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  1. #376
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    4th again last night, out of 12-15. Windy. HR near max the whole time.

    Crit's are never likely to be my strong point, but I have to say I really love the constantly shifting strategy, the jockeying tactics in the pack, etc. I learn more each time out, like how to (safely) protect your position and keep someone from stealing your wheel. Fun stuff.
    Good result and it appears you are learning a lot. Keep up the great results. We did our own crit practice in a local cemetery last night. As part of my workout I was to do a 1.25 Z3 interval with a 10 second OTS sprint every 3 minutes.

    A few of us rode around the .8 mile long 6 turn crit route in a cemetery. We would launch the 10 second sprints when the timer sounded by dropping 2 gears then hammering for the sprint regardless if there was a turn or not. Sometimes I would get in 10 revolutions, then ride the turn, then complete the last 1o revs coming out of the turn, sometimes we would be on a long straight. Great crit practice via riding in a tight group through turns, the 25 anaerobic Z7 intervals and constant riding @ Z3.
    Last edited by Allegheny Jet; 04-06-11 at 01:08 PM.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  2. #377
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    A few of us rode around the .8 mile long 6 turn crit route in a cemetery. We would launch the 10 second sprints when the timer sounded by dropping 2 gears then hammering for the sprint regardless if there was a turn or not. Sometimes I would get in 10 revolutions, then ride the turn, then complete the last 1 rev coming out of the turn, sometimes we would be on a long straight. Great crit practice via riding in a tight group through turns, the 25 anaerobic Z7 intervals and constant riding @ Z3.
    Sounds like a great workout... but where is the Xtranormal invite, huh?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  3. #378
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Sounds like a great workout... but where is the Xtranormal invite, huh?
    Something like this from last year?

    http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6332...-invite?page=2
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  4. #379
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, 4th out of 10+ in a bike race sounds solid to me. Congrats.

    Generally, I do about 50 TTS per hour +/-. I think A'jet's total time included gym workouts as well as cycling.

    A'jet, I like the regimented sprint every so often. It trains the brain to know you can do it no matter how you feel or where you are.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #380
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Something like this from last year?

    http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6332...-invite?page=2
    Ahh.. yes. How could I forget. Love that one.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #381
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Your average daily training stress?
    I looked up some of my recorded rides. The training stress scores vary. On 3/8 I did a 2.5 hr group ride with my buddies whom I pulled around that had a tsc of 541, intensity of 1.57. (a very hard effort on my part with some time spent in recovery mode) On 3/12 I did 9 x 2 min Z5+ hill intervals with a tsc of 387.2, intensity of 1.27. On 4/5 I did a Z3 interval with the OTS burst with a tsc of 127.5 and intensity of .766. On 3/15 I did a 3 hr ride of Z2/3 with a tsc of 200.5 and intensity of .973. On 2.15 I did an easy 45 minute recovery ride with a tsc of 52 and an intensity of .825. I really have no idea what it all means and am not even sure if I answered your question.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  7. #382
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    LOL... lots of numbers there.

    Power data junkies make a religion out of planning, tracking, and managing their Chronic Training Load (CTL), which is the average daily TSS/TSC. Both TrainingPeaks.com and WKO+ track those for you, along with the Intensity Factor of the workouts. The software lets you define the period to use for your CTL and also your Acute Training Load (ATL). Default is 42 days for CTL, and 7 days for ATL. The software also gives you your Training Stress Balance (TSB), which you want to be relatively high (above zero) as you get to race day. Typical CTL loads of the folks in the faster cat's appear to be in the 80's. My newbie-wuss CTL, generally for 10-12 hours per week of riding, is in the mid-sixties. During base and build periods, the numbers go up, and they come down during pre-race tapers, because volume goes down. To maximize improvement, you want to build up your CTL as fast as you can, to as high as you can, without overtraining or having divorce papers served on you.

    When last I whined to Coach about my puny CTL, she replied: "CTL will come, grasshopper." She aggressively protects me from overtraining, and clearly has a better sense than I do about how stressed I'm going to be at any given point in time. She has pretty much given me exactly what I can handle.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  8. #383
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Saturday is the Tour of the Tucson Mountains... flatter race I'm really looking forward to. Need to do the 73 miles in 2:55 (25 mph) to get the elusive Platinum. I have the sections broken down, and will drive the course Friday when I get down to Tucson. Basic strategy is sit in as close behind the leaders as possible and not get dropped. I think the key will be a 10 mile section with an average grade of .4%, with a max of 5%. If I can stay with the group through that (starts 26 miles in), I'll be golden.. I mean platinum.

    After that race, I'm going to get serious about making a decision on a new racing bike. I should be able to shed 8+ pounds and increase lateral stiffness at the same time - not to mention quickening up the handling. Final candidates at this point are the Tarmac (S-Works SL3), Madone (6.x), and Cervelo (R3).
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #384
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, 73 miles @ 25 mph for 2:55 is a tough standard. Dude *he bows*. I suspect 25 mph for you will be around 300 watts +/- exposed to the wind. Even in the peloton it is going to be tough and much will have to do with terrain and wind direction.

    I suggest thinking about a skin suit and even covering up some of the holes in your helmet with tape. If you do not have light aero wheels try to borrow some. I think you have to be very aero and slippery. Quite frankly every watt will count. I can visualize the lead guys weighing 150 pounds on 15 pound bikes killing it at 400 watts for sustained efforts on the climb. This is going to be glorious and a real slug fest.

    Good luck and we hope you make platium.
    Last edited by Hermes; 04-13-11 at 06:02 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #385
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    AZT, 73 miles @ 25 mph for 2:55 is a tough standard. Dude *he bows*. I suspect 25 mph for you will be around 300 watts +/- exposed to the wind.
    Exposed to the wind?!?! You confusing me with a trackie?!?

    I suggest thinking about a skin suit and even covering up some of the holes in your helmet with tape.
    In 90+ degrees? Can't I just pedal harder? ;-) Temp will start in the mid-sixties, climbing during the race, but will actualy probably only get to about 80 before I finish.

    If you do not have light aero wheels try to borrow some. I think you have to be very aero and slippery. Quite frankly every watt will count. I can visualize the lead guys weighing 150 pounds on 15 pound bikes killing it at 400 watts for sustained efforts on the climb. This is going to be glorious and a real slug fest.
    My wheels are pretty light, and not too deep, but a decent aero shape. Clinchers, and spokes are unbladed though. My only chance is to be part of (meaning hide in) a group that averages 25+. On the last ride, the average was just barely below that on the climb that was most similar to the critical climb on this course, and I held that. The second half of this one should be ~28, and I'm hoping it's ~30. On similar sections last race, I held the group (~28) without burning matches. This race -used- to be the one where it was easiest to make platinum. They reduced the time limit though: maybe it still is - maybe not so much. We'll see. It's certainly going to be a blast... Yippee Ki Yay.

    Thanks for the tips and good wishes.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  11. #386
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, Absolutely.... just pedal harder. What was I thinking.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  12. #387
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    I did not think I was going to be able to make this race, but now it appears the I may. Here is a link to the race website:
    http://spartabikefest.com/sparta-bike-fest/

    And here is a link to the course map:
    http://veloroutes.org/bikemaps/?route=47328
    I am still not sure I can make the race, but I would appreciate any advice on race tactics just in case. My basic main plan is to stay out of the wind until the big climb and to put everything into the climb.

    I have enough races to move up to cat 4 and will probably upgrade after this race, but the cat 5, 35+ race seems like a good option right now. Eventually I would like to race Masters 50+, but not yet.

  13. #388
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Analyzing that route and developing a plan will be easier using the ridewithgps.com version of the route. It lets you select sections (click and drag on the elevation chart), and gives you avg and max grades for what you have selected. Just click again on the chart, without dragging, and it will get you back to the whole route. And just mousing over the elevation chart shows you that spot on the map.

    http://ridewithgps.com/routes/48187

    It shows that climb as 3.5 miles, at an avg of 3.6%, and a max of 15%. Sometimes the max is inflated do to the underlying data. Helluva climb! 16 rolling miles leading up to it.

    I'm the newbie here, but I know my coach would say to find wheels at the top so you can stay protected coming back down, even if you have to slow for a minute to let a group catch you. Chances are they will catch you anyway if you are alone, and you'll stay strong if you just slow a bit to catch the group. In other words, don't forget to look behind you and adapt to what is happening there.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Analyzing that route and developing a plan will be easier using the ridewithgps.com version of the route.
    ...
    I'm the newbie here, but I know my coach would say to find wheels at the top so you can stay protected coming back down, even if you have to slow for a minute to let a group catch you. Chances are they will catch you anyway if you are alone, and you'll stay strong if you just slow a bit to catch the group. In other words, don't forget to look behind you and adapt to what is happening there.
    AZT: Thanks for the link to the ridewithgps map--that is really great! Hopefully I will not be the last one up the climb so there will be a group to join.

  15. #390
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Ahab, Considering how well you did at the last race, I doubt you will have a problem. One idea on the climb is not to get behind a slow guy which is easier said than done. Bigger riders are very seductive to draft behind especially if they are a good wheel. However, the climb looks like it will have some short very high power bumps. What happens is the slower rider cannot match the acceleration on the bump. He gets gapped and you have to come around on a climb AND close a gap OR rely upon him closing the gap.

    My experience is on long undulating climbs is that it is going to be very tough and the 35+ guys monsters. If you get gapped, try to assess resources i.e. who is behind you that you may be able to work with. Good luck.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I am in SoCal racing LAVRA at LA Velodrome tomorrow morning. Last night my wife and I attended a training session at LAV which features a pyramid progression of efforts with a group of approximately 25 minutes. After an 8 minute rest, we did another 25 minutes. We both used 88 gear inches. The easiest efforts were at approximately 85 cadence or approximately 21.4 mph. I rode in the pole lane and practiced riding the black line.

    Since we are racing tomorrow, we passed on the motor games that follow the structured pyramids. Cleave, was at the session and it was great to see him as always. And as usual, there was some female volleyball going on in the center.

    Here are a couple of pics after the session was over near our locker on the top of the bleachers.



    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  17. #392
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    You two are looking good!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  18. #393
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I am in SoCal racing LAVRA at LA Velodrome tomorrow morning. Last night my wife and I attended a training session at LAV which features a pyramid progression of efforts with a group of approximately 25 minutes. After an 8 minute rest, we did another 25 minutes. We both used 88 gear inches. The easiest efforts were at approximately 85 cadence or approximately 21.4 mph. I rode in the pole lane and practiced riding the black line.

    Since we are racing tomorrow, we passed on the motor games that follow the structured pyramids. Cleave, was at the session and it was great to see him as always. And as usual, there was some female volleyball going on in the center.
    Hi Hermes,

    It is always great to see you and Ms. Diva. Both of you are looking pretty fit. That workout hurt a lot (in a good way) mostly because people just wanted to sit on my and my teammates wheel instead of leading a rep. However, it was probably for the better as far as my training is concerned.

    Hey AzT,

    Good luck with your race. It's great to have goals but remember this is your first season so most importantly get some good miles into your legs and be safe. Oh and have fun too.

    I'll be doing a 12 mile TT which has 4 miles of climbing right from the start. I raced this course in early March and I had a very bad day and was DFL. Now I need to set a course PR to make up for that.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  19. #394
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Tour of the Tucson Mountains Race Report

    I lined up early, as usual, in the first row of 'Gold', shivering a bit in the cold for a couple of hours. I had carefully evaluated how hot it would get, and ignored the cold morning. I went with the same nutrition and hydration solution as last race. Sustained Energy in a hydration pack, gel flask in a pocket, and electrolyte water in 2 bottles. I paid attention to a group of both Plat and Gold riders from Trisports (Tucson) that was organizing themselves. 10 minutes before the start, after the National Anthem, we were allowed to filter in to the back of the platinum area.

    At the start, everyone took off surprisingly fast, sprinting for position in the peloton. Things settled down after the first couple turns, and I worked up close to the front to avoid the surges one guy was calling "yo-yo land". I also wanted to be up front when we hit any climbs. I had driven the course the day before, and knew I absolutely had to stay with the pack through the early, shorter climbs, including a 1 miler, the second toughest climb of the (very flat) race. I also kept a watch out for the Trisports team, figuring that hanging with them might be a good idea and something I could manage.

    I passed the early tests with flying colors, staying towards the front of the pack, and aggressively closing any threatening gaps. In fact, I didn't realize it at the time, but the 1 mile climb had split the pack, and I had stayed in the front half. Before I knew it, we were turning onto the big 2 mile climb, and I was in great position. I knew that climb 'was the race', and I gave it everything I had. Of course, everyone else knew it to, and it turns out the pack went up the hill about 1 mph more than I could manage. When I went OTB, I looked back, and there was nobody there. I mean absolutely nobody! I caught someone who asked "wait for some people, or push it?" I said I wanted to get up that hill as fast as I could, and go from there. I didn't want to risk getting dropped, still on the hill, by the second group. Turns out that wasn't a valid concern. We picked up another guy who was very strong once we crested the steepest part, and I ended up losing those two. Talking to the first guy after the race, he said he told the strong guy (63 years old, by the way) it was all he could do to hang onto his wheel, so go ahead and leave him. The guy said it was fine to just hang with him and not pull. Lesson learned to talk! If I hadn't done my share of pulling, I think I could have hung with them. But it turned out not to matter. Despite going solo, it was 18 miles before the second group caught me.

    I held the second group, which included the Trisports team, just fine, staying near the front, and bridging to a breakaway as we started getting close to the finish. We picked up the two who had lost me only a couple miles or so from the end. I still have no idea how/why group 2 got so far back that it took them 18 miles to catch me. There were strong riders in the group, and given the nature of the course leading up to that climb, I would have expected that only a small gap could have been created. Maybe they were held up at a stoplight. I was, very briefly, but it turned out not to matter. Someone on the side was apologizing profusely about that when it happened.

    I finished strong, with a few others, off the front of the splintered 2nd group, in 3:02:56, ~8 minutes out of platinum. Only the front group made the 2:55 cutoff - 67 people. I finished 88th out of 600+, in a group that had a lot of platinum riders, at 23.2 mph.

    I feel great about the result, because I pushed hard, made no tactical errors I am aware of, and finished in good company. The only time I lagged was for awhile when I was solo. I realized my speed and HR had really dropped, and my back and feet were hurting. I picked the pace back up, telling myself to HTFU. Not long after that the group caught up, and I miraculously felt much better while pushing much harder. Amazing how that works.

    Bottom line: it was, as I expected, all about that one climb. With group 2 so far back, when I was dropped on the hill, my chance for platinum was dropped as well.

    I really love cranking along in a fast tight pack, and having some rollers was big bonus, since I never see those in Phoenix. Really fun ride!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  20. #395
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I arrived at Home Depot Center LA Velodrome signed up for the 2K pursuit. I met a friend who asked me if I wanted to ride the Masters 60+ 3K team pursuit with him and two others. Team pursuit is my specialty and a lot of fun on the 250 meter track. I knew two of the racers and met the third.

    For throwing together an ad hoc team, we did really well. Our time was 4:05:18. I rode in 90 gear inches and my average cadence was 109 with a max of 120 rpm.

    Roger Young, who runs LAV, is a coach, former Olympian and coached 3 USA Olympic track teams, was coaching us as well. It was great to have him.

    Here are a couple of pics

    An iPhone shot by my wife with me leading.



    Post race debriefing.

    Last edited by Hermes; 04-17-11 at 11:04 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  21. #396
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Do you do rotate each lap?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Do you do rotate each lap?
    Yes. You ride up the bank and dive back down to time getting on the last racers wheel.

    BTW, what do you get if you make "Platinum"?
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #398
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    BTW, what do you get if you make "Platinum"?
    A. Bragging rights: it means you run with the big dogs.
    B. Access to the front starting section for events run by Perimeter Bicycling Association of America

    B means you get to sleep in a bit and still start near the front. For an event like El Tour de Tucson, with 5-7 thousand riders on the long route, it means not spending 3 hours in the cold trying to start close enough to the front to be in the pack. They cordon off the front section of the starting chute, and only those with Platinum passes can start there.

    It's a goal for many Arizona riders. I set it as a very aggressive first season goal, knowing it would push me to improve rapidly. Last shot this year is El Tour de Tucson, in the fall: 109 miles in 5 hours, with a couple of cyclocross style river wash crossings thrown in to make it interesting...
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  24. #399
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm still such a newb... I knew I had weight issues with my mammoth steel Gunnar, but I didn't think I had serious flex issues. Turns out that's just because I have so little experience with other bikes. I had started to get the feeling I had some flex in the front end. There was some wet gravel on my rims awhile back after some rain, and when I accelerated from a really slow turn, I noticed sound from the gravel on the brake pad, which went away as I straightened out. I was able to repeat it. Filed it away in the back of my brain as probably an indication of flex. Not having anything to compare it to, it just stayed there, filed away. But seeing the lengths the manufactureres are going to in order to gain stiffness (e.g., asymmetrical headsets), and looking at my 29cm HT, I started to realize I pretty much -had- to have flex issues. How could that thing be stiff? So I paid close attention to flex when I had the chance yesterday to ride a 64cm Madone 5.2. Couldn't believe the shop had one on the rack, and at a shop that carries Trek, Specialized AND Cervelo. I spent a long time talking to the guy who had been referred to me by Coach, with my bike there to compare measurements and such. It became clear that, of the three I was considering, the Madone was the best fit.

    So I rode it, and pounded the pedals as hard as I could after racing that morning. The only thing I could feel or see flexing was the front tire. It seemed like the stress on the front end went to the ground, compressing the tire, something that never happens on the Gunnar. I also went over whatever rough stuff I found, and the bike wasn't any rougher than my steel frame. Then there is the lighter weight. :-)

    Anyway, it sure pointed out how much I'm giving away in flex riding the Gunnar. The guy feels the Tarmac is the champ at power transfer, but the geo looks problematic for me. If I were pulling the trigger today, it would be for a Madone 6.2 (frame made in the US of their one from the top CF - Ultegra gruppo - Bontrager race xXx light CF wheels). I'm guessing it would come in at about 17 pounds - maybe a touch less. But I need to cool down from fondling something so sexy, and make sure my brain is engaged.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  25. #400
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, When I got back into cycling in June 2006, all my previous equipment seemed out of date. And I was not so sure about CF as a frame material vis a vis strength. I went to a Trek store and decided on a Madone 5.2 Ultegra with a triple considering our hills and liked the idea that it was made in the USA. I went for a test ride with a 12/25 cassette and went up a fairly steep hill. I came back to the shop and said, "put on the 12/27". I debated getting the 5.5 v 5.2 and decided to save the money and went with the 5.2. I regretted that decision and used my self ass kicking machine often. It is not that the 5.2 is not fabulous because it is. It is because when I get into something, I go all out. And the bike did not match my go all out personality which can be my greatest strength and weakness. Later, I purchased Race XXX lite wheels. These have proven to be bomb proof and I used them (on my Cervelo) in the Madera stage race on the Paris Roubaix style road race. They were perfect albeit give a stiffer ride. The wheels are stiff which is typical for carbon. However, they are expensive for an okay weight non aero box wheel. I think there are better choices for a climbing / race wheel. Although, the Race XXX have proven themselves to hold up to hard riding. I would not purchase them again but YMMV.

    If I were going to buy a Madone today, I would go for the 6.XX with full D/A, but with Race X lite wheels. I would make sure the Quarq fits. I would keep the cranks incase I need to send the PM back for repair and have a complete bike to sell on Ebay less the PM when I get a new one.

    I am not so sure about your bike flex analysis. I am very sure your bike flexes what is not clear is whether there is any power loss. There are many discussions on this matter and the best ones are on Google Wattage. The argument is that the frame returns the energy back to the cranks when it recoils.

    Big sprinters hate flexible frames because it feels weird to them and on the first pedal stroke, they really flex the frame and MAY give up some forward thrust to a sprinter who has a very stiff frame. So the better racers and sprinters prefer very stiff equipment and the manufacturers give it to them and promote it.

    I do not think your current frame is absorbing energy. I think your current bike is heavy and is hurting you in long races with climbs.

    I liked my Madone and would consider one again.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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