of the time. The other times we go as hard a possible.

    Endurance is a speed killer.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #2831
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    IMO, motor pacing behind a motor cycle is best way to build speed at race wattage. It is the ultimate carrot, truly addictive and the best adult E ticket ride. Also, nothing under 100 rpm and 120 is better. Also, the key to a good workout is having a great motor pacer. I only motor pace behind a motor cycle. A cyclist can can handle most anything a motor cycle can ride over but motor pacing behind a van or car is nuts. If the driver goes over a piece of wood or rock on the road, the cyclist is toast if he hits it. Sudden stops and you are in the van. When I motor pace, I always have a plan and if something happens to the motor, I am going right around him rubber side down. And things do happen. On the road, I had a van stop in front of the motor cycle and I went right around. Also, the motor got a rear flat. So be prepared. My favorite motor pacing is at the track with an experienced motor pacer.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  7. #2832
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Here is my work for tomorrow:

    Saturday, 3-31: Bike After a thorough warm-up do 3-5 sets of 5 jumps each for a total of 15-25 jumps. Concentrate on producing explosive power from the very first pedal stroke. Each jump should be 10-12 revolutions of the cranks (each leg) while standing on the pedals and holding onto the handlebars deep in the drops. Cadence should be very high. Intensity is Level 7. Recovery should be no* less than Level 3 for at least 1 minute between jumps and 5 minutes between sets. Maintain good form on each jump

    I'm doing the workout with 5-7 buddies that should help with the HTFU factor. I am aiming for 1,100 watts for each rep on the first 3 sets and 1,000+ for the last 10 efforts. One month to the first crit of significance.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  8. #2833
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    That's a great workout, Shovel - thanks.

    Hermes, from what I'm told, the shop has someone who added a roller to his motorcycle for the pacing work. You'd have to trust a car driver even more, but either way, if you describe motor-pacing to a non-cyclist, you get some really entertaining looks!

    And your point is well taken on the approach we roadies tend to take. I'm a great example of it, and I know I didn't do enough redline work this season. Part of it was a late/extended base, driven by what turned out to be a fubar metabolic test result, which almost eliminated any real build phase prior to the season starting. Part of it had to do with my specific major goals. I've met most of those already, and may make a clean sweep of them, so the approach has been okay: I just know I could have done better had I done more HIT. Right now I'm an extreme version of the roadie. I'll grind you down to nothing at a pretty decent pace, so long as you never push the requirements beyond my limit. I think Ben Stone calls that the "Aerobic Collar" - something like that - and it's my most glaring weakness right now, along with my slow top end.

    I intend to take my break earlier this year, then pile on the base, and start the high intensity early enough to be looking good for VOS.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #2834
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    Good grief. "Limp home" sounds about right.
    I didn't even add the power targets.

    You can upshift 1x-2x in the big ring intervals to keep the power on.

  10. #2835
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    AZT, Since you hate gym work, I suggest doing ShovelHD's workout but substitute a couple of full power standing starts in 90 gear inches with complete recovery between sets.
    How about 87 gear inches? With a 53 ring, it's either 87 or 93. Of course, with my Q-Rings, it depends on which part of the stroke you measure!

    By the way, I don't think I'll ever race on a round ring again. My sense is that my power just ramps a whole lot better with the Q-Rings. Soft pedaling it seems lower, and then it ramps up higher/faster when I apply torque. I'd be more positive if I sent my Quarq in for a calibration check, or hung weights on it myself to validate the slope, however everything just feels right to me, so I'm going with it. One does have to be very precise with FD adjustment. There is a big gap between the ring and the guide when the smaller diameter section of the ring is passing through, and that make it more susceptible to a chain drop going to the BR if everything isn't spot on. I was shifting very carefully there for awhile, but I have it squared away now.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  11. #2836
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT. racing is redline work. Most power records I set are in races or groups. I like to train with racers much better than me. I would workout with the elite 1/2s if they would allow me. You need to get popped off the back more.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  12. #2837
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    If you do three starts I suggest 87 93 87. I do my 500 in 92.5 and my elite friends use 96 and higher. If you are doing this for the first time do 80%.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  13. #2838
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Azt. The other great motor game to increase power is chase the motor. You stay about 5 bike lengths behind the motor and slow roll to 3 mph. You are in a 93. The motor accelerates and you try to catch it. Do 500 meters the motor is always a couple of bike lengths ahead. It is very tough since you will be going as hard as possible.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #2839
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    AZT. racing is redline work. Most power records I set are in races or groups. I like to train with racers much better than me. I would workout with the elite 1/2s if they would allow me. You need to get popped off the back more.
    That's why I race with P/1/2's as much as possible, 1x-2x/week in season. Sprinting against them is pointless, though, hence the sprint workouts.

  15. #2840
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    That's what my Tuesday nights are for: mixing it up with the P/1/2's, and yes, I certainly redline it. After the finish, I always ride off a bit cooling down, so I can hack in relative privacy. Several of my power records are from Tuesday nights, and it's also a skills session for me. But I'm not really redlining much in my interval training. I just haven't felt as pushed physically this season, although there is a lot of work in my legs at the moment. I did my race prep intervals yesterday as a result, and am resting today for the big weekend.

    When the team was doing pre-season group rides, that would always push me to the limit, but we haven't done a team group ride since the season got going. The only times I've visited offthebackistan recently were on the mass start hill climb three weeks ago, and one lap of last week's Tuesday night session.

    I posted my intent to attack on the team's super-secret Facebook page. So far, the response is that if two of us try to get in a break together, the pack will freak out and chase us right away. So I'm planning the suggested 'first prime' attack: stay close to the lead without challenging for the prime, make it look like I'm just closing whatever gap the prime winner has created (if I'm not riding his wheel), then launch past him, in the hopes he jumps on. It should give me a relatively smooth and protected acceleration.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  16. #2841
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post

    You can upshift 1x-2x in the big ring intervals to keep the power on.
    I think you mean you can upshift In the big ring intervals.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  17. #2842
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    1 hour TT workout yesterday. On a rest interval from a track session simulation workout on the trainer. I cannot wait for the second set.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  18. #2843
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Well, I'm back from today's race, and I was schooled. Fun, and learned a lot on my way to offthebackistan.

    08:30 40' M50+ 25-30 starters: Early in the first lap, my strongest teammate went to the front and soft-pedaled, with one of the other fast guys (2nd in 55+ points) to his right.. he basically had most of the field blocked, and I took advantage, doing a smooth seated acceleration on the left. I grew a significant gap, but then was reeled in. One guy got to me before the pack, and we tried to work it, but couldn't stay away. I set a 5 minute power record in those first few laps of 381w. I need to find me some slipperiness. When the pack enveloped us, I stayed near the front to try and respond to any counters. The combination of the break, trying to hold it a bit long when I was joined, and then working to be ready for a counter did me in. I never really recovered, and was OTB. Lessons learned. It was hard course to recover on, as it's dead flat. Made it the finish without being pulled, as I was only lapped by my strongman teammate, who showed how it was done by winning with a 2 man break. BTW, there is huge difference between our 50+ and our 55+ fields.

    10:25 40' C4-5 40-50 starters: The corners absolutely freaked me out. Having finally gotten used to riding with guys who keep the speed up through the corners, I found myself braking to avoid plowing into the guys ahead of me, who would be slowing when I expected them to be accelerating. And that was in the top 10-15. Not good. I just couldn't get a feel for the pack, didn't want to cause a crash, didn't feel up to getting around to the front, and so I drifted back. I ended up pulling a few stragglers around until we were yanked.

    A lot of hard riding, some good experience, but no results today.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  19. #2844
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I completed my 25 x 12 rotation L7 OTS sprints today. The workout went very well and I was with 3 teammates who are also master racers. I would be at 90 rpm and 275 to 300 watts when I launched the efforts. Recovery within the sets was riding at 225+ watts for 1'. I was able to sustain explosive power through the entire 5 sets of 5 reps. Isolating the intervals on Power Agent showed that I obtained 1,200+ watts on 7 reps, 1,100+ watts on 13 reps and 1,000+ watts on the remaining 5 reps. I had 5" ave of 1,000+ watts on all but 2 reps with 11 reps that exceeded 1,100 watts. Cadence OTS usually topped out at 120- 125 rpm in 12 revolution efforts. I get to do the same workout next week and will be anxious to compare the results.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  20. #2845
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'd love to race with sometime Jet, but I'd most certainly leave the sprinting to you.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  21. #2846
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    It was a humbling day, AZT. We all have them. Lessons learned. You will do better next time.

  22. #2847
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    "Sometimes you're the windshield; sometimes you're the bug."
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  23. #2848
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I'd love to race with sometime Jet, but I'd most certainly leave the sprinting to you.
    One never knows AZTR. I'm fortunate this year in that a significant racer from the past decided to give the sport a go again. He is 55 yrs old and established in his career as a pathologist and was looking for a physical challenge. He attended our indoor training sessions and we developed a friendship. Back in the day he was was one of Ohio's top 5 racers and even went to the Olympic Trails in road and TT. He joined my team and we have been training some together since December indoors and outside while riding fixies. Now, he wants to get back into the sport and hopes to be a good lead-out since sprinting was not his speciality. We have done training rides and practiced sprinting with Joe leading out. I'm really looking forward to the 55+ races this year. No more Lone Ranger races.

    Shake off today as a learning experience. I have yet to predict a race outcome unless it was OTB when I was a Cat 5.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  24. #2849
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm totally okay with today. It was more about probing with new approaches than getting results. My overriding objective for the season has been to learn to race, and this is all part of it.

    Tomorrow, I'm going to go ahead and try the 4-5 again, and stay far enough up to hopefully avoid the accordion and feel more comfortable. On the 50+, I'll try the late, 2+ laps to go, attack.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  25. #2850
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Did both races today in really REALLY strong wind. Dead into it on the back straight, and if you were in front it was like making the turn into a wall. 20+ with gusts well above that. In the 4-5 I stayed to the front, worked with teammates (our 15 year old got the win), took a couple of pulls, and dropped off the pack as we neared the finish, rather than mixing it up in the sprint. The course really encourages fast corners, and there was no sketchiness. Having a neutral first lap, with a pace-bike is, IMO, a nice way to go. Gets things up to speed safely, with no worries/excuses about losing the race by missing a clip-in. The pro races had a pace car: the 67 Mustang used in the movie Bullet.

    In the 50+, there were 4 of us again, but a different 4, since one of us spent post-race yesterday in our pavilion with an IV drip, after his heart rate went crazy during the race. "Faster: offering post-ace intravenous rehydration". I did as planned and was a wheel sucking parasite for most of the race, though I did test things a couple of times. Our #1 guy led a post-prime break, and our other strong guy did a perfectly timed bridge as I did my best to slow things. Not very successfully, but they didn't need it anyway and were away clean - quickly out of reach for those of us left in the pack. I tried the 2 to go attack, and then an into the wind last lap attack, but they figuratively laughed at me. I didn't have enough to make either one work. I was swarmed, and well back in the pack at the line. Team got 1st and 4th. Another great weekend for the team, as we are starting o really work well together.

    So two pack finishes today, after a hard day yesterday. It confirms that I can hang with the packs, even when pretty well worked, which is new and nice. But pack finishes are kinda like cheap wine, huh?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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