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  1. #5326
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    That's not entirely true. High frequency hearing loss is part of the aging process. You may not notice it, but it is there, and can be measured. It just may not have hit you yet.

    There is a difference between hearing loss and hearing acuity. One can have very high hearing acuity with hearing loss. They have learned to compensate. But there is no replacing hearing loss. Once it's gone, it's gone.

    My kids are deaf and use cochlear implants and hearing aids. Their loss is genetic, but my wife and I don't have each other's side of the gene pool so we don't have hearing issues. At least most of the time.
    You're right, I confused "loss" with "acuity". And I'm the one who was trained as an audio engineer way back when! The norm is loss above 10KHz, and it starts at 16KHz and works it's way down as we age. We're programmed naturally to have the most sensitivity to sound in the human speech range (Fletcher-Munson Curves). With hearing loss, we maintain that sensitivity, but intelligibility suffers. That's related to loss of acuity as well as the onset of degrading problems such as tinnitus. Last year I had my hearing tested at the NAMM show. I was told by the tester that I was a "candidate for a hearing aid". My right ear is worse than my left, due largely (I think) to amount of time I spent flying Bell 212/412 helicopters in the right seat. On that side of the aircraft, the pilot and "jump" doors rattled incessantly and loudly, and the #2 hydraulic pump (on the front of the main transmission) was almost as loud. I religiously wore earplugs as well as a David Clark active noise attenuating headset, but still - I suffered damage. The tinnitus I can live with, I hear it all the time now, but it's not bothersome. The loss of acuity in the speech range is where I have issues, and it does bother me. Wind noise, loud music, multiple loud voices, a noisy room - and I have trouble. I nod "yes" a lot, even though I haven't a clue what was said to me. Embarrassing! But Shovel, you're right, we learn to compensate.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  2. #5327
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Russound? I used to be a dealer.
    Really? Am I talking to two (other) audiophiles, Shovel and Hermes?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  3. #5328
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I used to own two different sound contracting businesses. With the first I sold and installed commercial sound systems in nightclubs. I also mixed monitor and FOH for bands, and was a nightclub and mobile DJ. I lost 30dB of hearing above 2KHz in my right ear from cuing records. With the second, which I just shut down two years ago (guess what took it's place), I sold and installed commercial and residential A/V systems, everything from corporate videoconferencing systems to multi-screen television systems for bars to whole house audio and video systems and home theater.

    I have a combination of natural and noise-induced hearing loss, but my acuity is still very good. The last time I tuned a room with an RTA, I was able to identify the general area where corrections needed to be made before I set up the analyzer.

  4. #5329
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    I used to own two different sound contracting businesses. With the first I sold and installed commercial sound systems in nightclubs. I also mixed monitor and FOH for bands, and was a nightclub and mobile DJ. I lost 30dB of hearing above 2KHz in my right ear from cuing records. With the second, which I just shut down two years ago (guess what took it's place), I sold and installed commercial and residential A/V systems, everything from corporate videoconferencing systems to multi-screen television systems for bars to whole house audio and video systems and home theater.

    I have a combination of natural and noise-induced hearing loss, but my acuity is still very good. The last time I tuned a room with an RTA, I was able to identify the general area where corrections needed to be made before I set up the analyzer.
    I mixed FOH for several off Broadway touring shows and some rock shows in the mid seventies. Like you, I used to be able to identify and call frequencies when we were tuning the monitor system on stage. I was pretty good with the FOH system, too, WITHOUT an RTA! That was using a 1/3 octave UREI equalizer. I went into the military to learn to fly right after that, because my parents felt that show business was not a respectable career for a daughter of theirs (aviation is??). Now, I just do occasional recording for local classical ensembles, choral groups, and the occasional high school student needing a CD for college. It sort of keeps my hand in it and keeps my "need for gear" a little bit sated. I haven't updated my home system in ages. I have melded my reference monitor system with my home system, and in the process, I slimmed down some gear. I still have my AI Modulus 2 preamp (tubes, of course), my Perreaux PMF-2150B, my ancient Velodyne ULD-15, my VPI Scout, and my Madisound sourced Scan Speak two-way reference monitors. I use a Mytek Stereo96 DAC with a Sony DVD player as the transport. I have a Marantz 8250 SACD player, but the transport is super finicky and I rarely use it. I have a pair of Legacy Classics, as well, that I have "permanently" loaned to a choral director friend of mine. I at least know where they are!

    I don't know that I'd try to tune a room by ear now. I did do the install of the stereo in my Subaru, and I had to EQ that. I did it by ear, and it's not bad. No, I don't fudge towards "bright", even with my hearing loss. Artificial, hyped or spitty high frequencies in a sound system still drive me to drink! I hear them and hate them!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  5. #5330
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Russound? I used to be a dealer.
    Yes. Dennon AV. I can only play the same music in eac room. With the new Sonos syste and more equipment I could play different music in each room.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #5331
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Audiophile. Maybe.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  7. #5332
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Audiophile. Maybe.
    Musician, I know!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  8. #5333
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Yes. Dennon AV. I can only play the same music in eac room. With the new Sonos syste and more equipment I could play different music in each room.
    The C series can do that too, but the Sonos probably superceded it. Stuff changes quickly. Russound is abnormally difficult to program. It's a PITA. Customers hated going through the cut sheet as much as I hated coming back again and again for changes.

  9. #5334
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    I mixed FOH for several off Broadway touring shows and some rock shows in the mid seventies. Like you, I used to be able to identify and call frequencies when we were tuning the monitor system on stage. I was pretty good with the FOH system, too, WITHOUT an RTA! That was using a 1/3 octave UREI equalizer. I went into the military to learn to fly right after that, because my parents felt that show business was not a respectable career for a daughter of theirs (aviation is??). Now, I just do occasional recording for local classical ensembles, choral groups, and the occasional high school student needing a CD for college. It sort of keeps my hand in it and keeps my "need for gear" a little bit sated. I haven't updated my home system in ages. I have melded my reference monitor system with my home system, and in the process, I slimmed down some gear. I still have my AI Modulus 2 preamp (tubes, of course), my Perreaux PMF-2150B, my ancient Velodyne ULD-15, my VPI Scout, and my Madisound sourced Scan Speak two-way reference monitors. I use a Mytek Stereo96 DAC with a Sony DVD player as the transport. I have a Marantz 8250 SACD player, but the transport is super finicky and I rarely use it. I have a pair of Legacy Classics, as well, that I have "permanently" loaned to a choral director friend of mine. I at least know where they are!

    I don't know that I'd try to tune a room by ear now. I did do the install of the stereo in my Subaru, and I had to EQ that. I did it by ear, and it's not bad. No, I don't fudge towards "bright", even with my hearing loss. Artificial, hyped or spitty high frequencies in a sound system still drive me to drink! I hear them and hate them!
    Nice stuff. Your ears are similar to mine. I can't stand overly bright systems or overly processed systems, residential or commercial. Drives me nuts.

    My home theater is very modest. 67" Samsung DLP, HK digital receiver, Samsung Blu-Ray player, JBL HT series in-wall surrounds, JBL center channel and sub, and DirectTV HD DVR. The room is pretty good for video and sound, except for an annoying spring in one of the windows which rattles at high volumes in the 25Hz range.

    In my truck I installed a Kenwood Excelon double DIN receiver, with Bluetooth, Sirius XM, HD Radio, wheel control, and GPS modules, Rainbow components front and rear powered by an Eclipse XA4000, a custom made underseat sub enclosure with two Diamond Audio D6 subs powered by a Rockford Fosgate T1500bd, and a PPI DSP processor which handles all of the crossovers, EQ, and time delay. It's tuned for SQ not bumpity bump, about 2KW worth. It will "only" hit 105dB.

  10. #5335
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I made a concession to my wife that the house would not have any visible wires or speakers. So I mounted my plasma TV on the wall and put on side mounted speaks on the TV to integrate it into the room. My rear speakers are ceiling mounted and I have a power subwoofer under the table next to the sofa. I can control the rear speakers from the Russound and there is an automatic switch that gives priority to the Dennon over the Russound when watching a movie with surround sound.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #5336
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Nice stuff. Your ears are similar to mine. I can't stand overly bright systems or overly processed systems, residential or commercial. Drives me nuts.

    My home theater is very modest. 67" Samsung DLP, HK digital receiver, Samsung Blu-Ray player, JBL HT series in-wall surrounds, JBL center channel and sub, and DirectTV HD DVR. The room is pretty good for video and sound, except for an annoying spring in one of the windows which rattles at high volumes in the 25Hz range.

    In my truck I installed a Kenwood Excelon double DIN receiver, with Bluetooth, Sirius XM, HD Radio, wheel control, and GPS modules, Rainbow components front and rear powered by an Eclipse XA4000, a custom made underseat sub enclosure with two Diamond Audio D6 subs powered by a Rockford Fosgate T1500bd, and a PPI DSP processor which handles all of the crossovers, EQ, and time delay. It's tuned for SQ not bumpity bump, about 2KW worth. It will "only" hit 105dB.
    Nice, nice, nice!!!

    I discovered a long time ago that those of us with an audio engineering bent hear things very similarly. Or, at least our subjective opinion seems to run along the same lines. The absolute sound? I gave up on that a long time ago, even in live venues with acoustic instruments. There is no reference, unless you're outdoors and you hear a thunderstorm - then, you can ask about the variables affecting what you heard, "humidity, temperature...yada, yada". It was fun chasing the absolute sound, but I settled for what I liked, finally, after many years.

    My HT is an old LG 42 inch plasma display (branded Hyundai, sold by Wal Mart), a Pioneer SX-25 AVR, Oppo BD-83 blu-ray, Pioneer CLP-503 (I think) laser disc, Apple TV, DirecTv receiver, Hsu 12V sub, original Smaller Advents for the rear surrounds, and I totally forget what the center channel and front mains are. It's not bad, it can get cleanly loud, but I do need a better video display. It's only capable of 1080i (and I question that).

    I put a Pioneer AVH-P4400BH DVD receiver in the car, driving an old school Soundstream D-50 2 channel amp for the front speakers (love the sound of that MOSFET amp). The HU drives the rear speakers. (Yes, I bypassed the parking brake). The front speakers are Infinity Reference 6030cs components (not biamped) in the front doors, and Reference 6035's in the rear doors. The sub is a Sound Ordinance B-8PTD under the drivers seat. I mass loaded the crap out of the doors to get the rattles out and that also tightened up the lower mids. There is barrier material under the door cards to get as tight a seal as I could, too. I don't know how loud it will go, but it's enough. I used the DSP in the HU for EQ, and it works pretty well. Like you, I was going for SQ, and it's indeed very clean. Also under 2K!

    This is different than cycling. This is a deep part of me, it just IS.
    Last edited by sarals; 01-09-13 at 11:28 PM.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  12. #5337
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I made a concession to my wife that the house would not have any visible wires or speakers. So I mounted my plasma TV on the wall and put on side mounted speaks on the TV to integrate it into the room. My rear speakers are ceiling mounted and I have a power subwoofer under the table next to the sofa. I can control the rear speakers from the Russound and there is an automatic switch that gives priority to the Dennon over the Russound when watching a movie with surround sound.
    I appreciate aesthetics, too, Hermes. There is nothing nicer looking than a clean install! How big is the room?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  13. #5338
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    15X21 with the TV on the long wall.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #5339
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Man, you've got some nice stuff, Sara.

    That D-50 is a great amp, way underrated, but it slurps current. I went full digital with the Eclipse and the RF to save on power draw. I have a high capacity battery under the hood, but even so, it will only run the system for 20 minutes without the engine on. I did not want to add batteries in the trunk. That's valuable space.

  15. #5340
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Man, you've got some nice stuff, Sara.

    That D-50 is a great amp, way underrated, but it slurps current. I went full digital with the Eclipse and the RF to save on power draw. I have a high capacity battery under the hood, but even so, it will only run the system for 20 minutes without the engine on. I did not want to add batteries in the trunk. That's valuable space.
    Thanks! Yes, the old school Soundstreams were noted for their, ummm, inefficiencies - but they sound wonderful (Nelson Pass, right?). I just hope it works for a long time to come. Their failure rate was high. +1 on the extra battery. I power the system down within a minute or two of stopping the engine.

    You're liking that PPI DSP piece? Your sub enclosure sounds intriguing - 8" drivers, those? What's the loading on the cabinet? Ported, sealed, bandpass?

    Hermes - that's BIG room! I'd bet the sound in there is nice. Is your piano in that room?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  16. #5341
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    No, my piano is in the living room.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  17. #5342
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    You're liking that PPI DSP piece? Your sub enclosure sounds intriguing - 8" drivers, those? What's the loading on the cabinet? Ported, sealed, bandpass?
    I'll take a picture of it. It fits under the rear bench seat and takes all of the space. Sealed cabinet. My amp racks are behind the seat. The drivers are DA D6 10" dual coil 4 ohm, so I have them wired parallel-parallel to show a 1 ohm load to the sub amp. It is most efficient that way.

    The PPI unit was one of the first external DSP's available. This was before DSP's were inside the high end HU's. As such, it does A/D-processing-D/A, which introduces noise that is audible with the system idle. That's the price I had to pay. The processing is excellent, very flexible and adaptable across the six channels. The time delay works wonders in both timing the big slow subs in the back with the components up front, and for setting the image height and center.

    As part of the install, I tore out the entire interior, seats, carpets, everything, and installed dampening material on every surface. The sub area has three layers, the doors have two, and the floor and roof forward of the back seat have one.

    The system has plenty of flaws, and I hear every one of them, but it definitely was worth the effort and expense. There's nothing like tooling down the highway with the windows and the sunroof open on the way to a race with the music blasting and beaing able to hear everything nice and crisp.
    Last edited by shovelhd; 01-10-13 at 10:54 AM.

  18. #5343
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    No, my piano is in the living room.
    Ahhh, so you have a dedicated home theater room. I wish I had that kind of space! It's always been a dream of mine. I take it the living room is the larger room?
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  19. #5344
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    I'll take a picture of it. It fits under the rear bench seat and takes all of the space. Sealed cabinet. My amp racks are behind the seat. The drivers are DA D6 10" dual coil 4 ohm, so I have them wired parallel-parallel to show a 1 ohm load to the sub amp. It is most efficient that way.

    The PPI unit was one of the first external DSP's available. This was before DSP's were inside the high end HU's. As such, it does A/D-processing-D/A, which introduces noise that is audible with the system idle. That's the price I had to pay. The processing is excellent, very flexible and adaptable across the six channels. The time delay works wonders in both timing the big slow subs in the back with the components up front, and for setting the image height and center.

    As part of the install, I tore out the entire interior, seats, carpets, everything, and installed dampening material on every surface. The sub area has three layers, the doors have two, and the floor and roof forward of the back seat have one.

    The system has plenty of flaws, and I hear every one of them, but it definitely was worth the effort and expense. There's nothing like tooling down the highway with the windows and the sunroof open on the way to a race with the music blasting and beaing able to hear everything nice and crisp.
    Oh, I want to see the picture! I still shudder when I read of "1 ohm loads", or even 2 ohm. I used to work with power amplifiers in pro audio way back when that were very unhappy driving a 4 ohm load, so that's where my "basis" lies.

    I do like what you've been able to do with the PPI. Very nice! If you're like me, you probably settle for noise that will be masked by road noise, although from what you describe with your damping material, I would think your truck is very quiet. Shovel, it HAS to be a really fantastic sounding system you put in there!

    I'm like you in that I hear every flaw in my Subaru's system - "oh, I wish I'd paid more attention to that resonance, oh, I wish I'd added more damping material to that door, oh, I wish I'd routed that signal cable a little differently...". You know! But, that's okay, because I don't listen critically in the car. That said, I need (like you) a clean sound, and like you, going to the races with Pandora on (or a CD) always has me smiling when I get to the venue!

    You said the PPI allows for height? Way cool! I did that with tweeter placement. Infinity doesn't publish the specs for the crossover, but it's fairly low, so I thought that getting the tweeters near ear height should render a stable image. And, they do. I don't expect reference quality sound from a car stereo, there are just too many variables and too much environmental interference, but I am very happy with this install. I have the fader set to bias towards the front, and the pan is dead center, and with that, I have an excellent, almost binaural, image. That little SO sub does a very good job of fleshing out most of the bottom octave, enough to where it is supported. The system has a nice balance from top to bottom as a result.

    I did a simple placement for the D-50 and sub. The D-50 is under the front passenger seat, held in place with velcro on it's bottom, and the SO fills the space under the driver seat, also held in place with velcro. They don't move! All of the cabling runs under the center console. Because I did it that way, and I put nothing behind the rear seats, I was able to leave the carpet intact. That made the install a little easier, although pulling the door cards and installing the Dynamat (and barrier material) gave me more than a few cuts and bruises on my hands and forearms!
    Last edited by sarals; 01-10-13 at 11:32 AM.
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  20. #5345
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Here's a tweeter:



    And the sub:



    These pictures were taken when the system was still beng tuned. I hadn't dressed the cabling for the amp or the sub just yet.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  21. #5346
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Could we get any further afield of cycling?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  22. #5347
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    I'll allow it. Proceed.

  23. #5348
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    Got fitted for the new speedsuit today. Small top, large bottom, medium leg cuffs.

  24. #5349
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    What is a speedsuit? I know what a skinsuit is, and it does not have a top and bottom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    What is a speedsuit? I know what a skinsuit is, and it does not have a top and bottom.
    One piece high tech fabric TT suit. The standard size doesn't come close to fitting me so they are going to build a custom one.

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