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  1. #76
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclinfool View Post
    With my big event in mid June I am more in a mode of base prep. Still loosing weight at a very slow pace but on track. Spin classes for aerobic fitness and skiing for some cross training leg strength and endurance and core strength training. My road riding is 3 months away so the key now is maintaining strength and loosing about 15 more lbs, that will put me at a good climbing weight and adequate strength.

    Observation: in my spin classes I am not able to achieve the heart rates I hit when on the road even though the perceived effort is there (165 is about the max I can hit in spin, 190 is Z5 on the road). I asked the PT about this and she was surprised that I was not getting higher heart rates (except my stated Z5 of 190 scared her), after some discussion the thought was that the intervals in spin are just not long enough to sufficiently elevate my heart rate due to the type of riding I am conditioned for. Any thoughts?

    What was the temp when you hit 190? I've exceeded my MHR when it was really hot, over 95 degrees, even though I don't think the effort was any harder than the normal max.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  2. #77
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I am not sure that spin class and riding outside is an apples to apples comparison. The spin bike is fixed gear with a huge flywheel and there is no balance component. For me, HR is directly proportional to spin. If I spin faster for the same power, my HR goes up. Perceived effort on the spin bike will be slightly different than the road bike. Also, the temperature and humidity of a spin class is quite different than riding outside. I am trying to paint a picture of a lot of variables that affect HR that are different between indoor riding and outside.

    Generally, my HR is lower on the trainer than outdoors and perceived effort is greater to produce the same power. My coach and I have debated this issue and this year he conceded that one can consider about 10% more effort to produce the same power on a trainer than outside. I think it was due to the fact that he had trouble doing z4 100 rpm efforts on the trainer.

    My take away is not to worry about it and make the best of indoor riding. Work on spin, z2/z3 with some z4 if you can do it. Work on weight control since it is the most important metric to hill climbing that is completely within your control. Good luck.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  3. #78
    gone ride'n cyclinfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    What was the temp when you hit 190? I've exceeded my MHR when it was really hot, over 95 degrees, even though I don't think the effort was any harder than the normal max.
    I usually don't bother with the HRM by the time the weather turns hot, and hot here is anything over 85 degrees. My MHR trials usually occur in the low 70s when I am not fatigued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I am not sure that spin class and riding outside is an apples to apples comparison. The spin bike is fixed gear with a huge flywheel and there is no balance component. For me, HR is directly proportional to spin. If I spin faster for the same power, my HR goes up. Perceived effort on the spin bike will be slightly different than the road bike. Also, the temperature and humidity of a spin class is quite different than riding outside. I am trying to paint a picture of a lot of variables that affect HR that are different between indoor riding and outside.

    Generally, my HR is lower on the trainer than outdoors and perceived effort is greater to produce the same power. My coach and I have debated this issue and this year he conceded that one can consider about 10% more effort to produce the same power on a trainer than outside. I think it was due to the fact that he had trouble doing z4 100 rpm efforts on the trainer.

    My take away is not to worry about it and make the best of indoor riding. Work on spin, z2/z3 with some z4 if you can do it. Work on weight control since it is the most important metric to hill climbing that is completely within your control. Good luck.
    OK - good to hear I am not the only one. I find in the spin class I usually sweat a lot more (I miss the air flow although there are fans going). I actually agree with you, because you can cheat in spin class the effort may not be as much. When I hit MHR I usually am sprinting a climb, the bike speed is winding down and I am standing - trying desperately to keep on top of the gear, My breathing usually picks up a wheezing component as I am trying to suck in and push out as much air as possible. I never get close to that on the spin cycle. I may be standing, I may be breathing real hard but when it really starts to hurt my knee somehow knocks that little resistance knob to ease it off just a bit...
    "Of all the things I ever lost I miss my mind the most." Mark Twain
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  4. #79
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    After the sidewall cut on Sunday and picking glass out of the Michelin Pro Race 3s, I went shopping for GP 4000s. I purchased 3 from Biketiresdirect.com - $158 for 3 tires, 3 tubes, shipping and tax. And I did not have to pay a credit card fee which is sometimes charged by Euro sites. The Pro race 3s theoretically have better rolling resistance and handling but too many flats. Generally, I race on Vittoria Tubulars so this is no big loss. With power training, tires and equipment are close to not relevant but since most of my rides are for fun, I do not want to ride around on Armadillos. As I am writing this, I am sitting at Starbucks watching others eating copious amounts of calories while I drink a black coffee. I am not being self righteous just reporting the facts. The Starbucks pastry case has the calories listed in prominent lettering for each pastry - 460 calories for a blueberry scone. I am rambling back to work.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #80
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    The Starbucks pastry case has the calories listed in prominent lettering for each pastry - 460 calories for a blueberry scone. I am rambling back to work.
    My weakness is donuts. Once a week, on a day I drive to the office, I pick up donuts for the gang here. It's become a tradition, and I can't resist having at least one, which is the equivalent of about an hour of decent riding. :-/ But I'm still gradually drifting down a bit in weight. I'm starting to wonder what it will be like if the first didgit of my weight is a "1".

    And okay, no more whining from me about Coach insisting I avoid higher intensities. Yesterday I did trainer overgear intervals. 5 minutes z2 at ~90 cadence; 10 minutes z3 @ ~75 cadence. Repeat three times then warm down. I had to go to almost my tallest gear at first to get my HR to z3 at the lower cadence, but as time went on, I would shift back up a bit to maintain the HR. When I finished I was basically told to take my inside training outside from now on, because the whole house had too much of a 'manly fragrance'. No... those are not the words my wife used.

    This morning I took the hills on my commute overgeared, at a cadence of 60-70, with no consideration of HR. Again I was almost out of gears on the more gradual slope. If this doesn't create undue soreness, then next week I start hill repeats during my morning commute, once per week. I found a nice hill for them, just off my normal route.

    I just told coach that, while I can't be sure without power data or some other metric, it -feels- like, fairly suddenly, I am generating more power without climbing into z3. I was moving at a clip today that I thought I would need to back off from to maintain z2, but kept checking and was staying comfortably within the zone. I hope it's true, and not just my imagination. If true, it means the long base rides are paying off, I'm becoming more efficient, or maybe even both!

    Good week so far; can't wait until Saturday, when I ride with the group for an hour, then go off on my own (z1-3) and get to at least 70 miles total.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #81
    gone ride'n cyclinfool's Avatar
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    This is kind of a wasted week for me, because of the snow the Wed AM spin class was canceled and the PM class today was canceled. Monday is a MLK day so classes canceled again, I will get three days on skis which I guess is good cross training, but one of those days will be as a timer for a slalom race, at least I'll burn calories standing around in the cold that day - I'll get a few runs in though. Weight is still inching down, all the weight gained over xmas is back off and I am steadily getting back on track for the end of April weight goal. I can resist the pastries but I have a hard time not having a hot chocolate with a shot of peppermint schnapps after a cold day on the slopes, and a cold beer goes down nice as well. 2.2lbs/in is the April goal - not a perfect climbers weight but not bad either. I have a good shot at getting there.
    "Of all the things I ever lost I miss my mind the most." Mark Twain
    If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

  7. #82
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I went to the gym and then did an indoor peloton with my wife with the trainers set up in the living room. 50 minutes featuring 3x10 z2. It felt harder than it was supposed to be. The work in the gym always takes something away from the bike.

    The weather was foggy, light rain and mid 50s. We are supposed to have good weather for the 3 day weekend.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  8. #83
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I've been gradually working through an article on a sports science site:

    Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training

    When I just read this part, I immediately thought of our track-star Hermes. I'm really surprised by the lower intensity training focus for even the short duration events.

    Individual and team pursuit athletes in cycling compete over about 4 min. The event appeals to sport scientists because the performance situation is highly controlled and amenable to accurate modeling of the variables on both sides of the power balance equation. Schumacher and Mueller (2002) demonstrated the validity of this approach in predicting “gold medal standards” for physiological testing and power output in track cycling. However, less obvious from the title was the detailed description of the training program followed by the German cyclists monitored in the study, ultimately earning a gold medal in Sydney in world-record time. These athletes trained to maintain 670 W in the lead position and ~450 W when following using a training program dominated by continuous low to moderate intensity cycling on the roads (29-35,000 km.y-1). In the 200 d preceding the Olympics, the athletes performed “low-intensity, high-mileage” training at 50-60 % of VO2max on ~140 d. Stage races took up another ~40 d. Specific track cycling at near competition intensities was performed on less than 20 d between March and September. In the ~110 d preceding the Olympic final, high-intensity interval track training was performed on only 6 d.

    Only 6 days of high-intensity training in the months preceding the Olympics!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #84
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I've been gradually working through an article on a sports science site:

    Intervals, Thresholds, and Long Slow Distance: the Role of Intensity and Duration in Endurance Training

    When I just read this part, I immediately thought of our track-star Hermes. I'm really surprised by the lower intensity training focus for even the short duration events.

    Individual and team pursuit athletes in cycling compete over about 4 min. The event appeals to sport scientists because the performance situation is highly controlled and amenable to accurate modeling of the variables on both sides of the power balance equation. Schumacher and Mueller (2002) demonstrated the validity of this approach in predicting “gold medal standards” for physiological testing and power output in track cycling. However, less obvious from the title was the detailed description of the training program followed by the German cyclists monitored in the study, ultimately earning a gold medal in Sydney in world-record time. These athletes trained to maintain 670 W in the lead position and ~450 W when following using a training program dominated by continuous low to moderate intensity cycling on the roads (29-35,000 km.y-1). In the 200 d preceding the Olympics, the athletes performed “low-intensity, high-mileage” training at 50-60 % of VO2max on ~140 d. Stage races took up another ~40 d. Specific track cycling at near competition intensities was performed on less than 20 d between March and September. In the ~110 d preceding the Olympic final, high-intensity interval track training was performed on only 6 d.

    Only 6 days of high-intensity training in the months preceding the Olympics!
    Great article... Thanks.

    Only in my dreams do I execute 670 watts off the front in team pursuit. In reality, my dreams are more like I am late to the race and miss the start time or something less exciting.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #85
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    All done with today's workout. 1.25 hrs on the rollers. First 15 min was build to Z3 then to overgear 53/12-13 for 48 minutes. During the overgear I rode 3 min on tops, 1.5 min OTS, 1.5 min tops, 3min drops, 3 min tops, 3 min no-hands then repeat the sequence 3 more times followed with 15 minute WD. Nice easy day then I needed to catch up on two days of resistance/core work. My training for the circus is proceeding very well.

    My new wheels with PT arrives on Monday.
    Last edited by Allegheny Jet; 01-14-11 at 05:22 PM.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  11. #86
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Did the dog survive the session, Jet?

    No word yet on my Quarq...
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  12. #87
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Did the dog survive the session, Jet?

    No word yet on my Quarq...
    She has since been trained to hang out under the pool table. She is a pretty smart little bugger.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  13. #88
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi,

    A lot of interesting info posted since I was last able peruse this thread.

    My training is not nearly as scientific as the rest of you. I started using a heart rate monitor in the early 1980s. I got tested for maximum heart rate about 9 years ago and I am still using that number, 173 bpm. I also review my training and race data regularly, but it is primarily a subjective view of heart rate vs. speed vs. distance vs. perceived effort. My heart rate zones look like this:



    A good friend of mine (and sort of relative) has been hounding me to get a coach for the past couple of years. I kind of view coaching like buying a power meter: I would have fewer excuses for my lack of speed if I had either.

    Seriously, I have fun with this sport and, believe it or not, I don't have a very competitive personality. I like riding fast and I love the experience of racing in a pack. Of course, I also like trying to make my way into a breakaway, but it's the experience of trying and hurting that motivates me. The few races that I've won, typically in a break, have been kind of anticlimactic. I guess I'm more of a person who enjoys the hunt more than the catch. To each, his or her own.

    In terms of modern training approaches I've read Chris Carmichael's book, The Time-Crunched Cyclist, and I own Joel Friel's book, The Cyclists' Training Bible, which I have only skimmed, not read cover-to-cover. I've also read a bunch of older (obsolete?) books on training. I use what I've learned about training to adjust my training along with, literally, how I feel. I base my training on science but I adjust it intuitively. Maybe I'll get more serious about my training after I retire.

    So, hopefully I can add some value to this sticky thread with some of what I know and have experienced.

    BTW, my first race of 2011 is tomorrow -- an 8 mile TT.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  14. #89
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Today was gorgeous outside, sunny and 65 warming up to 70. I did a 2 hour ride with a couple of z4 10 minute plus climbs.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  15. #90
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    2 hour trainer class today. I did everything the instructor suggested. However after the class I was talking to a Cat 2 racer who used to be on my team. We were comparing the hard times in the class and I realized that I need to HTFU and quit thinking its good enough to ride along with my buddies thinking I"m doing OK because that is what the instructor suggested for the A group. When the instructor says a 53/23-25 gear for the A group I need to use the 23 and face failure. We were also doing some 4 to 6 minute out of the saddle efforts followed by a seated overgear buildup interval where we were supposed to do the OTS @ 80 rpm and I was happy to continue at 72-74 rpm. Next time I'll HTFU and do anything to hold 78-80 rpm. There it is out there on the internetz and I have to live up to it!
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  16. #91
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Today was gorgeous outside, sunny and 65 warming up to 70. I did a 2 hour ride with a couple of z4 10 minute plus climbs.
    I get to ride a nice Z1-3, 2.5 hour ride tomorrow, however the high is supposed to be 20 degrees.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  17. #92
    gone ride'n cyclinfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I get to ride a nice Z1-3, 2.5 hour ride tomorrow, however the high is supposed to be 20 degrees.
    A balmy 20 as the high here as well tomorrow. However we have about 7 more inches of snow tonight. I will ski tomorrow.
    "Of all the things I ever lost I miss my mind the most." Mark Twain
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  18. #93
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclinfool View Post
    A balmy 20 as the high here as well tomorrow. However we have about 7 more inches of snow tonight. I will ski tomorrow.
    Ice fishing on Lake Erie is still a week away, then I'll have some grave internal conflicts to battle.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  19. #94
    Ride More seedsbelize's Avatar
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    I raced today, 60 km. My first road race ever. I was hoping to finish under 2.5 hrs, and came in just under 2. Avg. speed just under 20 mph. Didn't get dropped until shortly after the turn around, which was much later than I expected. We had a couple ringers in our over 50 group, uncategorized late arrivers, who turned up the heat with 30 km to go. Otherwise, I probably could have hung in much longer. My body doesn't know what a sprint is, never has, so it might be odd that I'm attempting to race. I wouldn't have completed that distance that fast on my own though.

  20. #95
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi,

    So I got to wear my new skinsuit today for my first race of the year; an 8.5 mile TT. I haven't done any significant Z4 efforts since I did a TT on this same course on Thanksgiving Day. So how did go? The skinsuit fits pretty well.

    I was actually only 2 seconds slower than Thanksgiving Day but it was extremely windy that day. Today I was 8th out 10 and the 10th place guy flatted.

    Anyway, I didn't expect to do well. My main purpose for racing was to start to wake up my body. Next week is two criteriums.

    BTW, it was a balmy 65°F in Corona, California, today.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
    "Real men wear pink."
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  21. #96
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    2 hour trainer class today. I did everything the instructor suggested. However after the class I was talking to a Cat 2 racer who used to be on my team. We were comparing the hard times in the class and I realized that I need to HTFU and quit thinking its good enough to ride along with my buddies thinking I"m doing OK because that is what the instructor suggested for the A group. When the instructor says a 53/23-25 gear for the A group I need to use the 23 and face failure. We were also doing some 4 to 6 minute out of the saddle efforts followed by a seated overgear buildup interval where we were supposed to do the OTS @ 80 rpm and I was happy to continue at 72-74 rpm. Next time I'll HTFU and do anything to hold 78-80 rpm. There it is out there on the internetz and I have to live up to it!
    We'll be checking on you!

    I had to swear at myself to keep my OLP going for each two-minute interval today, towards the end of a 1:15 pedal technique DVD session. I was yelling "Keep peddling! Smoother! Smoother! Faster!" Good thing nobody was around. I'm definitely working some new muscles

    One of my big goals is to increase that "determination factor". I want to be pushing all the way through.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #97
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seedsbelize View Post
    I raced today, 60 km. My first road race ever. I was hoping to finish under 2.5 hrs, and came in just under 2. Avg. speed just under 20 mph. Didn't get dropped until shortly after the turn around, which was much later than I expected. We had a couple ringers in our over 50 group, uncategorized late arrivers, who turned up the heat with 30 km to go. Otherwise, I probably could have hung in much longer. My body doesn't know what a sprint is, never has, so it might be odd that I'm attempting to race. I wouldn't have completed that distance that fast on my own though.
    Great job!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  23. #98
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    3 hour endurance ride with my wife that included 3 solid z3 efforts one climbing. It started out foggy and 55 degrees and we ended at 65 degrees and sunny.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  24. #99
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Sunday's training ride was 2.5 hours of HC in 18 degree temps. The rollers this AM, for 1.5 hrs, was done under roof in 67 degree temps. While riding the rollers I got to watch the American elimination rounds of this years Ninja Warrior Competition. Those dudes are studs!
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  25. #100
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Sunday's training ride was 2.5 hours of HC in 18 degree temps. The rollers this AM, for 1.5 hrs, was done under roof in 67 degree temps. While riding the rollers I got to watch the American elimination rounds of this years Ninja Warrior Competition. Those dudes are studs!
    Hi,

    Even when I lived in the Northeast, my rule was no riding if it was below 25°F. Colder than that was reserved for running or skiing. However, back then, we didn't have all of this high tech, cold weather clothing.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
    "Real men wear pink."
    See my cycling photos at http://www.pbase.com/cleavel/bicycling
    See my bikes at http://www.pbase.com/cleavel/mybicycles
    Visit my blog at http://cleavesblant.wordpress.com/
    Lightning Velo Cycling Club: http://www.lightningvelo.org/

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