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  1. #3276
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi Hermes, thanks for the encouragement and kind words. It's always a pleasure to see and ride with you and Velo Diva. My experience is that if I'm climbing in anything smaller than a 39 X 23 on a climb of 6% or less, I'm going to get dropped. I had a 25 for last week's race where there were some 8% ramps. I got dropped anyway.

    AzTR, looking forward to giving you a lead out in SoCal.

    Today was a really strange day. Can't get into the details for several reasons but everything is basically fine right now. I ended up riding 56 miles instead of 100+ miles so I guess I'll have to race harder in tomorrow's TT. My, I have plenty of excuses, no pressure race is out the window.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  2. #3277
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    We did the HDC track session last night - warmup, 2x20 intervals and 50 lap motor game. I lasted until lap 46 of the motor game where I spun out in 90.6 gear inches. I did the session in aerobars. As far as fatigue and breathing, I was fine but with a kilo to go (4 laps), I did not have enough rpms left to keep matching the acceleration to the finish.
    Intensity really is king. I took a fairly common path into cycling, riding with a club that emphasized longer and longer distances. Fortunately, this usually involved climbing, so I stumbled into some intensity unintentionally. A couple years into the sport, I had read plenty of the usual literature that highlighted the critical importance of intensity to getting stronger/faster. But I can recall two epiphanies in particular that really made this hit home.

    1) My first "speed work" training ride -- not quite a practice crit trainer, but close. I was in pretty good climbing shape at the time, but got dropped from the first lap of this ride. I was baffled. Part of that was mental, just understanding the flow. But a significant part was also physical... my inexperience with that specific kind of intensity. It only took a few weeks (of this once/week ride) to see surprising results.

    2) Roger's sessions at the Velo Sports Center. When I first started doing these, I was at a fairly stagnant point in my training. I was astounded at how rapidly this track work improved both my fitness and power. It really isn't too surprising in retrospect, given that I have never had the discipline to do anything remotely like intervals on my own... and Roger's sessions are intense and interval-ish. That the track is so fun, just makes this the biggest win-win in cycling for me.
    Last edited by VanceMac; 05-06-12 at 07:43 PM.

  3. #3278
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Track yesterday on the new pursuit rig. Some flying kilos, a couple of standing starts, then 5 CdA runs testing out some equipment. With warmup 75 TSS and my legs are sore today.

    Old eyes are a PIA. I thought I was warming up on an 86. Last lap on the group warm up I'm on the front. No one came around. Turns out I mis-read the rear cog and I was on an 81. This would explain the 144RPM and my bouncing along like a rabbit.

    More tests to come.

  4. #3279
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Track yesterday on the new pursuit rig. Some flying kilos, a couple of standing starts, then 5 CdA runs testing out some equipment. With warmup 75 TSS and my legs are sore today.

    Old eyes are a PIA. I thought I was warming up on an 86. Last lap on the group warm up I'm on the front. No one came around. Turns out I mis-read the rear cog and I was on an 81. This would explain the 144RPM and my bouncing along like a rabbit.

    More tests to come.
    I think that track workouts are a lot harder on a per pedal revolution metric basis than the road. I did a couple of sprint tournaments and was very sore and fatigued the next day. My hypo is that there has to be a track multiplier for the TSS score and that the formulation that calculates TSS does not accurately reflect how hard the workout was.

    On the 250 track, we have to start out at a much higher speed to keep from slipping down the track putting out more effort than I would like. At Hellyer, we can go slower at the start and warmup more slowly. Of course, one could warmup off the track on rollers which many do.

    You are not alone in putting on the wrong gears. According to a woman VSP racer who trained with Sarah Hammer. Sarah used to race in an 88. She accidentally used a 14 on the rear versus a 15 that put her in a 94.5. She did much better racing in the bigger gear and now races in a 96.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #3280
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    It wasn't cycling, but it was a race. At the Wildflower Triathlon, my team, the Loopin' Lupine Ladies, Masters Women, took third in the Olympic Distance Relay. The conditions were horrid, 90 plus degrees, but we did it. I had the toughest run I've ever experienced, and I blew up on San Antonio Hill, but I got it back and finished fairly strong. It was enough, and we made the podium.

    Whew...

    Now, back to bicycle racing!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  6. #3281
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Intensity really is king. I took a fairly common path into cycling, riding with a club that emphasized longer and longer distances. Fortunately, this usually involved climbing, so I stumbled into some intensity unintentionally. A couple years into the sport, I had read plenty of the usual literature that highlighted the critical importance of intensity to getting stronger/faster. But I can recall two epiphanies in particular that really made this hit home.

    1) My first "speed work" training ride -- not quite a practice crit trainer, but close. I was in pretty good climbing shape at the time, but got dropped from the first lap of this ride. I was baffled. Part of that was mental, just understanding the flow. But a significant part was also physical... my inexperience with that specific kind of intensity. It only took a few weeks (of this once/week ride) to see surprising results.

    2) Roger's sessions at the Velo Sports Center. When I first started doing these, I was at a fairly stagnant point in my training. I was astounded at how rapidly this track work improved both my fitness and power. It really isn't too surprising in retrospect, given that I have never had the discipline to do anything remotely like intervals on my own... and Roger's sessions are intense and interval-ish. That the track is so fun, just makes this the biggest win-win in cycling for me.
    VanceMac: Welcome

    I started doing Roger's sessions last year when I visit SoCal. I really like them a lot. Roger loves those 20 to 60 second z4 bridging power efforts. And many of the racers at VSP can really pop off some amazing efforts so the pace is fast and you get the incentive to hold the wheel in front which I think is easier mentally than generating the effort solo.

    Prior to the 7PM, I watched his 4PM session, where he coaches his athletes, to get some ideas for workouts and later joined in. Many of the racers do the 4 to 7 workout and then do the 7 to 9. I have done the 4PM and then the warmup for the 7PM but by then I am cooked.

    The other guys to watch for ideas are Team USA's sprint team. These guys are reeeeeeally good and do some interesting drills.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  7. #3282
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    It was enough, and we made the podium
    Well done!
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  8. #3283
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Congrats Sara on the podium.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  9. #3284
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Way to go, Sara!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  10. #3285
    The Crank
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    I saw the British track team training at Manchester. One of the unforgettable sights was the flying 200 done behind a motorbike - from the top of the banking!

  11. #3286
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    VanceMac: Welcome
    Thanks Hermes. After reading through this thread/sub-forum, this seems to have the best signal-to-noise ratio on BF. At least for my curmudgeon sensibilties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Roger loves those 20 to 60 second z4 bridging power efforts. And many of the racers at VSP can really pop off some amazing efforts so the pace is fast and you get the incentive to hold the wheel in front which I think is easier mentally than generating the effort solo.
    Love this aspect. I do a lot of hard rides, road and mountain, but nothing beats the leg burn and warm endorphin glow after a Roger's Session.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I think that track workouts are a lot harder on a per pedal revolution metric basis than the road. I did a couple of sprint tournaments and was very sore and fatigued the next day. My hypo is that there has to be a track multiplier for the TSS score and that the formulation that calculates TSS does not accurately reflect how hard the workout was.
    Quite agree. I think it is a combination of several subtle factors, which results in yet another track win: very efficient workout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    You are not alone in putting on the wrong gears. According to a woman VSP racer who trained with Sarah Hammer. Sarah used to race in an 88. She accidentally used a 14 on the rear versus a 15 that put her in a 94.5. She did much better racing in the bigger gear and now races in a 96.
    On a related note, when I first started doing Roger's, I was a bit perplexed why everyone was changing cogs between the intervals and motor game. I naively thought "is that really necessary?" Didn't take long to realize what everyone here already knows. For me, (49x) 15t is perfect for the intervals, but spin out with 10 to go in motor game. The 14t is perfect for the motor game, but too sluggish for the intervals. Thank goodness for double-sided hubs.

  12. #3287
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Thanks Hermes. After reading through this thread/sub-forum, this seems to have the best signal-to-noise ratio on BF. At least for my curmudgeon sensibilties.
    Especially since more folks have found the thread and joined in. Let me add my welcome, but I think we've now reached our thread immigration limit for trackies!

    I'm working on getting a TT bike put together, but I understand that's the entry drug-bike for trackie addiction, so...
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  13. #3288
    Seņor Blues on the path's Avatar
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    Sara - that's fantastic that you got the podium. Way to go!!
    IMO, FWIW, CFM, YMMV, E PLURIBUS UNUM

  14. #3289
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Especially since more folks have found the thread and joined in. Let me add my welcome, but I think we've now reached our thread immigration limit for trackies!

    I'm working on getting a TT bike put together, but I understand that's the entry drug-bike for trackie addiction, so...
    Thanks AZ, but I'm just a poseur, so maybe I only count as half a person on the quota?

    I grew up in Scottsdale, btw. If you were riding there in the 80's, you may know my dad. I had not yet seen the light.

  15. #3290
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone!

    Next up..CCCX Circuit Race, June 3rd...
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  16. #3291
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Congrats, sarals!

  17. #3292
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    ShovelHD, From your report in the 33, congrats on a great day of racing this weekend.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  18. #3293
    Senior Member dadof7's Avatar
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    Had a nice tempo ride: AKA crit race. RATL #3 . A 1.2 mile loop in a park for 12 miles for the Cat 5s. Lasted longer than race #1; 2 laps this time and average speed is up , 22 this time 20 last time. Pulled a 15 year old around and shared some work with him, and gave him a pull for the last lap so he could "sprint " the finish to appease his fans. It was cool being the leadout. HR was still 170 average, but it felt easier, and more fun. Should be able to hang with a group in another month,.. or two,,, and be ready to race by......... April, 2013...Now back to my elongated base training..

  19. #3294
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Racer Ex, I was looking at some hill climb data from last year. A male / female tandem team placed 3rd up Kings Mountain in 20:32 with a VAM of 1821.6. They were ~ 1:30 behind the first place finisher who is the hill climb champion of Ireland. That is scary fast.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  20. #3295
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Racer Ex, I was looking at some hill climb data from last year. A male / female tandem team placed 3rd up Kings Mountain in 20:32 with a VAM of 1821.6. They were ~ 1:30 behind the first place finisher who is the hill climb champion of Ireland. That is scary fast.
    Indeed (throwing my Sean Kelly phrased used most on Eurosport in there).

    Congrats Sara and Shovel. Great work this weekend.

    Pouring over the test data from Sunday. CdA numbers look much better than my Elite Nats pursuit. I pretty much threw on my aerobar cockpit "as was". The result was a 4cm drop in elbow placement,and a tighter fit on a faster frame. The drag improvement was nearly 2mph at my 4km wattage for that event.

    So if you had a choice between going for the hour world record in your age group, or a win at track worlds, where would you point that stick?

  21. #3296
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Indeed (throwing my Sean Kelly phrased used most on Eurosport in there).
    I'll see your indeed and raise you a "playing the waiting game."


    So if you had a choice between going for the hour world record in your age group, or a win at track worlds, where would you point that stick?
    If I were in shape to break the hour record, I might just win the track worlds for fun as part of my training programme.

    Seriously, I am never going to face this choice unless I stay injury-free into my nineties. But I'm a bit of a romantic. The hour has a mystique like nothing else, IMO.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  22. #3297
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Thank you, Hermes and RacerEx. I am enjoying my rest week so far.

    Ex, no doubt in my mind. Hour record. It takes a very special person to accomplish something like that.

  23. #3298
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    The hour record and track worlds are two completely different training routines. The hour record is a large volume training routine with increasing intensity and a lot of track time. And you have to have the UCI officials present with timing equipment. Theoretically, that could be done at elite nationals at VSP assuming they have it there.

    Track worlds is a very pro event. I did it and just participating is an amazing experience. Winning and going on the podium for the playing of the national anthem and flag raising ceremony must be a total rush. I observed a lot of them.

    Since both are difficult to do and require specific training and focus, a lot has to do with money and time. I would go for stripes first and then the record.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  24. #3299
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Great results Sara and shovelhd! dadof7, I raced RATL on Sat and will be racing there again this week. We should meet up if you are racing this week
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  25. #3300
    Senior Member dadof7's Avatar
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    I have to work this Saturday . Love that race. It will be a sure measure of my progress for next year. I won't be racing again until the Shreve race June 10 th, if it happens, or the Wooster Crit June 16th.

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