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  1. #5076
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Hi Hermes, this all very complicated and expensive which is why every time I thought about a power system I got a headache (and wallet-ache) and gave up. I keep reading everything I can about what's available and what is going to be available. I've been looking at several wheel builders (including someone on BF) and it seems like my "best" deal is from Williams Cycling. They currently have a sale on builds with Powertap G3 hubs. I can get both sets of wheels for about $3,700. I can offset some of the price of the wheels by selling my current race wheels.

    I am waiting for word on the SRM SRAM cranks from the guy on Slowtwitch. Looking at the SRM web site, converting my new Specialized cranks on my TT bike to SRM will cost me $2K plus the cost of cranks for my training and race bikes. With the proposed wheel setup I at least train on the TT bike with power.

    I managed to find the Keo Power pedals for $2K. That might be the cheapest way for me to get power on all of my bikes. I'm a little concerned about wear and tear on the pedals and my cranks with frequent pedal changes but even if I bought two sets of pedals it's only marginally more expensive than the wheels. Of course my bikes will look extra geeky with a Garmin and a Polar computer since the pedals are not ANT+ compatible. I suppose I could put the Polar computer in my pocket since I'd only use it to collect power data.

    OK, my head is starting to hurt again.
    Let me know what the guy quotes you on the SRM, I'm a dealer.

    If you have the SWorks crank all you need is the spider. PM me for more details.

  2. #5077
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    OK, just got the price for the SRM SRAM S975 cranks (power meter only) and two cranks are competitive with the wheels. However, that still wouldn't give me power on the TT bike unless I started swapping cranks between the road race bike and the TT bike ā la AzTR.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  3. #5078
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    unless I started swapping cranks between the road race bike and the TT bike ā la AzTR.
    Which I bet you'd find ends up easier than swapping pedals. Pedals are a PITA to secure the crank, and, well, there are two them!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  4. #5079
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Cleave, One consideration is that you have not trained and raced with power. If you had experience, it would be more clear. When I got my PT wheel and started training with power and using the data collected, I wanted more. So it becomes easier to justify more crank based systems. IMO, power readout is very valuable on the TT bike both for training and racing. Crits and road races are more tactical and you are either in or out. Post race analysis is interesting. In a TT, pacing is critical and power meter is very valuable during the race and after. Since you like to TT, I suggest giving the TT bike a priority and going with crank based power. And do more training on your TT bike with power. That will definitely improve your race performance.

    What bikes are you going to equip with the two SRM cranks? BTW, Racer Ex's approach is SRM on all bikes. My approach is power meters on all bikes and that is for MEA and me. I have more PMs than wheelsets. If I think about it too much I go crazy. I asked Racer Ex when it all stops. He said when the money runs out.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #5080
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    One consideration, well maybe two, on the sharing a PM between bikes thing. You need to have BB's on each bike that match the crankset. That isn't hard as there are several good manufacturers of bearings and BB's. Like Shovel, I have SRAM GXP and have configured all my bikes to accept that. The other consideration is that it takes away the ability to have larger chainrings on the TT bike than the road bike, which some people like to do. I use 53/39 Q-Rings, and so far I haven't spun out in a TT.

    My Quarq does fine, and as everyone says their service is great. But if I were doing it over, I'd probably go SRM. Quarq is subject to drift unless a) you figure out how to avoid that yourself using known techniques, or b) you are adamant that they correct any drift issues you have. I think there is typically about a $500 price difference. That really doesn't amount to much over the life of the product, especially if you go the single unit route.

    Edit: I'll point out the most current Quarq product looks to have addressed the drift issue mechanically, but I haven't heard whether it has or hasn't.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #5081
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi, I knew I'd get a lot of help on this.

    My three (3) bikes for training and racing are a Serotta Attack with a standard English threaded BB; a Cannondale SuperSix EVO with a BB30 BB and currently with Campy Ultra-Torque cups pressed in; and a Specialized Shiv which came with a Specialized S-Works Carbon cranks (BB30). I suppose it's possible to put the S-Works crank with an SRM power meter on to the SuperSix though I'm not really sure if the connecting bolt that holds the crank spindle together is really designed to be torqued numerous times. The Serotta would need it's own power meter if I went with a crankset-based solution.

    Hermes, I agree that the TT bike is probably the most critical but at the same time I spend a very small percent of my total miles on that bike. Of course, I may need to change that. My fantasy goal for this year (and most of the recent past years) is to be as relatively good a climber as I was when I was a reasonably competitive Cat 3 in the 1980s. Remember, I started that sentence with 'fantasy.'

    The Look Polar Keo Power pedals are a bit of a data kluge because the pedals are not ANT+ compatible. I'm waiting to hear if my favorite training software, SportTracks, will allow relatively seamless merging of Garmin and Polar data.

    My best-racing-buddy who is currently unemployed said to buy the power meter now while I am employed. I guess that's parallel to what Ex said about running out of money.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  7. #5082
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Or I can continue to train unscientifically -- just ride and race a lot.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  8. #5083
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    That settles it. SRM's for all your bikes and you are done and set. It is only money and you cannot take it with you
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  9. #5084
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Another option is to equip the road race bike with the crank based power, and get a Powertap wheelset that can be used on the Serrota and the TT bike, with a disc cover if you like.

    Crits are tactical but if you are OTF having power on board is helpful.

  10. #5085
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Cleave has some very nice racing wheel sets including a disc for the TT bike. Cleave is primarily a crit racer but does not like to race his Serrota in crits. I think it is an SRM for the TT bike and a nice PT wheel for training and racing in crits. Otherwise, SRMs for all the kids.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #5086
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    I am so confused. (Self-induced, of course.)
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  12. #5087
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    I am so confused. (Self-induced, of course.)
    Keep it in mind that Hermes fills his toy box buy purchasing the contents for his wife.
    Last edited by Allegheny Jet; 12-06-12 at 06:13 AM.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  13. #5088
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Cleave has some very nice racing wheel sets including a disc for the TT bike. Cleave is primarily a crit racer but does not like to race his Serrota in crits. I think it is an SRM for the TT bike and a nice PT wheel for training and racing in crits. Otherwise, SRMs for all the kids.
    OK, that's a different story then. Whatever you do, you want to maximize the investment in those wheels. That means crank power. If Mrs. Cleave showered you with cash, get cranks for every bike. Otherwise, this is what I think makes the most economic sense. Get the SRM spider for the Specialized crank. That's a really nice crankset, all it needs is the spider. TT bike set. Then pull the Ultra Torque cups from the Evo. At this point you have two ways to go depending on whether you go with a Quarq or SRM to be shared between the other two bikes.

    SRM: Get a Dura-Ace crank. Get a Shimano 5700/6700/7900 threaded bottom bracket for the Serotta ($50). Get a set of Wheels Inc. BB30-Hollowtech II adapters for the Evo ($30). Use your existing cranks as spares in case the SRM needs service if you are willing to swap BB's in the Serotta. If not, get a cheap 2300/5700/6700 crank as a spare. The Wheels Inc. adapters pop in and out.

    Quarq: Get an SRAM S975 crank. Get an SRAM GXP bottom bracket for the Serotta (I have a ceramic one if you need it - $50). Get a set of Wheels Inc. BB30->GXP adapters for the Evo ($30). Same deal as the SRM for spares, except you would need a GXP crank if you didn't want to mess with the BB in the Serotta. An Apex crank is around $100.

    You will need a head unit. SRM PC7, Garmin 500 or 800.

  14. #5089
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    IMO, Shovel has it nailed. I have non-power cranksets I can use if the Quarq is being serviced. One too many really, as I only need one, to share with the TT and road bike.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #5090
    Been here done this The Red Devil's Avatar
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    Yep what Shovel said, I swap my Rotor SRM between my three bikes, takes about 10min and I'm on my way. Ideally I would like to have a second crank with my TT rings installed and just leave it on the TT bike but that would be large investment in a PM that see's only about 1k miles a year.

  16. #5091
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Thanks all for the advice. A lot to think about. No love for the Look Polar Keo Power pedals? Anyone know anyone who has them?
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  17. #5092
    Senior Member VanceMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    No love for the Look Polar Keo Power pedals?
    This is finally the year! Pedal-based power... and flying cars!

  18. #5093
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Thanks all for the advice. A lot to think about. No love for the Look Polar Keo Power pedals? Anyone know anyone who has them?
    Proprietary interfaces are a non-starter for me.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  19. #5094
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Absolutely. No Garmin, no way.

  20. #5095
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Proprietary interfaces are a non-starter for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Absolutely. No Garmin, no way.
    Yeah, that's what I meant about the data kluge. I started using a polar HRM right after they came out in the mid-1980s. Used a Polar up until the Garmin 305 hit the shelves. I hated the interfaces that Polar had for downloading data I could never justify buying one. You'd laugh if you saw how many times I manually typed HR numbers in an Excel spreadsheet so I could analyze them. Can't remember the Polar model that had IrDA, but I was all over that when it came out. I still have a bunch of their sensors and handlebar mounts in a box in my garage.

    Anyway, according to this guy (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/07/p...dal-based.html), the next release of the Look Polar pedals will have Bluetooth 4 capability. At a minimum I could use my new phone to collect data when that happens. Or maybe by then Garmin will have their pedals out and working. Of maybe I will have won the lottery and money will be no object. Or maybe...
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  21. #5096
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Manufacturers going to Bluetooth are doing so to add metrics that aren't available in the Ant+ spec. Ant+ may have limited capacity, but it it is also low power consumption. Unless/until the industry (meaning primarily SRM, Quarq, and Garmin) moves towards something else, I'm sticking with Ant+ devices.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #5097
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Cleave, I will fly on the new Dreamliner. I will not be an early adopter of a pedal based power meter. Yesterday, I took the pedals off of MEA's track bike as well as the crank and skinned my knuckles. Screw that changing out equipment. I like Racer Ex's approach. Have a specialty bike for each event set up with the proper cockpit and electronics to optimize performance and minimize mistakes in changing out equipment.

    MEA and I rode TT bikes this AM and we took along some extra wheels. Getting two TT bikes ready to ride and all the other crap that goes with it is hard when everything is set up. We ride our TT bikes a lot. I would like to ride my TT bike a couple of times per week.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #5098
    West Coast Weenie Esteban58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Cleave, I will fly on the new Dreamliner. I will not be an early adopter of a pedal based power meter. Yesterday, I took the pedals off of MEA's track bike as well as the crank and skinned my knuckles. Screw that changing out equipment. I like Racer Ex's approach. Have a specialty bike for each event set up with the proper cockpit and electronics to optimize performance and minimize mistakes in changing out equipment.

    MEA and I rode TT bikes this AM and we took along some extra wheels. Getting two TT bikes ready to ride and all the other crap that goes with it is hard when everything is set up. We ride our TT bikes a lot. I would like to ride my TT bike a couple of times per week.
    Is this the Caņada road course? Is there a decent place to part nearby? Or did you just carry the extra wheels along with you ?
    there is no signature.

  24. #5099
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esteban58 View Post
    Is this the Caņada road course? Is there a decent place to part nearby? Or did you just carry the extra wheels along with you ?
    There are two are many places to part and we generally park at Canada and Edgewood. Today, we parked at Canada and 92. The extra wheels were in case of a flat which we got at the end of the session. This route is a good one for you to ride. I did two laps which is about 20 miles.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #5100
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hermes, I and my wife are definitely early adopters. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. For example, we took delivery of a Gen I Prius in December 2001. A few weeks ago, we took delivery of a 2013 Ford Focus Electric (and sold our Gen II Prius). Given all of my accumulated bike stuff (including some nicer wheels), I've been watching the (non?) development of pedal power meters. I bought the Garmin Edge 305 within a month of its release and I've been very happy with my Garmin computers since -- despite what some people say about Garmin and the computers on the web. Besides, someone has to be first, right?

    The best way for me to do crank-based power meters is to spend a lot more money than I think I can swing right now given that my three main bikes have incompatible BBs. Of course I've not mentioned my track bike in all of this discourse and that's the bike that I spend more training hours on other than the Serotta.

    Speaking of the track, if it's Thursday then it must be time for Roger's Session.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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