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  1. #3826
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Not only didn't I ride, I also had...




    ...my hair done.

    So now I look like I should be racing 50-54, not the next group.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

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  2. #3827
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I am a bike b!cth tomorrow supporting MEA in her ITT state championships at Sattley, CA at 5000 feet. She is doing 20K. So today is a leg opener and drive to Truckee, CA.
    Please pass my "go fast and crush it, ME!" wishes to MEA.

    Next year for me.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

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  3. #3828
    The Crank
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    Reading what you say leads me to wonder whether your base is as well-established as you think it is? Maybe you need more long steady distance stuff before doing three really intense efforts per week?
    I've been coming to the same conclusion. Looking back, after the World Masters Track champs in Manchester in October I took two weeks off and then averaged about five hours a week on the road until March when racing started. However, that didn't include interval session on the indoor trainer - about two per week average - which i think I started too soon. The road sessions also included interval sessions. How do you find Cat 4 racing with your regime which has a high proportion of low intensity riding?

  4. #3829
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomgdaly View Post
    I've been coming to the same conclusion. Looking back, after the World Masters Track champs in Manchester in October I took two weeks off and then averaged about five hours a week on the road until March when racing started. However, that didn't include interval session on the indoor trainer - about two per week average - which i think I started too soon. The road sessions also included interval sessions. How do you find Cat 4 racing with your regime which has a high proportion of low intensity riding?
    I am coming to terms with it. I was taken by surprise at first by how everyone went hell-for-leather right from the off, and discovered that I need to warm up pretty hard before the start, because I won't get a chance to ease myself into it during the race. But I can hang with the pace, mostly. I do need to do more speed work (and lose the last few kilos excess weight) because when the heat comes on for the primes or to cover a break I get gapped. I'm getting there, though I don't expect to be winning anything for a while.

    In my admittedly fairly ignorant opinion, five hours a week from October to March doesn't sound like enough base miles. It wouldn't be for me, anyway.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  5. #3830
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    I am coming to terms with it. I was taken by surprise at first by how everyone went hell-for-leather right from the off, and discovered that I need to warm up pretty hard before the start, because I won't get a chance to ease myself into it during the race. But I can hang with the pace, mostly. I do need to do more speed work (and lose the last few kilos excess weight) because when the heat comes on for the primes or to cover a break I get gapped. I'm getting there, though I don't expect to be winning anything for a while.

    In my admittedly fairly ignorant opinion, five hours a week from October to March doesn't sound like enough base miles. It wouldn't be for me, anyway.
    What speeds are Cat 4 averaging over there and what distances are the road races?

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    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomgdaly View Post
    What speeds are Cat 4 averaging over there and what distances are the road races?
    I can't speak for all of them. The fastest crit I have been in so far was won at 26.2 mph, which did raise a few eyebrows, it was faster than the cat 3 race on the same card. Very flat course, though, with only one slight gradient. There is no consistency about road race distances, the shortest I've seen has been 25 miles and of course they go much longer than that. There aren't that many road races just for Cat4s, of course.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  7. #3832
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rider View Post
    Not only didn't I ride, I also had...




    ...my hair done.

    So now I look like I should be racing 50-54, not the next group.
    I coulda told you that!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  8. #3833
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I think that, had TT's been more popular in the 60's, there would have been fewer folks taking LSD. The 40K race really messes with your mind. One minute you think you are going great, and the next you are imagining how wonderful it would be to get a flat... or if you could get away with faking a flat. My mind was so far 'somewhere else' that when I saw the guy at the side of the road, and a cone in the middle, I was still thinking "Oh, must be getting close" when I blew past the turnaround. If he hadn't started waving his finger in a circle, I'd probably still be riding.

    Anyway, I learned a lot. It's an event where you have to have everything just so before you start turning the pedals. Once you start, there is nothing extraneous you can do that doesn't cost you.

    I finished 2nd, in 1:02:40... but there were only three of us. :-)

    Winner crushed us, doing 59 something. Third was I think around 1:04. Had I raced Cat4, I would have been about a third of the way down the much longer list. There weren't that many under the hour mark, and the best time was 57 and change.

    I was well under my power targets, even though my HR and PE said I was in the target range. That threw me off, and I even pedaled backwards to zero the Quarq once, as I just didn't believe the power numbers. But when I calibrated after I finished, I got a reading really close to my pre-warmup calibration, so... not sure. Could be just yesterday's hard work and the difference of being on the TT bike.

    Had a good time, and the team was well represented so got to hang with them a bit. Looking forward to my next 40K. Gotta get under 60 minutes!
    Last edited by AzTallRider; 06-10-12 at 03:28 PM.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #3834
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Strong work, AzT!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  10. #3835
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    20 minute test tomorrow. The harbinger of truth.

    Good job, AZT.

  11. #3836
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    I thought the sardine sandwich was an eccentricity all my own, but recently discovered that Graeme Obree used to do likewise. Maybe I should buy that TT bike.
    Sardines are good. Many omega 3's.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomgdaly View Post
    I've been coming to the same conclusion. Looking back, after the World Masters Track champs in Manchester in October I took two weeks off and then averaged about five hours a week on the road until March when racing started. However, that didn't include interval session on the indoor trainer - about two per week average - which i think I started too soon. The road sessions also included interval sessions.
    In a nutshell from my perspective:

    1) You don't have an established base
    2) Racing is not training
    3) Way too much top end and zero middle.
    4) 5 hours is barely enough if you're doing it right. You're not doing it right.

    You don't need a PM. An HRM at this point is ground zero. Race once or twice a week. Otherwise ride high zone 2 and low zone 3 on every training ride if you're not resting. Rest when you're tired. Put together a log. Tell your current coach "thanks, but I think I want to go in a new direction".

    Go buy a cheap HRM and Joel Friel's Training Bible. Read it, cover to cover. Then read it again. Follow the above until you've done that, then come back and pepper us with questions.

    Also understand that comparing speeds and placings in/of various races is like comparing trees to determine which is more tree-like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rider View Post
    Not only didn't I ride, I also had......my hair done.
    I waxed my head. Now I look like a guy with a shiny head.

    Raced today. Report here. Stout fields. We are tired.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 06-10-12 at 07:51 PM.

  12. #3837
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Good job on your first TT AZTR. I bet you will see a significant amount of time drop in the next few TT's.

    I raced a 40+\50+ crit today. On the last lap I attacked with 1/2 mile to go thinking a team mate was on my wheel. One guy was off the front and I grabbed his wheel hoping he might pull me through the final two turns. He blew up in the middle of the turns and we got swarmed. On my second sprint I did pass a few ending up 9th overall and 5th in my race. Got some more $ for the racing retirement pizza party fund. Next week is a 55+ crit and I'm racing for the win.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  13. #3838
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Nice racing A'Jet, Aztr and R'Ex. I just returned home after some serious bike b!tching and driving 4 hours form Truckee, CA. When we got up this AM at 6AM it was 34 degrees at 6000 feet. When we got home it was 88 degrees and traveling through RR's hood in Vacaville, it was 91. Just a gorgeous day in the Sierras.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #3839
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I think that, had TT's been more popular in the 60's, there would have been fewer folks taking LSD. The 40K race really messes with your mind. One minute you think you are going great, and the next you are imagining how wonderful it would be to get a flat... or if you could get away with faking a flat. My mind was so far 'somewhere else' that when I saw the guy at the side of the road, and a cone in the middle, I was still thinking "Oh, must be getting close" when I blew past the turnaround. If he hadn't started waving his finger in a circle, I'd probably still be riding.

    Anyway, I learned a lot. It's an event where you have to have everything just so before you start turning the pedals. Once you start, there is nothing extraneous you can do that doesn't cost you.

    I finished 2nd, in 1:02:40... but there were only three of us. :-)

    Winner crushed us, doing 59 something. Third was I think around 1:04. Had I raced Cat4, I would have been about a third of the way down the much longer list. There weren't that many under the hour mark, and the best time was 57 and change.

    I was well under my power targets, even though my HR and PE said I was in the target range. That threw me off, and I even pedaled backwards to zero the Quarq once, as I just didn't believe the power numbers. But when I calibrated after I finished, I got a reading really close to my pre-warmup calibration, so... not sure. Could be just yesterday's hard work and the difference of being on the TT bike.

    Had a good time, and the team was well represented so got to hang with them a bit. Looking forward to my next 40K. Gotta get under 60 minutes!
    I exercise many of the same mental gymnastics...yet the 40K is my best event. I train with negative splits, since I'm no longer a sprinter. I can manage a 30K TT just fine...10 miles feels like a sprint. Very grateful to the folks who host the Putah Creek Smackdown, as they hold both 10 mi. & 40K TT practices. I'm taking them my best oatmeal-chocolate chip cookies on Wed. as a show of appreciation. (Past items of appreciation include homemade jams, homemade bread, 6-packs of beer, and bread+jam combos. Whatever it takes to get Cody to give me a push vs. just letting go the saddle.)

    To succeed at TTs you must turn yourself inside out, ignore what your body tells you, and push even harder even if your legs are crying. You must forget all your crit & RR rules and keep burying yourself. If you don't wobble getting off the bike at the end of a TT, you've done it wrong.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

    Visit my blog.

  15. #3840
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Nice racing A'Jet, Aztr and R'Ex. I just returned home after some serious bike b!tching and driving 4 hours form Truckee, CA. When we got up this AM at 6AM it was 34 degrees at 6000 feet. When we got home it was 88 degrees and traveling through RR's hood in Vacaville, it was 91. Just a gorgeous day in the Sierras.
    Yes, it was hot and crazy-windy these last 2 days. I had no desire to channel my inner Mary Poppins and found other ways to work on my fitness.

    Props to MEA for crushing the field and being w/in 7 sec. of the record!

    I'm going to wander off and feel bad about myself for a while...
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

    Visit my blog.

  16. #3841
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    AZT, that's pretty good, I think. TTs have always been popular here and I've always been taught that <60minutes for the 25m/40k is pretty much the gold standard. Plenty of strong riders never get there, but it looks as if you certainly will. I'll bet there aren't many people who celebrate their 60th birthday by riding a sub 60-minute 40k, why don't we plan on doing that? It would keep me up to scratch during the next couple of years, anyway.

    RacerEx, I read your report. Nice to read that it isn't only novices like me who find themselves not riding to plan...

    A-Jet, it sounds as if you're feeling really strong. Good luck next week.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  17. #3842
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    RacerEx, I read your report. Nice to read that it isn't only novices like me who find themselves not riding to plan...
    On the plus side I avoided the crash in our race. And I made some money.

    I can barely write the words s** i* let alone do so during a race. I'm reasonably certain I was a sled dog in another life.

  18. #3843
    The Crank
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    In a nutshell from my perspective:

    1) You don't have an established base
    2) Racing is not training
    3) Way too much top end and zero middle.
    4) 5 hours is barely enough if you're doing it right. You're not doing it right.

    You don't need a PM. An HRM at this point is ground zero. Race once or twice a week. Otherwise ride high zone 2 and low zone 3 on every training ride if you're not resting. Rest when you're tired. Put together a log. Tell your current coach "thanks, but I think I want to go in a new direction".

    Go buy a cheap HRM and Joel Friel's Training Bible. Read it, cover to cover. Then read it again. Follow the above until you've done that, then come back and pepper us with questions.
    Thanks for that. Yes, I have the HR monitor, and the various books etc. In fact I read quite a lot. Maybe I'm a slow learned. I'm happy that I'm doing everything 'right'! But it looks like I'm just not getting the proportions of different types of training 'right', nor getting their timing 'right'!
    I'll have to think about it .....

  19. #3844
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    My race report is on the same page as RacerEx's, up a few posts.

  20. #3845
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomgdaly View Post
    Thanks for that. Yes, I have the HR monitor, and the various books etc. In fact I read quite a lot. Maybe I'm a slow learned. I'm happy that I'm doing everything 'right'! But it looks like I'm just not getting the proportions of different types of training 'right', nor getting their timing 'right'!
    I'll have to think about it .....
    Right now given what you described and where you are on the totem pole I'd suggest following the Racer Ex program above (shoot for 8-10 hours a week with 60% of it the Z2/3 training I described) and not try to design around a full periodization plan till you have a particular race or time period you want to be really flying for.

    Understand that these are more for potentiated athletes (one's that have already climbed a bit up the ladder) and also most of the periodized plans are designed around 22 year olds.

    I'd also invest in a foam roller and develop a post exercise stretching routine. Other than getting the nutrition right I found they are the best thing to help recovery.

    And listen to your body. Without a power meter it's the only thing that's capable of telling you when you're wasting your time trying to complete a workout. There's is little to no benefit digging a hole by training when you're wiped out.

  21. #3846
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    I'll bet there aren't many people who celebrate their 60th birthday by riding a sub 60-minute 40k, why don't we plan on doing that? It would keep me up to scratch during the next couple of years, anyway.
    Great plan, Chasm. I'm in!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #3847
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Great plan, Chasm. I'm in!
    OK. Looks like I'll be getting that TT bike, then.

    Shovel​, I read your report. He was playing with you.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  23. #3848
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Shovelhd, I vote maybe playing with you. IMO, racers have trouble knowing their limits and capability. He may have played it too conservative and ended up with more at the end. Congrats on your continued success.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  24. #3849
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Great plan, Chasm. I'm in!
    I guess I need to get the Felt B2 dusted off....
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  25. #3850
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    I rode home from work last night, and then back again this morning. Last night's ride felt very good, in fact I seemed to hit all of my targets - maintaining a high cadence, decent speeds on the climbs, and maintaining an even level of effort (my latest mantra). This morning was a little less stellar, at least it felt like it. Sore plexors and IT bands and legs that just wouldn't clear! However, Strava seems to tell a different story. Both rides looked very similar. My "point to self" is that "incremental" word again - what feels like a world dominating performance is actually considerably less than that. "Small steps, Ellie". I get it, believe me.

    RR, your description of digging for TT races was really spot on. Now, what's this about sulking?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

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