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Masters Racing (All Disciplines) Race on the track or road or on your mountainbike in the Masters Category? Want to talk tactics, strategy and training with your peers?

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Old 03-21-13, 05:12 PM   #5901
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TAKE. A. PULL.
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Old 03-25-13, 05:47 AM   #5902
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Swiped from another forum. This is what I want to be doing when I am 68 years old.

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Old 03-25-13, 05:54 AM   #5903
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I'll be huffing glue, to make up for my misspent youth training.

btw, that's two ice pick music. One for each ear.
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Old 03-25-13, 06:01 AM   #5904
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Swiped from another forum. This is what I want to be doing when I am 68 years old.

Routes that are almost all downhill are nice, especially with a 30 lb. fanny pack. Also need to make sure the roads and villages are all empty, as in this video.

Despite the nits I'm picking, it looks like a beautiful place to ride.
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Old 03-25-13, 06:16 AM   #5905
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This is what I want to be doing when I am 68 years old.
Shoot, why wait? I'd like to be doing that this afternoon.
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Old 03-25-13, 06:53 AM   #5906
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Shoot, why wait? I'd like to be doing that this afternoon.
I agree. And, barring accidents, that is what I'll be doing when I'm 68. Only ten years to go, and as everyone knows, 70 is the new 50.
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Old 03-25-13, 11:11 AM   #5907
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Okay, so I'm feeling like my front is a touch "light", from handling standpoint. It slid a couple of inches on one of the turns Saturday, and came off the ground in another turn that had a concrete 'rain channel', for want of a better term. Neither was that big a deal, but there is a fine line between the front wheel slipping a little then catching, and slipping all the way out. Does this indicate that maybe my fore-aft balance is off? That I might need to get the weight forward more, either by moving the saddle up of shifting my weight as I corner. It could very well be resulting from the fact that my cornering just isn't as assertive right now. I'm not 'diving in', maybe not weighting the inside bar enough, nor getting my body leaned more than the bike.

Um, I think I may have just answered my own question...
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Old 03-25-13, 11:19 AM   #5908
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It could be either one or the other or a combination. Very tough to say. You made changes and then got injured. Try and separate the two. Are you well enough to know if you are neutral on the bike? Do you feel like you are fighting the bike in the turns? You shouldn't have to shift your weight much in order to corner hard.
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Old 03-25-13, 11:31 AM   #5909
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Check the geometry between old and new. Assume stem/bar is the same?
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Old 03-25-13, 11:43 AM   #5910
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Things are setup the same as the old frame, but there were the changes the Faster fitter made: Swapped the bars and saddle, and moved the saddle back just a touch. I'm both lower and a tad more stretched. Plus, this frame is certainly stiffer. This was the first crit on a technical course since those changes, although the little slide was in a fast corner, not a tight one. Lots of variables, complicated by the fact that I -am- riding a bit less assertively. Also by the fact that technical courses aren't common for us, so comparison is difficult. For Sunday, I used less tire pressure (105r 100f), but that wasn't needed because the course was wide open with easy turns.

Edit: And when I slid, I had reduced the radius towards the end of the corner to stay in a draft... the little extra force broke the front free.
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Old 03-25-13, 11:46 AM   #5911
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Moving the saddle back will shift the CG rearward more than a "face value" equation and stretching out is going to open up your arm angle which accentuates the balance shift.
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Old 03-25-13, 11:47 AM   #5912
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That sounds like a lot of change. Was it before or after the crash?
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Old 03-25-13, 11:55 AM   #5913
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It could be either one or the other or a combination. Very tough to say. You made changes and then got injured. Try and separate the two. Are you well enough to know if you are neutral on the bike? Do you feel like you are fighting the bike in the turns? You shouldn't have to shift your weight much in order to corner hard.
It's tough for me to know, Shovel, because I don't have as clear a 'baseline' as you (and others) do. I will reach point in my development when I suddenly realize what you've been talking about on a given topic. I maybe thought I knew, but I didn't, really, because I hadn't gotten to where I could recognize subtle differences, or the effects different factors have. "Quick handling" was one of those factors. I hadn't seen the need until I raced enough crits and got in the mix, and saw what I needed to be able to do. So was lateral stiffness. I hadn't ridden a truly stiff bike, so I just didn't know what it felt like. Now I do.

I talk a lot about how steep the racing learning curve is when you are trying to climb it quickly. This area is yet another example of that. Bike handling separates the men from the boys every bit as much as power, and it is hard to learn quickly, because a lot of can't be practiced solo. Throw in the subtle impacts of geometry and setup, and it becomes a complex issue that widens the gap between the great racers and the 'participants'.

Edit: To change affect to effects before Ex commented.

Last edited by AzTallRider; 03-25-13 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 03-25-13, 11:56 AM   #5914
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That sounds like a lot of change. Was it before or after the crash?
Before. Fitting was December 28; crash was January 26.
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Old 03-25-13, 12:10 PM   #5915
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To give a touch more detail on the changes: The new bars put my hands a bit further forward when in the drops, and rotate them so my elbows are lower. Hence my body is lower as well. Less stiff-arm. They are also narrower. Old ones were carbon and damaged from my prior frame falling off the car rack. New ones are alloy, so they survived the January crash. The saddle is wider and firmer, with the goal of locking my hips in more to keep me from rocking. As Ex noticed in SoCal, I still do rock a bit, but not nearly as much. If I make sure I'm back in the saddle, I rock less. But I tend to slide forward, especially in our new super-slippery Castelli kits. In the old kit, I stay back easier. Already tilted the saddle nose up a touch, and don't think I can increase that. Perhaps moving the saddle forward (and up of course) would eliminate the sliding - would have to try it to see.

My gut says that if I ride this configuration the way I was riding at the end of last season, the handling will be fine. But my gut isn't infallible.
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Old 03-25-13, 12:15 PM   #5916
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AZT, don't apologize for being a relatively new racer. You will learn. It's OK to say you don't really know. Looking at the dates you noted, it seems like you just don't have enough information. Too much change in too little time with too little to go by. Not only that, this is a complex topic with no simple answers unless something is completely out of whack. Look how long it has taken me to dial my new frame in. The differences in geometry are subtle. I have a lot of miles in my legs. I can feel a 1mm change in the saddle position, yet I still couldn't figure it out.

You say you have a weekly practice crit series. That is a good place to try some of this stuff out. Do a race or two to work on your bike handling. Once you feel comfortable in the turns then let us know how the bike feels. It should not be sliding out from underneath you. If it is, try and determine if it's you or your position on the bike. If you can purposefully throw more weight into the same turn at roughly the same speed and it sticks, then it's probably not you, it's the fit.

I also found myself needing more weight over the front end. It wasn't sliding, but it was too light. I know the feeling. It's not confidence inspiring. I ended up moving the saddle forward quite a bit and going to a longer stem. I got more power and better pedaling motion down below, and I am flatter and a lot more aero up top. Everybody is different, though.

Best of luck getting this sorted out.
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Old 03-25-13, 01:54 PM   #5917
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This looks like a nice place.
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Old 03-25-13, 01:56 PM   #5918
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This looks like a nice place.
It is. Pull up a chair. You race?
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Old 03-25-13, 02:17 PM   #5919
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Thank you chasm54. I do race, and I enjoy the heck out of it.
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Old 03-25-13, 03:47 PM   #5920
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AZT, don't apologize for being a relatively new racer. You will learn. It's OK to say you don't really know.
I never hesitate to say I don't know something, and I feel no need whatsoever to apologize for my relative lack of experience. Lack of experience or ignorance is only damnable if you choose not to correct it. I'd much rather come off as a total newb, and then prove myself better than that on the course, than the reverse. So if I feel I'm not cornering the way I want to corner, I'm going to point it out, give myself a hard time about it, and do whatever I need to do in order to improve. I had gotten so I was moving up a lot in corners, even in Masters. I've slid back from that, and I feel it's a result of being rusty (crashed just when the crit's were starting up and missed several), trying to sort out how to "aggressively protect my front wheel" while also riding assertively, and maybe some configuration-related handling issues. Tall geometries tend to push you back on the bike. I radically adjusted for that by riding with my saddle slammed forward. Fitter felt that was scrunching me up and going longer than 140 on the stem would likely be bad. So he moved me back a touch. Seems to work well except maybe in really hard cornering.

I think I need to do some cornering in different positions to see what it does to that "light front end" feel - hopefully without actually sliding out. Light front end screams "understeer", and that is not where you want to be in a crit. And come to think of it, a couple of other times I found myself saying "whoa" and really putting some weight on the inside bar to hold the corner, when others weren't having any difficulty. Not good!
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Old 03-25-13, 03:49 PM   #5921
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LAJ, if you are one of those CO climbers that periodically comes down to the low altitudes to kick flatlander asses, then please just go away!
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Old 03-25-13, 03:57 PM   #5922
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Welcome LAJ. Nice to see you here. LAJ races on a team sponsored by the guy who built my carbon clinchers. Used to be a long distance guy.
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Old 03-25-13, 04:03 PM   #5923
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I wish that were the case, AZT. Second year at it, but I am trying a different approach this year. Last year, I rode around bike racing courses quickly, with people that looked like they were racing. This year I intend to join the fray.
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Old 03-25-13, 04:05 PM   #5924
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Thank you very much, shovelhd. To be honest, until the move thread was started, I completely forgot about this area. I am thrilled it was rediscovered.
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Old 03-25-13, 04:41 PM   #5925
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Well, if you are old and slow, you are certainly welcome here - so welcome!
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