gsteinb

I think AzT owned it being a knock and likened it to me liking the way I post in the 33 (which seemed liked a knock as well). Perhaps everyone is so old in here all the knocking is hoping something hits wood and we all make it through the night.

AzTallRider

I felt you were calling me elitist because I don't believe golf achievement requires athletic ability/discipline. My reference to the 33 is because, well, there are frankly few places as elitist. Ignorance is often equated with a lack of intelligence in the 33, and both are quickly and repeatedly 'knocked', often nastily. I don't see where judging the athleticism required to golf is elitist, and felt your judging me to be elitist was far more, for wont of a better word 'elitist'. And here I go putting it through another cycle...

Here in Arizona, a great number of people golf, some very well, and very few of them could be confused with athletes. That doesn't make them less of a person, or denigrate them, any more than saying I'm tall denigrates me. Whether something is harshly critical, or elitist, has much to do with what is behind the words - something that isn't always apparent in brief forum posts. Just as with the use of "The N-Word" (in the news again recently) it matters who said it, and also what they intended.

AzTallRider

I'm wondering if Kevin Susco is related to the Joe Susco who kicks ass a lot here in AZ? I think Joe is in his 30's, and climbs like a demon from hell.

gsteinb

And you don't think placing yourself above the 33, by repeatedly calling it (as silly as it may be) elitist as a tad bit judgmental? Presumably you like ex and shovel, both 33 regulars. In fact two of the more prolific posters. You seem to have some issue with me as a 33 elitist. Of course you don't know anything about me. It all strikes me as a bit arbitrary and doesn't make this particular corner of BF any more welcoming than any other. So goes the internet. Forest and trees and things like that. I see things different than you. I don't think that's a bad thing. Do you think Andy Schleck see you or me as an athlete? All things are relative.

shovelhd

Is there such a thing as competitive jackhammering? Does it take precision skills to cut the perfect line corner after corner? I'm not sure the average bridge re-decker gives a crap about that. Do you realize that these races are often won by similar hair-widths as bike racing? I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just making a point.

gsteinb

What of lumberjack competitions?

Paul Smith's college has a nationally ranked woodsmen team.

shovelhd

What is it about the 33 that comes off as elitist? I'm not sure I understand. There are some big personalities but in general the vast majority are helpful.

gsteinb

I blame UMD

shovelhd

I thought you would get banned for using those three letters together.

gsteinb

I think it's the all caps that's the secret end around.

Allegheny Jet

Those guys are kick ass hard. Mel Lentz is my all time favorite. Rick Halverson on the other hand was able to utilize his one keg beer belly effectively in the hot saw competition earning multiple world champs.

AzTallRider

I don't consider myself 'above' the 33; I just have a different approach than that used by many posters there, as I see no need to intentionally denigrate newcomers who are merely looking for insight into a difficult to master sport. IMO, we want to encourage participation and grow the sport, and I would think that would also be a goal of the forum. I also thought it ironic that someone who, as a mod bears some responsibility for the tone of that forum, would call me a tiresome elitist because I don't believe golfers need to be athletes to succeed in their sport. Pot and kettle, so to speak. I also don't believe judgmental and elitist are one and the same. I can judge the athletic requirements of golf without passing judgement on the individuals, and also without placing myself above them. I know you well enough to know you understand that.

Look. Some things require judgement, while others are fact. Ex has done the best job of placing this issue in a more factual context. Whether Andy Schleck believes either of us is an athlete is besides the point, when then the facts are that you need to be an athlete to succeed in cycling. It's not a judgement thing, and the fact that some golfer might have innate untapped athletic ability that would enable him to win the TdF, should he dedicate himself to that, is totally beside the point. The point is that he doesn't need that ability to succeed in golf, and many of those who do succeed are not even fit, let alone athletes.

AzTallRider

Big personalities are one thing. Calling people idiots because they may not know as much about a topic (as happened not that long ago to Sara) is the epitome (tome, heh heh) of elitism. The message is often "I know more than you do, so either shut up or go away". I started a thread on key racing skills that was immediately parodied. My thread ended up with several pages of what many considered to be valuable information. Someone less persistent than I am would have just gone away, or never bothered to start the thread and risk the ridicule.

gsteinb

Actually I said elitism is tiresome. I also said in any form. Which would include a fairly wide swath of circumstances. Including the angle I was actually referring to which for the record is the whole 'we're cyclists we're better than golfer thing (or insert sport)' which ceaselessly goes on. This is one of just a myriad of stupid things people can do with their time. We may like it, but even the best of us suck at it.

You've also been poking at me (seemingly personally) for a long time with your 33 comments, so really you're due for some back from time to time. As Shovel pointed out the 33 by and large is a helpful and encouraging place. You may not find it to be so, but that simply doesn't make it not be the case. Again, to wit, you find Ex helpful. He's prolific. Whether you like me or hate me I do spend a great deal of time trying to help folks out there as does Shovel. If you honestly believe the clickiness in this forum is any better (or any other forum) I promise you you're mistaken.

gsteinb

yeah and parody threads go on in the road forum and all other forums. as you were informed then report the thread and it'll get taken care of. they are frowned upon and usually immediately locked. you have an issue of taking a single action and painting all folks with that brush. problem is again, coach ex is good, gary is bad, shovel --depends on the day of the week...yet we're all in the same forum doing the same thing.

Allegheny Jet

I can't speak about the 33 since I don't go there anymore and never felt that I belonged there. I will state my opinion of an athlete. Having been a collegete participant in two sports, played numerous sports both before college and through middle age, and coached HS sports for 6 years I've developed my take. In my opinion to be an athlete in a recognized sport one needs to have talent, opportunity and commitment/desire. Someone doing that sport may have limited success with two of the three but that would be short lived as they rise through the levels of completion.

We all have different takes.

nacler22

Holy crap. I go away for a couple months, and come back to a pissing contest in the only part of BF that I give a @#$% about.

Start flying right, or I"ll post a picture of my new bruise............... trust me, you don't want me to do it.

shovelhd

I don't remember the thread you are referring to as I normally just read subscribed threads and only every once in a while go back and see the ones I missed. I just don't agree that the place is elitist. Tough at times, yes, and for good reason. That's the nature of the sport. If some newbie arrogantly proclaims themselves to be too lazy to read through the plethora of information that could easily answer their question which has been asked a thousand times already, that's going to poke the bear. As it should. Maybe that comes off as elitism. I tend to view it as peer pressure to do things the right way. Respect the sport and those that achieved success in it. Put as much effort into learning about the sport from those who know it well. Stop blaming others. Learn from your mistakes. That kind of thing. I see it in the clinics every spring so it's not just a forum thing.

shovelhd

WTF are you implying???

AzTallRider

I only read and post here and in the 33, so I wouldn't know about parody posts elsewhere. In any event, I reported it, and it went poof. And I'm not painting the whole with the same brush. Some folks are able to provide the benefit of their wisdom without being abrasive; others are not. I prefer the former, and react negatively to the latter. THe general tone of the 33 leans towards the latter, which in turns leads to defensive attitudes when a newcomer dares to ask for advice, which propagates the cycle.

But hey, it is what it is. Nobody is going to change based on my preferences, so I read the threads I think might actually have information in them, and respond if I have something to contribute, or if someone pisses me off.

AzTallRider

I know I reacted to what I believed was poor treatment by you of Sara in that old thread, but have not poked at you intentionally since then. Sara is someone who does her homework (and her training) and contributes to the forum. She is a friend of mine, and I'm going to defend my friends, especially when they are 'in the right'.

Cleave

OK, so the train went off the tracks and then derailed.

My wife and son like to trash talk about sports and which participants are athletes and which are not. My son is traditional sports nut and claims to hate bicycle racing and motorsports (my favorite sports). Regardless, who is an athlete and who is not is certainly in the eye of the beholder in my book.

Some people can be overweight or have poor cardiovascular fitness but they are genetically or otherwise gifted. Are they still athletes?

I try my best despite my lack of talent and lack of genetic propensity for endurance sports. This is based on my parents who did not participate in sports very much. Have I mentioned that my mother never learned to ride a bike?

I believe that Vance was primarily poking fun at some notorious professional athletes who obviously, if they could shed a few pounds, perhaps perform even better than they do now.

Yes, there are some overweight guys in the Masters peloton in SoCal and they can hang in a criterium just as well as I can. However, they aren't winning either. The important thing is that they are exercising and are healthier than they would be otherwise.

The best part of cycling, IMHO, is that a bicycle is an inanimate object that doesn't "care" which rider is on it. The bicycle gives back (propels you) based on what you put into it. You can stroll, cruise, or race on a bicycle. The bicycle can't care about the rider. The rider can care about the bike. Of course, some people are artists on a bike and can make sing in ways that others cannot, but that doesn't make one person better or more worthy of cycling than the other.

I'll close with something I heard at a bicycle advocacy conference last year, "If you hold a community meeting on cycling and the audience is mostly people wearing Lycra, you failed." The point is that what's most important is that more people on bikes, of any kind, really does mean a healthier country in numerous ways.

gsteinb

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I asure you you're mistaken (I actually reread the particular thread I imagine you reference) and rather than try and be robin hood you perhaps should try the PM function. Since folks taught you where the report button maybe they can show you how to use that to clear up misunderstandings. Keep in mind I also wasn't a moderator then, and most the folks here that you like fell along the same lines in that particular instance with the OP.

I do not do the things you ascribe to me.

Let me be clear: I find your persistent mischaracterizations of me to be offensive. It has colored the way I view you. I personally find that unfortunate because we share friends. In the end it's irrelevant, but you should try and open to the perspective that some things in the world might not actually be as contentious as they seem to you.

All said I need to be done with this as we've been up with a sick pooch and I have to go tend to that.

gsteinb

I spent yesterday scrubbing and scrapping mineral build up out of toilets. Last night our dog had a reaction to her heart worm meds and had the runs all night. This morning I'm posting on BF.

My life is trending in a particular direction.

AzTallRider

Perhaps you re-read the wrong thread. In the one I referenced, you were a mod, and ended up joking about having to give yourself points or some such. In any event, that's the past. I haven't been poking at you in the 33... I have hardly been posting in the 33 at all. One of us is indeed confused, but it isn't me.