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  1. #501
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Sounds like fun, Hermes.

    If anyone know how to get their power back, I'm betting it's you, A'Jet.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  2. #502
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I read somewhere that hard "track cement" gives lower rolling resistance than "regular cement". Any advice on what cement to use with the tubulars I'm getting?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  3. #503
    gone ride'n cyclinfool's Avatar
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    I guess I should jump into this thread now that I am seriously into training for my race in June - that is if you'll have me.
    For the last few weeks my partner and I have been doing LT sprints, two weeks ago they were 3 10 minute sprints at LT with 6 minute rest intervals, last week it was 3 12 minute sprints at LT with 6 minute rests. We have been doing the same route for several years at 6AM two mornings a week. The route has two short climbs where we have been going above LT with a short rest as we barrel back down the hill. I have years of data on this ride. We are getting close to some of our best speeds we have ever hit on this ride - these times usually occur in July or Aug when we are on peak shape - so this training is doing some good. Yesterday we did hill repeats as we are training for an uphill race. I have data on my performance on the hill we used that spans 3 years. Yesterday was a WOW day, although I was supposed to do 4 repeats I only did 3, I felt the 4th would do more damage than good. However this morning when I checked my data I had my best times by almost 20%! My weight is about 5 lbs less, I solved some fit issues on the bike, using better tires and I put in a ceramic BB.

    I was sort of dreading the upcoming race, now I am psych'd. If my time improves up Whiteface by 10% or more form last year I have promised myself a pair of 2011 Easton EA90 SLX wheels. I think that is incentive enough to loose another 5 lbs and keep up the hard training until race day.

    Next week is a light week, we will ride the same ride but the training schedule calls for an easy week so no intense sprints, we hit it hard again the week after.
    This routine is from the book "The time crunched cyclist", my training partner put the routine together and it does seem to be working.
    "Of all the things I ever lost I miss my mind the most." Mark Twain
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  4. #504
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I read somewhere that hard "track cement" gives lower rolling resistance than "regular cement". Any advice on what cement to use with the tubulars I'm getting?
    I use Vittoria cement. Continental claims to have a cement that is more heat resistant for use with carbon rims. I have not seen "track" cement in shops or anyone using it per se.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #505
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclinfool View Post
    I guess I should jump into this thread now that I am seriously into training for my race in June - that is if you'll have me.
    Hey, if a verbose newbie like me can hang out here, then you will be warmly welcomed.

    Sounds like you've found a workout that is really working for you.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #506
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    But when we factored in my size, his concern over crosswinds went away, and he said that, to him, it boiled down to the durability of the 303 vs. the aero of the 404. Both are rated for up to 225#, which is one of the reasons I'm going with Zipp. Most others have a 200# or lower limit. I don't want to be right at the edge of the limit.
    Hi AzTR, I agree that you don't want to be near the weight limit. One thing to consider is that the rim sidewall on the newest Zipp rims are angled (vs straight) and require that you adjust your brake pads accordingly. This isn't an issue if you only have one set of these wheels or if all of your wheels are Zipp. The issue is that if you change between Zipp and "normal" wheels you have to readjust your brake pads. At a minimum this is a pain. For me it was a deal killer last year. I confirmed this situation with one of the testers from Pez Cycling. This is also too bad as I really liked the 2002 Zipp 303 wheels that I raced on for 5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I never think about age or gender when it comes to these matters. It was not until about an hour ago it occurred to me that I was 40 years older than them.
    Hi Hermes, as you know when I train at the LA Velodrome a lot of the riders at the session are "younger." I take that into account when I am suffering trying to hold a wheel -- meaning it's OK for me to be suffering. Of course, suffering to hold the wheels of young and fit women is not the worst thing in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I read somewhere that hard "track cement" gives lower rolling resistance than "regular cement". Any advice on what cement to use with the tubulars I'm getting?
    The only thing that I've heard of related to gluing tubulars on track wheels is using shellac. I have never done it but I heard it is very laborious and time consuming. I have never heard of anyone using the technique on road wheels.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclinfool View Post
    This routine is from the book "The time crunched cyclist", my training partner put the routine together and it does seem to be working.
    Hi cyclinfool, welcome to the "club." I read that book cover-to-cover. It was pretty interesting but I am too undisciplined in my training to establish that kind of plan. The other thing about the approach (and I have heard of other approaches like it) is that get you to a high level of fitness quickly for a very specific short period of time and then you have to take it back down just as quickly. Chris Carmichael provides that caveat quite clearly in the book.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  7. #507
    gone ride'n cyclinfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Hi cyclinfool, welcome to the "club." I read that book cover-to-cover. It was pretty interesting but I am too undisciplined in my training to establish that kind of plan. The other thing about the approach (and I have heard of other approaches like it) is that get you to a high level of fitness quickly for a very specific short period of time and then you have to take it back down just as quickly. Chris Carmichael provides that caveat quite clearly in the book.
    Cleave - Thanks for the warning. No doubt after the race I will need to take a few weeks of light riding.
    "Of all the things I ever lost I miss my mind the most." Mark Twain
    If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

  8. #508
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Hi Hermes, as you know when I train at the LA Velodrome a lot of the riders at the session are "younger." I take that into account when I am suffering trying to hold a wheel -- meaning it's OK for me to be suffering. Of course, suffering to hold the wheels of young and fit women is not the worst thing in the world.

    The only thing that I've heard of related to gluing tubulars on track wheels is using shellac. I have never done it but I heard it is very laborious and time consuming. I have never heard of anyone using the technique on road wheels.

    Hi cyclinfool, welcome to the "club." I read that book cover-to-cover. It was pretty interesting but I am too undisciplined in my training to establish that kind of plan. The other thing about the approach (and I have heard of other approaches like it) is that get you to a high level of fitness quickly for a very specific short period of time and then you have to take it back down just as quickly. Chris Carmichael provides that caveat quite clearly in the book.
    I am not complaining about following wheels. And LAV has some great wheels to follow.

    I have heard of using shellac as well. I think the most important aspect of gluing tubies is to have a thin layer of glue on the rim and the tire casing first, Then apply a final coat before mounting the tire. The goal is the thinnest amount of cement that adheres to both the rim and the casing.

    Have you not completed 31 races this year... racing is your training.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  9. #509
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    C'Fool, Welcome to hell.

    I think you have it right. If you want to be a great climber, you have to climb and suffer a lot and not weigh very much.

    We will look forward to your contributions, results and workouts.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #510
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Hi AzTR, I agree that you don't want to be near the weight limit. One thing to consider is that the rim sidewall on the newest Zipp rims are angled (vs straight) and require that you adjust your brake pads accordingly. This isn't an issue if you only have one set of these wheels or if all of your wheels are Zipp. The issue is that if you change between Zipp and "normal" wheels you have to readjust your brake pads. At a minimum this is a pain. For me it was a deal killer last year. I confirmed this situation with one of the testers from Pez Cycling. This is also too bad as I really liked the 2002 Zipp 303 wheels that I raced on for 5 years.
    I'm getting the new for 2011 "Firecrest" shape, on the right. It looks pretty straight, but I better check that aspect out. Lining up brake pads is time consuming.



    According to Zipp's tech notes on their website, it's the most aero shape they have come up with, matching the pre-Firecrest 808.



    The rounded 'trailing edge' provides a good leading edge for the back part of the wheel, balances cross-wind pressure to minimize it's affect, and expands the range of apparent wind angle with good performance. It also provides a lot of vertical compliance, through sidewall flex. Their video about its development is interesting. They were playing around with new shapes, and just hit on it almost by accident.

    This link has a description and the video:

    http://zipp.com/technologies/aerodynamics/firecrest.php
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  11. #511
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I am not complaining about following wheels. And LAV has some great wheels to follow.
    I thought I was going to have to head-butt someone yesterday to stay on one of the 'wheels' I was following for awhile.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  12. #512
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I'm getting the new for 2011 "Firecrest" shape, on the right. It looks pretty straight, but I better check that aspect out. Lining up brake pads is time consuming.
    Hi, from what I understand the 2011 rim cross-sections are the same as 2010. The 303 and 404 rims have similar braking surfaces. Here is the email that I sent to the Pez Cycling tester:

    Hello,

    After seeing that you have the latest Zipp 303 tubular wheels on your Cyfac I am hoping that you could render an opinion on a question that I have.

    I am considering replacing my Reynolds DV46 UL race wheels with Zipp 303s. My main concern about the Zipps it the "angled" braking surface. My spare, warmup, and training wheels (I train infrequently on my race bike - maybe 250 miles per year) are Roval carbon clinchers.

    Would the brake pads work reasonably without readjusting them on my Rovals? Out of the 1,500 or so miles that I put on my race bike each year, I might use my clinchers for 350 of those miles.

    TIA for any advice you can provide.


    Here is the response that I got:

    You'll need to adjust your pads... The 303 are wider and the angle is such that you wont get proper braking.

    I too am impressed by the aerodynamic properties of Zipp wheels (I use a Zipp 900 disc for road and track time trials) but as I said the brake adjustment issue killed it for me.

    Check with Zipp. If you find out something different please let me know.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  13. #513
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Check with Zipp. If you find out something different please let me know.
    The 303 was new for 2009, and is the "Hybrid Toroidal" shape. The Toroidal shape was subject to a patent that just expired. Zipp and HED had the patent rights, and that shape is now being replicated by other manufacturers:



    The 404 "Firecrest" is a new shape (for 2011 I believe), being used in the 404 and 808:

    Discovered as we developed our carbon clinchers, Firecrest refocused our thinking from the front to the back of the wheel. Previous rim shapes were designed to smooth airflow coming off the tire, and tapered inward from the widest point of a toroidal bulge. But Firecrest rims have a less pronounced bulge and maintain a near-constant width almost all the way to the spoke bed. Without giving up the proven benefits of the toroidal shape, Firecrest is the first aero profile that effectively controls airflow around the back half of the wheel.

    With a lower spoke count, and less reinforcing of the bridge (303 uses kevlar there), the downside is that the 404 isn't likely to be as durable - so said the Zipp rep. Tradeoff for the aero and flex. The trend seems to be towards greater width at the tire, and carrying that width deeper into the section.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  14. #514
    gone ride'n cyclinfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    C'Fool, Welcome to hell.

    I think you have it right. If you want to be a great climber, you have to climb and suffer a lot and not weigh very much.

    We will look forward to your contributions, results and workouts.
    Thanks guys.
    This week there will be not much to report, it's a slow week. I am just about out the door for a mild ride since this is the easy week. I travel for a couple of days so it works out well.

    Keep at it, you guys are an inspiration.
    "Of all the things I ever lost I miss my mind the most." Mark Twain
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  15. #515
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Hi,

    I'm not disputing the aero benefits of Zipp wheels. I am convinced that the 303 and 404 rims are some of the best out there for aero and durability.

    The diagram on the right shows the problem with the 303 and, I believe, the 404 with respect to brake pad alignment. The braking surface is angled "in" at the top. The diagram on the left shows a "straight" brake track. Again, my recollection from seeing similar cross-section diagrams of the 404 is that the brake track has the same or similar angle. That angle is what will cause you to have to readjust your brake pads if you use "normal" rims and the new Zipp rims.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  16. #516
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    I'm not disputing the aero benefits of Zipp wheels.
    I know you're not, Cleave. I'm just providing what I've learned, since the profiles have changed. I intend to contact Zipp and ask about the brake track of the new 404. Though I probably need to find someone who uses the new 404, or a LBS that knows enough about them.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  17. #517
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I suspect Zipp is trying to accommodate a large diameter tubular while maintaining excellent aerodynamics. Changing brake pad alignment is not a problem for a team with a dedicated mechanic or if you are only going to use the wheels a few times a year.

    When the Zipp sub9 disc came out, I purchased one. The added width just clears the chain stays of my Cervelo P2C TT bike. On some bikes, there was not enough clearance. When Cervelo introduced the S3 super aero frame, some wheels do not work with the frame due to the narrow nature.

    It seems there are compromises in getting a perfect match of wheels, bike frame and components.

    BTW, I read or heard that Armstrong allegedly glued his tubulars with epoxy to get the lowest rolling resistance. However, removal of the tire would be extremely difficult. If one has a cache of spare wheels and bike frames, anything is possible.

    AZT, good luck with Zipp. I like my Zipp discs (I have three - two 900s for road and track and a sub9 for road) and so far they have worked really well.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  18. #518
    gone ride'n cyclinfool's Avatar
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    An easy training day today, 17 miles at a light pace, beautiful morning at 6AM - sunny and mid 40's. Will travel for two days and then on Thursday it's 12 minute LT sprints. I will use my HRM on Thursday just to make sure I am there. Also sign up with a personal trainer for next Wed - we will go out for an hour over lunch. I'll see how she does and whether or not I want to continue.
    "Of all the things I ever lost I miss my mind the most." Mark Twain
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  19. #519
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Have you not completed 31 races this year... racing is your training.
    Hi, yes, as you saw elsewhere, this past Sunday was races 30 and 31 for the year: Master 50+ and Masters 40+ 1/2/3 criteriums. Interestingly, especially after last weekend's road race fiasco, I felt reasonably good.

    Just to recap an 8-day stretch, on Saturday a week ago I "raced" in a 74 mile Masters 35+ 1/2/3/4 road race. It turned into a 62 mile ITT for me and it took me 58 minutes to complete the last 14 mile lap. I was DFL.

    Tuesday evening in our weekly Master 40+ race (1 hour duration) I made it into the winning break but couldn't stay in due to a somewhat strange circumstance. Fortunately, I was far enough ahead of the pack that I was able to take a solo 7th.

    Sunday's 50+ race was fairly fast and aggressive. I made two big moves that were completely ill-timed but at least I wasn't anonymous. Typically I use my 2nd race of the day for training and the 40+ race started out that way. It was very fast (28-29 MPH average laps) and I was just trying to make sure I didn't get dropped. It slowed a bit and a younger teammate was working at the front. I thought he might need some help and worked my way up there. I was able to put in an effort at the front to keep myself from being total pack fodder. I ended up the day with about 45 miles of racing at about 26 MPH average.

    Some coaches say racing is the best training. I hope there is some truth to it.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  20. #520
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    Quick race reports: I did not make the last road race (Aaron Shafer Memorial RR) but did make a couple of circuit races and a criterium the last few weeks. The circuit races were at Barber Motorsports Park outside of Birmingham on April 23 and the criterium was near Nashville last weekend.


    Barber Motorsports races:
    At the last minute my middle daughter (senior in high school) decided to drive to Birmingham, about 3hrs from Nashville, to see her boyfriend (freshman in college) run his last track meet of the season. It turned out there was a circuit race at an auto race track (Barber Motorsports) not far from the track meet, so I decided (the night before) to roadtrip with her. I did not think I would be able to make the first race (Cat 5) but we arrived about 20 minutes before the start and I (a) got registered, (b) changed into racing kit, (c) pumped tires, (d) rushed to line just in time for the start of the 45 minute race--not a great way to start a race. The course was windy (long i) and windy (short i) with short hills. It took me a little while to learn to stay wide on several of the turns since there was a lot of yo-yoing when we would go through a turn and then hit an uphill. I settled down and was feeling good when, toward the end of the race, I found myself at the front of the pack chasing two other riders who were off. My margin of error is really slim at my current fitness level and it was disappointing that I cannot seem to help myself when I get into a race. I was not fully recovered when on the last lap a rider just in front of me crashed on a tight downhill turn. I was able to avoid him, but did not have the strength to hang onto the front group and limped in with a second group and was 15th out of 28. The second race I entered was Cat 4/5 30+ with 32 racers. During the first race, I noticed that the front derailleur was rubbing a bit when in the big chain ring. It turned out that I had installed the der. cable on the wrong side of the bolt a few weeks earlier and took this opportunity to start slipping. On the first lap it slipped so much that it shifted to the small chain ring and stayed there, so I had to ride most of the race at relatively high cadence. No one got away in this race. There was a final sprint and I was satisfied with again placing 15 considering the mechanical troubles.

    Brentwood Criterium

    Last weekend I did a 30 minute (Cat 5) local criterium in Bretnwood (a suburb of Nashvill). This time I stayed out of the wind and had no mechanical problems placing 10th out of 34. I should have started my push earlier on the last lap since I definitely felt like I had something left at the end. I was the only 50+ rider in the group.

  21. #521
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Nice job, Ahab. I've found that decision on when to push is a tough one, and something even the pros don't always get right. Most folks feel Cavendish was maybe a second or two late starting his sprint in the Giro stage 2, and missed the win by a couple of inches.

    This morning's workout on the ride in was "6 minute hills": 4x6, 320-335w (low VO2 Max), 70-75rpm. I maintained the prescribed power through all 4 reps, but my 6 minute hill turned out to be only 5 minutes long today due to a tailwind. Z2 for the rest of the 90 minutes. Cooked my legs, but I had recovered quite a bit after 10 minutes of cruising.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #522
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    This morning's workout on the ride in was "6 minute hills": 4x6, 320-335w (low VO2 Max), 70-75rpm. I maintained the prescribed power through all 4 reps, but my 6 minute hill turned out to be only 5 minutes long today due to a tailwind.
    Nice work!
    oldschool areodynamic brick

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post

    .... 4x6, 320-335w (low VO2 Max), 70-75rpm......

    Impressive!

  24. #524
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I’m crossing my fingers that I'm finally getting my mojo back from weeks of sinus infection, medication and recovery. Sunday's L4 intervals showed some power coming back and a good 30 second heat check effort. I was supposed to do 6 x 5' intervals @ 305-325 watts for the first 4 minutes then finish out the last minute at 340+ watts which is not a killer workout by any means. But considering how I’ve been riding and resting this was to be a good test. On the fifth interval I developed a cramp in my left calve, the leg with the ankle fused, and did not finish out the L4 work. On Saturday I did a lot of yard work digging, shoveling and pushing a wheel barrow which may have overloaded the calve. The final minute of the reps was easier to ride than minutes #3 and 4. I just could not get a smooth round pedal stroke with constant power with a cadence of 90+ without putting out too many watts or not enough watts during the first 4 minutes of the intervals. It was windy and that may have had an effect on constant power/effort. On the 30 second OTS heat check effort sprinting up a steep small hill I averaged 846 watts that was just 8 watts under my PR.

    Tonight our local Tuesday Night Training Race Series begins. I’ll start out the season riding in the B race for racing experience, then morph into the A race after a few weeks to focus on the speed work needed just to stay in the pack among the studs.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  25. #525
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I just could not get a smooth round pedal stroke with constant power with a cadence of 90+ without putting out too many watts or not enough watts during the first 4 minutes of the intervals.
    I swear, some days it is just impossible to keep the power constant.

    My worst workout, ever, was after our Mardi Gras party that had a couple of days of prep in the kitchen - destroyed my legs more than any cycling would have.

    On the 30 second OTS heat check effort sprinting up a steep small hill I averaged 846 watts that was just 8 watts under my PR.
    Wow... You da Man, Jet. My best 30'' is 596w, during a hill attack workout April 12.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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