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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I did it!, Took the leaf of faith!, Threw caution into the wind!, Just HTFU'ped! Oh man, the ah-haw moment!
    Nice work. This kind of post may inspire me to get rollers.

    Hermes, Cleave, Alleghany, AZ - thanks to all for your replies. Yeah, maybe my training is too much higher intensity right now, I'll cut some of the LT and over stuff back in favor of more aerobic time and cycling specific weight training. My interval session each week always has high cadence spinning (120+) and often one leg drills, but that's about it for technique drills.

    So I can better interpret all your workouts would you mind providing a brief "key" as to your HR zone designations, there seem to be a lot of different conventions out there. For example, I use a 7 zone system which designates zones 1 to 4 and 5a, 5b and 5c. LT is the bottom of z5a in this system but for Cleave's it's the bottom of z4. Here's the rest of the system I use:

    z1/z2 - below .88 LT HR
    z3 - .89 to .93
    z4 - .94 to .99
    z5b - 1.03 to 1.05
    z5c - anything higher

    Haven't been to lab to determine LT HR but I've used 4 different methods of estimating it based on various timed efforts and they all point to the range of 156 to 158.
    Facts are stubborn and inconvenient things

  2. #27
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    There are different methods for determining zones, and the important thing is to match your workouts to the method you use. For instance, don't use a Friel workout with zones determined using someone else's methods. I had a metabolic test that determined my LT, and I used Friel's book to determine my zones based on that. They differed from the from the zones determined by the metabolic test using methodology from the Australian Institute of Sports, but I planned to use Friel's book to create workouts, and wanted to be consistent. When I hired my coach, she had me redefine my zones in Training Peaks and my computer to match the ones from the metabolic test, as they most precisely matched my metabolism, and because she knows and trusts the guy who did the testing. She is defining my workouts using the zones from the test:

    LT = 161 MHR ~179 (Could be a bit higher; not sure)

    Zone 1: Recovery...................106-121
    Zone 2: Aerobic.....................122-146
    Zone 3: Tempo......................147-155
    Zone 4: Threshold..................156-164
    Zone 5A: Aerobic Capacity ......165-173 (Also called Anaerobic Endurance)
    Zone 5B: Power/VO2...............174-174
    Zone 5C: Anaerobic Capacity....175-176
    Last edited by AzTallRider; 01-03-11 at 01:51 PM.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  3. #28
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Here is Joe Frie's "Quick Guide" from his blog. His book provides a table based on LT.

    Bike Zones
    Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR
    Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR
    Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR
    Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR
    Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR
    Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR
    Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  4. #29
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I did it!, Took the leaf of faith!, Threw caution into the wind!, Just HTFU'ped! Oh man, the ah-haw moment!
    See, your wife's worries were groundless.

    Congratulations!

    And Jet, you have NO recovery days?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  5. #30
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I like the Coggan values developed by (Dr. Andrew Coggan, a renown exercise physiologist who has published a number of cycling-related scientific articles including Training and Racing with a Power Meter and is a National-caliber Masters cyclist himself) defines his power training zones into seven unique levels as follows:

    Level 1: Active Recovery, less than 55% of FTP
    Level 2: Endurance, 56-75% of FTP
    Level 3: Tempo, 76-90% of FTP
    Level 4: Threshold, 91-105% of FTP
    Level 5: VO2 max, 106-120% of FTP
    Level 6: Anaerobic Capacity, 121-150% of FTP
    Level 7: Neuromuscular Power, more than 150% of FTP

    Below is a link to a table that also shows the Coggan heart rate zones which have slightly different % than the power. FTP is functional threshold power and it is the maximum amount of power one can sustain for one hour. It is a very tough standard. You will note that Coggan does not define a heart rate for levels about z5

    http://www.peaksware.com/articles/cy...ew-coggan.aspx

    For all the efforts that I do from z3 to z6, I try to hit the minimum power level in the zone and finish the set at the same or better power. It is better to do more intervals within the zone than a couple at the beginning at the high end or even above the power zone and then quit early or have decreasing power that finishes below the zone.

    Everyone uses and believes in different guys and zones. Whatever one does on a consistent basis, IMO, will yield results.

    I like Coggan's credentials and he is a successful racer who has pushed the training envelope with power training and software so I have standardized on his.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #31
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm still working my way through his/Allen's book. When I finally pull the trigger on the Quarq, I'll be switching over to using his power zones. I subscribed to Wattage, and it's great seeing folks like him make their expertise available.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  7. #32
    Council of the Elders billydonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Never won. I was 5th, 2nd and 3rd at NCAA National Champs, close but no cigars. I'll have to try the OJ.

    Now-a-days I do things like this in lieu of doping : http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8195197/
    "Ride the pain train"..... I love that! Very good! (Was watching one of the older videos... the black & white one.)
    Last edited by billydonn; 01-03-11 at 04:17 PM.

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    to old age and infirmity. You first.
    My Cycling Blogspot

  8. #33
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    AJ, I just got a chance to watch the video. It is hilarious.

    Do you "create" those while riding the rollers or do you create them professionally? Whatever, keep them coming.
    BTW, your SO in the video is "hot".
    I couldn't even attempt to think about something else while on the rollers other than keeping the bike upright and hitting my cadence and time. As for doing it as a profession, I race bikes as my 2nd profession and don't need another job.

    Thank you for noticing my "hot and fit" wife. My wife also noticed and I got a "good boy".
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  9. #34
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    See, your wife's worries were groundless.

    Congratulations!

    And Jet, you have NO recovery days?
    This is my 4th year of training for racing and the 3rd with a coach. Last week was a recovery week and this week is the beginning of the next build cycle. Today's workout is a recovery ride even though I had to warm up into Z3 prior to the 45 minute overgear. My HR in the over gear was high Z2 - low Z3. A year or two ago my Monday workouts would have been 45 minute easy spin. Once the hard work begins, later in the season, I will be doing Monday and Friday rides @ 45 minute easy spin. I do have this Thursday as a rest day from riding.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  10. #35
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    milmo,

    My HR zones are based on an estimated MHR of 173 bpm. My coach and I worked on establishing the max based on some specific efforts and adding a few beats. Using the max my coach established my zones for his training plan. FWIW my zones are:

    Z1 < 125
    Z2 = 126 - 137
    Z3 = 138 - 145
    Z4 = 146 - 155
    Z5 = 156 and higher

    My Powertap wheel-set will be arriving any day and I'll get a slew of new numbers to be my master.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  11. #36
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billydonn View Post
    "Ride the pain train"..... I love that! Very good! (Was watching one of the older videos... the black & white one.)
    That would have been the "HTFU workout". Glad you enjoyed it.
    Last edited by Allegheny Jet; 01-03-11 at 06:45 PM.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  12. #37
    M21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I did it!, Took the leaf of faith!, Threw caution into the wind!, Just HTFU'ped! Oh man, the ah-haw moment!

    I finally took my hands off the bar and rode the rollers no-handed. I needed to ride overgear with changes of hand positions that included riding no-handed. I put the rollers in a doorway and moved furniture, covered the floors and put the dog in the laundry room. Did the 15 min. warm up into Z3 as prescribed then started the 45 minute overgear interval. First hand position was drops, then tops, then no-handed and then hoods rotating each position for 3 minutes.

    The first 3 minute no-handed interval was dicey at the start when I let the constant cadence and force dip a little. Once I felt like I was flying on my own the 3 minute interval became easy. On later intervals I was able to make a seamless transition to sitting upright with no hands as long as I concentrated on keeping constant force on the pedals.

    2011 is starting out as a good year.
    I do not race but I do have an Emotion Roller that I bought from Inside Ride out of Oregon last January. I am now on the roller fulltime because you cannot ride outside in North Idaho this time of year. I ride it about 1 hour everyday during the winter. I was wondering can you stand up and sprint on yours? I can on mine because of it's design you cannot ride out of it. I started the no hand thing last week just because I thought it would be fun to try and have also made it part of my workout. The roller has improved my riding form. I said I do not race but that is not entirely true. They hold an Ironman in my town of Coeur d' Alene Idaho in June. I ride the course a couple of times a week. Whenever someone passes me and gets ahead and looks back the race is on! If they just pass and keep going I let them go. I can't stand someone passing me just to pass. I can usually take them on the hills and when I pass I am riding up on my ergos and tell them this is my areo postion. I really like this thread thanks for the info!
    Last edited by M21; 01-04-11 at 11:23 AM.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    We now have a racing and training for racing thread for those 50+, 60+, 70+ or ??80+??!!

    Please join in if you have an interest in any type of racing or training for racing. While not my cup of tea, I thoroughly enjoy reading of the exploits of others, their training regimens and successes (no failures here)! So do others.

    This is a sticky, so you need to make special checks for new posts, as it will always be in the top four, and will not move around much in the thread queue with new posts.

    Enjoy.
    Is training that's not for racing in-scope?

  14. #39
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    I wouldn't want to get a reputation for writing polls. Doesn't everyone who races bikes dope? And those that don't race? Personally, I dope with OJ.
    I tried dope, but I didn't win the TdF, so I gave it up.

  15. #40
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M21 View Post
    I am now on the roller fulltime because you cannot ride outside in North Idaho this time of year. I ride it about 1 hour everyday during the winter. I was wondering can you stand up and sprint on yours?
    I have the Performance band Travel Trac rollers that cost $129 on sale. In order to stand (ots) I put the bike into the 53/12 to 14 gear and keep my butt over the saddle and grip the bars as lightly as possible. I concentrate on staying on top of the pedals and maintain as smooth a pedal stroke as I can maintain. I found it harder to maintain a cadence faster than 70-75 as the bike starts to go forward/backwards on the rollers. I intend to be able to increase the cadence as the winter moves on and maybe to the point of calling it a sprint.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  16. #41
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
    Is training that's not for racing in-scope?
    This will have to be taken up with the "committee". Wait... we do not have one. Well, since all training is good training, I say post away and see what happens. That is like the question should I race. Show up and see what happens is usually provides the best answer.

    Edit: We racers reserve the right to comment. One of my former coaches, who coached racers as well as riders who wanted to do events, said, it is okay to be slow but one must look and act like pro.
    Last edited by Hermes; 01-04-11 at 12:23 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  17. #42
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I certainly didn't qualify as looking pro on this morning's slow commute. We have so little cold weather I haven't invested in winter gear, but it has been reaaly cold lately. So I wore black shoes with red highlights, long green wool socks, knee warmers made from sleeves cut off an old sweatshirt (faded black) tucked into the legs of my black road shorts, a black Under Armor shirt underneath my multi-colored club jersery with enough sleeve hanging out to handle any snot rocket leftovers, Mechanix gloves, helmet and shades. I wanted to violate today's z2 directive just to reduce the time I was at risk of being seen, and I waited until my wife was gone before I 'dressed' and left. Oh, and I forgot to mention the green backpack, which at least matched my socks.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  18. #43
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I certainly didn't qualify as looking pro on this morning's slow commute. We have so little cold weather I haven't invested in winter gear, but it has been reaaly cold lately. So I wore black shoes with red highlights, long green wool socks, knee warmers made from sleeves cut off an old sweatshirt (faded black) tucked into the legs of my black road shorts, a black Under Armor shirt underneath my multi-colored club jersery with enough sleeve hanging out to handle any snot rocket leftovers, Mechanix gloves, helmet and shades. I wanted to violate today's z2 directive just to reduce the time I was at risk of being seen, and I waited until my wife was gone before I 'dressed' and left. Oh, and I forgot to mention the green backpack, which at least matched my socks.
    In disguise... There are many ways to look like a pro.... The important ones are weight, attitude, spin, posture, position, handling skills and behavior.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  19. #44
    M21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I have the Performance band Travel Trac rollers that cost $129 on sale. In order to stand (ots) I put the bike into the 53/12 to 14 gear and keep my butt over the saddle and grip the bars as lightly as possible. I concentrate on staying on top of the pedals and maintain as smooth a pedal stroke as I can maintain. I found it harder to maintain a cadence faster than 70-75 as the bike starts to go forward/backwards on the rollers. I intend to be able to increase the cadence as the winter moves on and maybe to the point of calling it a sprint.
    The all out sprinting potential of the Emotion Roller is what sold me on them. I looked up the Travel trac rollers and what a good deal they are and what a good deal you got. I saw your race win photos on the Spring Dreams thread, great win and good photo, looks like you lwere having fun!
    Last edited by M21; 01-05-11 at 02:15 PM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    milmo,

    My HR zones are based on an estimated MHR of 173 bpm. My coach and I worked on establishing the max based on some specific efforts and adding a few beats. Using the max my coach established my zones for his training plan. FWIW my zones are:

    Z1 < 125
    Z2 = 126 - 137
    Z3 = 138 - 145
    Z4 = 146 - 155
    Z5 = 156 and higher

    My Powertap wheel-set will be arriving any day and I'll get a slew of new numbers to be my master.
    Z1 to Z4 look exactly like mine, then the Friel methodology further subdivides z5 as mentioned by AZ and myself.

    The max HR I've observed is 170, but since I didn't pass out in the effort I figure it's 1 or 2 higher.
    Facts are stubborn and inconvenient things

  21. #46
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milmo View Post
    Z1 to Z4 look exactly like mine, then the Friel methodology further subdivides z5 as mentioned by AZ and myself.

    The max HR I've observed is 170, but since I didn't pass out in the effort I figure it's 1 or 2 higher.

    Correct, my Zones are based on Friel's. Two years ago my coach was giving me workouts using Friels’ zones and I was using Karvonen which didn't work well until we made the connection. The Kavonen Z3 is similar to Friel’s Z4 and doing long Z3 intervals became problematic. I have also viewed sustained HR #'s that were beyond my MHR during races with temps of over 100 degrees. The high rate on that occasion was due to the heat and not the effort, and I did not adjust my MHR on those numbers.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  22. #47
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milmo View Post
    Z1 to Z4 look exactly like mine, then the Friel methodology further subdivides z5 as mentioned by AZ and myself.

    The max HR I've observed is 170, but since I didn't pass out in the effort I figure it's 1 or 2 higher.
    My wife used to state categorically that the max HR she could achieve cycling was 155 when her recorded max running HR was 175. On the Wente road race after a 3 miles slight climb, she hit 161 on the 2 mile 7% grade and subsequently in another race hit 163. I hit 182 once. So max HR is an interesting number and seems to be different for different sports. For me, my HR is higher when racing on hot days.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #48
    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, I find that the world of racing seems to be biased against slow people, so that limits my involvment. But most of my cycling to some extent revolves around getting better, getting stronger, losing weight, etc., so it's headed in the racing direction. Only race I'm planning is the Texas Time Trials 12-hour version next fall.
    "be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."

  24. #49
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenH View Post
    Unfortunately, I find that the world of racing seems to be biased against slow people, so that limits my involvment. But most of my cycling to some extent revolves around getting better, getting stronger, losing weight, etc., so it's headed in the racing direction. Only race I'm planning is the Texas Time Trials 12-hour version next fall.
    Generally, time trials are 85% legs, heart and lungs, 10% brain and 5% equipment. I find the toughest part of a long time trial i.e. 1 hour is the mental focus. I imagine a 12 hour time trial will require near infinite ability to focus on power production while putting the accumulating pain out of your mind. That sounds just nasty. It seems like the ride a lot axiom will be the training method of choice but for a 12 hour TT, it will be ride a lot by yourself with focus on keeping power on the pedals constantly.

    The way we do that in 40K time trials is to break the race down into management distances that we can get our mind around which is 10 K. For example, it is a bad idea to think about the 1/2 point and arrive feeling bad and then think OMG I have another 20 K to go.

    I would talk with others who have done the event to see what training regimen they used. Good luck.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #50
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I looked at the Texas Time Trial web site and rules. It is an interesting event. Have fun with that.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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