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  1. #3801
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    For you ladies, here is a woman weighing 123 pounds doing a Getup with 28 kg.
    I'm not a lady, but I watched it with great appreciation.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  2. #3802
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomgdaly View Post
    What recovery regime do people use here?
    Feed immediately after a workout...I like a smoothy or recovery drink. 3:1 carbs/protien ratio. In the evening I use a foam roller and stretch, I will also use a Compex if I'm particularly tight or have a big workout the next day. It's good to get the legs up and stay off your feet after the workout...obviously doing a 3 hour ride then going to the mall with the wife for the afternoon isn't going to help things.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomgdaly View Post
    He has suggested trying a three-week cycle of two weeks effort and one recovery. Any thoughts welcome.
    I'm on a 2:1. It will definitely provide more recovery.

    I'd try that and see. If you're still having issues I would look at the following in this order:

    Volume of rest during the week
    Volume of hours
    Intensity of workouts

  3. #3803
    The Crank
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    From a recent block:
    Monday- rest
    Tues - local evening league race - 'ride to win' (some hope!)
    Wed - 1 hr easy- 90-100 rpm on flat or track
    Thurs - TT 18k league -'aim to cut 15 secs'
    Fri - rest
    Sat - 1hr with 5 x10sec sprints
    Sun - road race (Cat 4 - lowest Cat here in Ireland. Around 35-40 miles at 23 mph. I can usually get to the sprint but never have anything left and end up at the back of remains of the bunch over the line. There is no age-related scene in my neck of the woods).

    My friend/coach varies it quite a bit but I think three weeks of this kind of block is too much and my legs are tired all the time. I have a good base etc.
    I'm very average - doing 24mph on TTs on a good night - and I want to improve a lot - I empathise with Sarah! This is my third year of 'serious training' after years of just 'training'. I know I should probably get power and a coach but both cost a lot etc

  4. #3804
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    obviously doing a 3 hour ride then going to the mall with the wife for the afternoon isn't going to help things.
    Not your cycling, anyway. But an occasional mall trip can sure help you get all the feet up time you need.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  5. #3805
    Senior Member volosong's Avatar
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    Couldn't find the answer anywhere on-line. What is the correspondence between TT frame sizes and road frame sizes? For example, if my road frame has an eTT of 59cm, what would be the equivalent frame size for a TT bike? Or, is it more complicated than that?
    Deut 6:5

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    "Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is 'never get involved in a land war in Asia'".
    - Vizzini during his "battle of wits" with the Man in Black

  6. #3806
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomgdaly View Post
    What recovery regime do people use here? I find recovery slow and could spend more time training if I could sustain it - I rest and eat well etc.
    I struggle with this recovery issue (on both micro and macro levels) perhaps more than any other training related topic.

    On the micro level, most of my colleagues who are very comparable in age/performance, seem much better able to handle hard/long workouts on consecutive days (a particular perceived weakness of mine). And I believe I am better than most with recovery nutrition regimen. I do wonder, however, how much of this might be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and this is where I struggle. Perhaps I just need to do more of those consecutive day hard efforts to train my body to get used to them, rather than be so focused on recovery the day after big days.

    On the macro level, I will admit that I am not very structured with rest weeks. I take the approach that life hurdles (work travel, illness, minor injuries) crop up often enough that I'll work my rest weeks in around those. I am intrigued by Racer Ex's 2:1 ratio, though, as I have mostly only read/heard about 3:1 or higher. Since this year I have added more intensity than previous years, I wonder if it is something that might work better for me. Racer Ex, if you wouldn't mind, could you expand a bit on your 3-week cycle?

  7. #3807
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by volosong View Post
    Couldn't find the answer anywhere on-line. What is the correspondence between TT frame sizes and road frame sizes? For example, if my road frame has an eTT of 59cm, what would be the equivalent frame size for a TT bike? Or, is it more complicated than that?
    Having just purchased my first TT bike, I believe that both the TT bike and the road bike of the same size designation, and the same brand, are going to be designed for the same sized person. But, just as in road bikes, a size that fits from one brand won't necessarily fit you from another brand. And the eTT measurements don't really correlate that well, probably because of the HT angles?

    I have a 62cm Trek Madone, and a 61cm Cervelo P2. I feel both fit me pretty well. The Trek is maxed out on saddle height, while the Cervelo has room to go higher. The 62cm Trek has an eTT of 59.8, a reach of 39.8, and I'm using a 140mm stem. The Cervelo has an eTT of 57.4, a reach of 44.7, and I'm using a short stem.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  8. #3808
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    My recovery weeks happen anywhere from unscheduled, life will hand them to me, to 1 recovery week to every 2 training weeks. It depends on how high my long term training stress is and what I'm doing for training. High LTS and high training load requires more frequent breaks.

    A recovery week isn't a full week off the bike. It's a day off and an easy day or two.

  9. #3809
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    My coach has me on 3 weeks training then 1 week recovery. On the current cycle I am doing a lot of really hard short efforts and my body was really hurting earlier this week and I skipped a TT, RR and crit race in MI this weekend that I am regristered for. At the Tue Worlds I dropped out with 6 laps to go due to calf cramping. Next week is recovery week and I can't wait. I am going to race one or two Crits on Sunday in PA.

    Even though I am somewhat beat up the work is paying off. A group of us did cemetery crit intervals on Wed. Riding to the site while warming up I hit a 5" PP record going over a short roller and had 5" PP of 1,170+watts on all three finish sprints.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  10. #3810
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMac View Post
    Racer Ex, if you wouldn't mind, could you expand a bit on your 3-week cycle?
    It's pretty straightforward; rather than a 4 week cycle of progressively harder weeks, it's a 3 week cycle. Week one is slightly less of a recovery week, weeks 2/3 are slightly more aggressive in intensity and duration. It varies of course, but older athletes or racers with more of a crit/sprinter profile bias towards better results with this.

    There's nuance here; what event folks are preparing for plays into this; duration/intensity ratios move around as do the workouts of course (my prep for track Nats is radically different than my prep for Gila) but that's the jist; moving from 25% recovery to 33%.

    Tom, I think it's worth not sugar coating this; what you're doing looks a lot more like a race schedule than a training schedule. Big difference. There are a lot of things I'd change up on that week alone, but the small duration volume causing you to be tired and fried leads me to think there's either an issue on the macro approach or a physiological/physical issue that's causing this type of fatigue. Or you've had some gaps in your preparation; at 56 7-8 hours a week shouldn't leaving you dragging.

  11. #3811
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    VanceMac: What races do you do at the track?
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  12. #3812
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    VanceMac: What races do you do at the track?
    Hermes, pretty new to track... only been going for about year and a half. I've done a couple omniums, and a couple TT. Otherwise, all Roger's Sessions. I tried to get a team together for the Masters coming up, but no dice (since they did 45+ and 55+ instead of 40/50, it worked against me). I will probably do the 2k.

  13. #3813
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    I'm paying attention when it comes to training schedules. AzT piqued my interest, there.

    I took today off. Tomorrow before work I'll go out and hit the hills again for some more intervals. Sunday will be either the same thing or a high paced ride to my work (20 miles each way, with a long grade). What I do Sunday depends on how late I'm held captive at work tomorrow evening. The same holds for Monday. The difference is I'm now determined to train at a higher intensity than I used to. I realize that I need a "down week", from what I have read here. I'm trying to make that coincide with my work schedule. I have to be really flexible and grab what I can, and rest when I have no choice. I hope it works!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  14. #3814
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    VanceMac: I will be at VSP on Thursday at 4PM. I may do the warmup in the 7PM session. I will race LAVRA on Saturday.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  15. #3815
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    tomgdaly, RacerEx knows far more about this than me, but FWIW here's a perspective on your schedule from someone nearer your own class.

    I'm just a year older than you and in my first season racing, also as a Cat4, here in the UK. I haven't gone in for the veterans/masters stuff because, frankly, most of the old guys are faster than the new young guys and some of them are still racing at a very high level. At least I know that most of the Cat4s aren't very good!

    Anyway, I'm surprised that you report being overtired with the regime you describe. I spend about twice as long on the bike as you do - 12 to 15 hours in a typical week - and feel reasonably fresh most of the time. The big difference seems to be that most of my time is spent at a lower intensity, with much less time spent actually racing. I might race one crit in a week, rather than a crit, a TT and a RR, which is what I understand from your programme.

    So, I would typically have one long ride of around five hours, mostly in zone 2 but pushing it a bit in the hills to build in some intensity. I'll do one session of a couple of hours at tempo and one interval session of an hour or so. On the intervening days I'll be on the bike for a couple of hours each day in Z1 and Z2, pretty much recovery pace. if I have a race on Saturday I'll make Thursday a recovery ride and take Friday off.

    That's roughly the usual routine, anyway. I'm not as scientific as I might be with regard to easy weeks, I tend to just ease up if I start feeling jaded. Reading what you say leads me to wonder whether your base is as well-established as you think it is? Maybe you need more long steady distance stuff before doing three really intense efforts per week?
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  16. #3816
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I am a bike b!cth tomorrow supporting MEA in her ITT state championships at Sattley, CA at 5000 feet. She is doing 20K. So today is a leg opener and drive to Truckee, CA.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  17. #3817
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    One hour training this morning. "Unstructured" hill reps (I let the rollers do the spacing), some high efforts on the flats. It's hard to get everything moving right after waking up, plus it was 48 degrees (no part of my body likes that). Also, more often than not I am not able to put forth really hard efforts after a day off. It takes me a day or two of training to get moving again.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  18. #3818
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    For you ladies, here is a woman weighing 123 pounds doing a Getup with 28 kg.

    Wow. I hate her. You left out the "young" part, Hermes! Actually, that was really impressive. I'd hate to hold something that heavy over my head like that. The consequences of my arm giving out are not terribly inviting!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  19. #3819
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm not sure a fast group ride where I set 3 PR's is the best prep for tomorrow's 40K TT, but I was told to "ride hard", and so I did. I think the idea is to see how deep I can go into the 'race of truth' pain cave tomorrow, by starting the race already at the entrance.

    I have my power strategy set, picked out a helmet today, and also got one of the under the jersey Camelbak's to freeze and use for both cooling and hydration.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I'm not sure a fast group ride where I set 3 PR's is the best prep for tomorrow's 40K TT, but I was told to "ride hard", and so I did. I think the idea is to see how deep I can go into the 'race of truth' pain cave tomorrow, by starting the race already at the entrance.
    You're not much for recovery, AZT, are you?

    I'm sitting here thinking about following your example. I got home today at the end of my tour. I've ridden 400 miles this week on a loaded tourer. Obviously I should rest up and race next weekend, as was my plan. But there's a Cat4 crit tomorrow, and with a couple of glasses of wine inside me I'm feeling pretty strong...
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  21. #3821
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    But there's a Cat4 crit tomorrow, and with a couple of glasses of wine inside me I'm feeling pretty strong...
    Now you're talking!

    Congrat's on the great tour. Sounds like it was absolutely awesome.

    And tonight is supposed to be date night, and we always share a bottle of wine, with me getting the bigger half, so I may be doing that TT a bit hungover.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #3822
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Now you're talking!

    Congrat's on the great tour. Sounds like it was absolutely awesome.

    And tonight is supposed to be date night, and we always share a bottle of wine, with me getting the bigger half, so I may be doing that TT a bit hungover.
    The tour was awesome. Great visits with friends, fabulous weather for ten days and positively biblical downpours at the end. Plus, my usual astonishment at the fact that having lived in a small country all my life, there is still so much of it that is both attractive and, to me, undiscovered.

    As for you, I think you should take the advice your wife gave about your training a few weeks ago. May as well go the whole hog...
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  23. #3823
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I'm not sure a fast group ride where I set 3 PR's is the best prep for tomorrow's 40K TT, but I was told to "ride hard", and so I did. I think the idea is to see how deep I can go into the 'race of truth' pain cave tomorrow, by starting the race already at the entrance.

    I have my power strategy set, picked out a helmet today, and also got one of the under the jersey Camelbak's to freeze and use for both cooling and hydration.
    PR's mean you are strong and rested. Good luck tomorrow at the TT.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  24. #3824
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Now you're talking!

    Congrat's on the great tour. Sounds like it was absolutely awesome.

    And tonight is supposed to be date night, and we always share a bottle of wine, with me getting the bigger half, so I may be doing that TT a bit hungover.
    Sean Kelly wouldn't have sex a month before the tour.

  25. #3825
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Sean Kelly wouldn't have sex a month before the tour.
    Yeah, well, I can't descend like Sean, either. Or sprint, or TT...

    On the subject of preparation, I was interested in this article about Wiggins. His new coach has a swimming background, and has him racing less, and training more consistently through the year. Seems to be working so far...

    And with reference to recovery food/drink, for a while now my preferred post-ride meal has been a glass of milk and a sardine sandwich. I thought the sardine sandwich was an eccentricity all my own, but recently discovered that Graeme Obree used to do likewise. Maybe I should buy that TT bike.
    Last edited by chasm54; 06-09-12 at 10:23 PM.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

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