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  1. #401
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, Congrats on a great result. It seems like you raced very smart. I completely agree with your assessment of worrying about the second group catching and dropping. You were at your limit with the lead group. Once you went OTB, you were very vulnerable. On the next pro race on TV, watch what happens to breakaway riders that are absorbed by the pack. Many times they go OTB of the peloton. The problem is that the second group is within their means and getting ready to increase power later in the race. So it was great that you could hand with them and lead out at the end.

    You talk about HR but how was your power? I do not care about absolute numbers but did you ride at z4 or z3 and etc. I assume you were at z5 when they blew you OTB.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  2. #402
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    You talk about HR but how was your power? I do not care about absolute numbers but did you ride at z4 or z3 and etc. I assume you were at z5 when they blew you OTB.
    718 watts for a brief moment as I went OTB, which is outside all the zone definitions, given we think my FTP is in the 270-300 range. I was cranking harder and harder trying to hang in, and then exploded. We'll be doing a test soon to nail down my zones; Coach didn't want to do that in the middle of the races because of the recovery needed after the test. Average for Sat looks to be somewhere in z3. I'll check the nominal when I'm at home and have WKO+.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  3. #403
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    If I were going to buy a Madone today, I would go for the 6.XX with full D/A, but with Race X lite wheels. I would make sure the Quarq fits. I would keep the cranks incase I need to send the PM back for repair and have a complete bike to sell on Ebay less the PM when I get a new one.
    Thanks for providing your experience and advice. I'm with you on the "all out approach". It's the way I've always been, and as you say, it has its plusses and minuses. Folks like us climb the learning curves rapidly, but we usually pay a price for it one way or another. I look at the bikes the way I've always looked at technology. When you buy, buy the best out there you can possibly afford. Because it won't stay the best for long, and having the best means its not holding you back. Now that I'm close to hanging in there with the lead pack, I won't accept my bike holding me back.

    The 5 series is now made in Taiwan. They changed that recently; I think for this year. I'm trying to find the weight difference between the 5 series and the 6 series for 2011 but don't have that info yet. The LBS guy sent a text to the Trek rep, but hadn't gotten a response yet when I left the shop. The 64cm 5.2 (Ultegra) weighed 18.2 without pedals or cages. I haven't ridden D/A, so it's hard for me to evaluate the bang for the buck over Ultegra.

    Wheels. So many choices; so many conflicting opinions on what matters most. Right now, I'm thinking weight is paramount for me, since it is the climbs that will be making the difference. I also like the concept of a wider rim, and the affect that is supposed to have on aero, cornering, and ride. Like the HED c2.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  4. #404
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    At 90 kilos and 718 watts, you were at 8.0 W/kg. Last year, at the Wente Road race, there is a very tough climb. A friend who raced in the 45+ 1.2.3.4 and is a cat 2 told me he did the tough part of the climb at 550 watts with the lead group. He is approximately 68 kilos. So he climbed it at 8 W/kg. Now that is not sustainable but they can do long enough to crush racers who cannot. 550 watts is within their anaerobic threshold limit for at least a couple of minutes.

    Two years ago, I did a 3 mile hill climb with the Master 55 + open. The climb starts with an 8% grade. I was with the lead group and I was at 800 watts with fresh legs and thinking this is nuts. What happens is the power starts to drop as the field settles into a sustainable effort. However, the drop was not fast enough for me. I knew I was about to blow up up and let them go. The average power on that climb for the winning 55+ racers was 350 watts for 17 minutes. The guy weighs about 64 kilos which put is power to weight at 5.5 w/kg for the climb.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #405
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, It is hard to go wrong with HED or Zipp. If money is no object, IMO, the number of opinions drops like a stone. If I were going after platinum at the speeds you are riding, I would go for Zipp 404 clinchers or tubies or the HED equivalent. You have to watch the weight limitation. Why would someone who could afford Zipps choose an Asian knockoff? I have Easton deep section carbon wheels, which IMO are really good and not cheap, as hand me downs at a great price from our women's pro team.
    Last edited by Hermes; 04-18-11 at 05:11 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #406
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm a bit leary of tubulars, but maybe that is unfounded. From reading, it seems like a field fix leaves you a bit compromised. Not enough to worry about? I suspect many people train on clinchers and swap to the tubies to race? IIRC, A'Jet may be doing that.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  7. #407
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Nice job on the race AZTallRider. Reads like you are beginning to understand you body's limits and strategy.

    I do have carbon 58 cm tubular wheels for racing. I don't worry about flats in RRs since I would not be able to rejoin the pack after a tire change. For crits I will put an extra set of wheels in the wheel pit and take advantage of the "free lap" if I got a flat. In my opinion the carbon tubulars do make a difference when racing. It's not scientific, but does feel faster to me, just like wearing nice clothes in an interview doesn't make you smarter.

    I've been away for a bit without Internet access and for the past 2 weeks have been suffering the effects of a sinus infection. There is no well to pull hard efforts from and my training and racing have been terrible. Thankfully this is a recovery week even though last week's work was the equivalent of a recovery week. Hopefully the pharmaceuticals will allow for some recovery soon.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  8. #408
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I am not aware of problems with tubulars that are glued on properly. Last Saturday, my wife hit a sharp rock on a descent in a time trial and cut the sidewall of her front tubie. The tire popped and went flat immediately at speed and on a turn. She stopped safely. We all felt that the reason she did not crash was that she was on a tubie that continued to provide traction even as there was no air left in the tire.

    A'Jet has the right take on tubies, racing and training. I do the same as he does.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  9. #409
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Nice job on the race AZTallRider. Reads like you are beginning to understand you body's limits and strategy.
    Thanks, A'Jet. It feels like I'm getting a handle on some of it. Just talked to Coach though, and she added a factor: I'm showing way too many power peaks when I'm in the pack, burning matches I need to save for the hills.

    I do have carbon 58 cm tubular wheels for racing.
    You and Hermes like wheels that seem very deep, especially for road racing. You have 58's; Hermes is saying Zipp 404, as opposed to the extrememly popular 303's. The Bontrager carbon xXx lights are about the lightest clincher out there, at ~1,300 - non aero. 303 tubies are only 1,171 grams and pretty darned aero... that is hard to resist for someone wanting to shed all the weight he can.

    What I was alluding to on the field fixes is that, if you put a new tire on in the field, it may not be as securely glued as what you took off?

    I've been away for a bit without Internet access and for the past 2 weeks have been suffering the effects of a sinus infection.
    Recover fast - it's racing season!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  10. #410
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Field fixes for tubulars are easy although I do not do them because I only race on the tubulars. However, you carry a spare tire with glue on the tire and take the flatted tire off and put on the other one. There should be glue left on the rim. Once the tire is pressurized, it will adhere to the rim but in a limited way so that you can get back to the starting point.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #411
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Thanks, A'Jet. It feels like I'm getting a handle on some of it. Just talked to Coach though, and she added a factor: I'm showing way too many power peaks when I'm in the pack, burning matches I need to save for the hills.
    I do not see how one can race at 25 mph + and not have power peaks. When I road race, I get a lot of spikes and peaks. It is impossible to stay hidden in the peloton. There are inevitable surges, slight gaps and etc. Each time one is exposed to the wind the power will spike. Even a slight grade at higher speeds will spike the power. By your description, I think you did a fabulous job in energy management.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  12. #412
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi,

    First of all, I am glad that I went to do the TT on Saturday. First, it was a beautiful day which was very welcome by me because it seems like whenever I've gotten a chance to ride outdoors this year it's been cool. Second I mostly redeemed my very poor performance on this course a month ago.

    I was hoping for a PR but missed that by a fair margin. Still I felt OK and felt like my fitness is progressing.

    This coming weekend I have a hilly 32 mile road race on Saturday and a flat 10.4 mile TT on Sunday. Hoping to hang with the pack on Saturday and I hope that I have enough left on Sunday to average 25 MPH. Of course, this is all wishful thinking.

    Hermes, that is very cool that your team got some personal coaching from Roger. I hope his voice was strong enough for you to understand everything he had to say.

    For the rest of you, just in case you don't know about Roger Young, he is the Director of the velodrome and he has won more US national championships during the 1960s into the 1980s than I can count. Roger was also on some US Pan American Games teams and if I remember correctly, he made the infamous Olympic team for the boycotted 1980 games. Oh, and Roger is Sheila Young's brother. You might have heard of her from speed skating.

    AzTR, regarding racing bikes, yes a large frame tends to be more flexible than a small frame, but the flexibility tends to affect handling more than power transfer (as Hermes noted). Race bikes are also generally shorter coupled for quicker handling.

    The three most important things in purchasing a bike are fit, fit, and fit. If you are going to go all out, I would recommend finding a reputable fitter who specializes in fitting bike racers. There is a significant fit difference between a bike racing fit and a triathlon fit.

    You will probably also want to size the bike in a way that you can "grow" into it. What I mean is that given your description of your current bike, your saddle to handlebar drop is probably not that great. You can't just jump on to a bike with a lot of drop because you need to work on back flexibility and figure out how to breathe when you are in an aero position. I would get a bike with a short enough head tube to that you can get the bars low later on. You can start with a few spacers under the stem and use a 6 "rising" stem to start. I have a small frame but you can see the drop on my soon to be departed Lapierre:



    Get the fitting and then find a frame that works with the fit dimensions. Your fitter may be able to recommend specific frames that will work with your fit.

    On the subject of your power output, is your coach more of a triathlon coach? As Hermes noted, power output during a race varies widely. My understanding is that you want a very steady power output in a triathlon, but in a bike race your power output will be all over the place due to terrain and variations in pack speed. That's one reason for doing intervals is to simulate the variations in effort during a race.

    Anyway, sounds like you had a good ride on Saturday. Hopefully you can also get some weekend USAC races into your schedule. A couple of sayings in bike racing are: the best training for racing is racing and you only really learn to race by racing.

    Good luck with your next race and stay safe.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  13. #413
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I've had two professional fittings on my current bike. The first was by the guy who helped me define the geo when I ordered it. His shop, home of the areas top team, has one of the fitmaster rigs you can setup with any dimensions, so you can get a feel for the fit in advance. We used that to dial in the custom spec's. As my training load increased, I was having some issues I thought might be fit related, and so I got a fitting by the guy here in the Phx area with the best rep, who does dynamic fitting with a video setup. His shop also has a great racing team. After an evaluation that included physical characteristics and such, he lowered my seat quite a bit, and moved it back. He also raised my bars, which I had gradually been dropping. My (knee) issues went away. When combined with a new seat with a full length cutout, I went from being limited by comfort/irritation issues, to not being limited by them at all.

    When I was looking at the new bike, we brought my current bike in to compare. The fit can be easily duplicated with one exception, and that is of course the bar-drop. HT on my bike is 29cm, and it's 25 on the new bike. The Madone was configured with the stem up (I think it's a 6* stem) and max spacers. That leaves it 2cm lower than my current bike, measuring from the front axle. But my bike has more BB drop (something not included in the Trek spec's), so I think the difference is a little bit greater than that. Call it 3cm. Surprisingly, when you measure from the tip of the saddle to the bars, the measurements are identical. However the greater drop makes it feel like I'm stretched out more.

    What I think I'll do is to replicate the Madone fit on my Gunnar, going back this week if need be, and then ride that setup when I do a Metric charity ride this Saturday. Unlike other parts of the country where it's considered 'de-classe', people here 'race' the charity rides. I think it's because we have so few USAC road races. There's Valley of the Sun, Tucson Bike Classic, Bike the Bluff, and nothing else I can think of. Saturday isn't an "A" race for me, but I'll use it to practice hanging with the pack.

    It's also a redemption ride, and the anniversary of the ride that got me hooked. This was the first long ride of my life last year. I did it without group riding experience, tried to ride with pack, blew up after 10 miles, crashed into a curb trying to maintain a pace after being dropped, and ended up knocked unconcious with cracked ribs, being cared for by two really hot paramedics. Something about all that made me really want to race bicycles.

    I truly appreciate all the help and advice from you guys with the experience. I can't overstate the benefit it has provided.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  14. #414
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Great story regarding your initiation into racing. Are you sure that after hitting your head on a curb the two really hot paramedics were female?
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  15. #415
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Great story regarding your initiation into racing. Are you sure that after hitting your head on a curb the two really hot paramedics were female?
    ROFL... I sure hope so, especially the redhead. They kept saying my BP was low. My response was "Just stand a little closer." :-)
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  16. #416
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I see a pattern... hot paramedics.... hot coach.... alleged thigh soreness.... hot coach has to measure soreness.... Am I missing anything?
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  17. #417
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Cleave, We missed you at LAVRA but it was great seeing you Thursday night. I am glad you got redemption and had a good TT. It looks like they changed the qualifying for elite track nationals. There is none other than race category (Cat 2 or better for mass start events) and none for timed events. So I have great news. You and I can race the Kilo and 4K pursuit with the really fast guys. It will be between you and I for DFL.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  18. #418
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AZT, As a word of caution.... Small changes in saddle to bar drop can have a dramatic impact on your back. I could see lowing the bar 5 mm and see how that feels for a short ride. Lowering it lot and then doing a fast metric does not sound conservative to me but.... Good luck on the ride.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  19. #419
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I see a pattern... hot paramedics.... hot coach.... alleged thigh soreness.... hot coach has to measure soreness.... Am I missing anything?

    Cute redhead? One is always appreciated.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  20. #420
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Cute redhead? One is always appreciated.

    Good catch. And maybe a very flexible back.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  21. #421
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Hey, there are lot of ways to enjoy cycling.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #422
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I went to the track yesterday with my wife for a motor pacing session. We did around 100 laps of the 335 meter track and some solid efforts. It was a great morning for a workout and it was fun to be behind the motor again at the Hellyer track.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #423
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great workout. Is there a huge difference between riding the Hellyer outdoor track and the indoor track in LA? Do you ride both so you have experience on both types of tracks?

    Arizona has neither type. Every now and then, someone tries to put together an effort to get something funded and built. Last idea I heard was to do it on an Indian reservation, with betting on the races. An indoor track would seem to be indicated by our weather, but the AC costs would be 'ginormous'.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  24. #424
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Riding the 250 meter wooden track is more challenging than the 335 meter cement track. Since it is wood and very slippery, it is easy to slide down the track. Every track has a process to follow to learn to ride at the track. LA requires a certification for track racers from other tracks unless you are a Cat 2 or higher whereas if you show up at Hellyer and announce that you are experienced on the track, we will let you train and race.

    LA is the only enclosed 250 meter wooden track certified for championship events in the USA. They are very expensive to build and track racing per se will not support the debt service, equity return and operating and maintenance. Hence, there are very few globally. I have met some riders from Arizona who race at LA.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #425
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I have met some riders from Arizona who race at LA.
    We even have a track championship... in San Diego.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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