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  1. #1551
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Get a smaller jersey that fits! Nice photo BTW. It's good to be able to put a face on the person.
    Ahhhhh-haaaaa!!!!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  2. #1552
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Nice effort Hermes. Take advantage of your peak fitness before it begins to creep away.

    I rode 43 miles with 3 others yesterday evening on a wonderful sunny Oct. day with 65 degrees temp and 0 mph wind. We started at 6:00 PM and rode into the sunset and finished in the dark.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  3. #1553
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    That's a nice power-to-weight ratio. You're down what, about 5 pounds from what you were averaging before?
    Yes, but I was up to 175 with the theory that on the track more weight to an extent was better. The idea was more weight = more power. It does not seem to be the case for me.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  4. #1554
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Nice effort Hermes. Take advantage of your peak fitness before it begins to creep away.

    I rode 43 miles with 3 others yesterday evening on a wonderful sunny Oct. day with 65 degrees temp and 0 mph wind. We started at 6:00 PM and rode into the sunset and finished in the dark.
    This is the end of the season conundrum. Does one back off and give up fitness with the idea of getting it back with improvement later? That is supposed to work for 20 somethings but may not work for older cyclists. My theory is I am not going into a base period per se. I am reducing weekly TSS but keeping some z4 efforts in my riding. I am adding some leg weight work. In previous years, I did a hill climb series. Doing leg weight training and racing up long climbs does not work. This year, I am not doing any hill climb races so I can focus more on the leg work in the gym.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #1555
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    This is the end of the season conundrum. Does one back off and give up fitness with the idea of getting it back with improvement later? That is supposed to work for 20 somethings but may not work for older cyclists.
    I'm terrified of the off-season, and it's not much of a mental break if I'm freaked out about losing the fitness I gained in season 1. I don't have years of base (nor experience) to build on, and I'm just not sure it's a good idea to back off a lot. Coach isn't restricting my riding time, other than to say I should only ride if I feel like it. In other words - no pressure - have fun. But the rides I love are the fast group rides. Both the fast Sunday hammerfest and the Tuesday underground crit (organizer says he'll keep it going as long as people show up) leave me on the verge of puking. That's only a total of maybe 2 hours of the high intensity per week. The team is starting easy base (about 3 hours) on Saturday mornings.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  6. #1556
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    AzT, call me old-fashioned but I'm not sure it is a brilliant idea to train at similar intensity all year round. Extensive "base" miles are pretty useful if you have the time for them, and arguably are all the more important for those who haven't got a huge base already from years of training and racing. You want to do whatever will give you the best platform from which to launch yourself next spring, and in my view, a few weeks doing (mainly) LSD stuff might not be a bad plan. But your coach will presumably have a view?
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  7. #1557
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post

    This is the end of the season conundrum. Does one back off and give up fitness with the idea of getting it back with improvement later? That is supposed to work for 20 somethings but may not work for older cyclists. My theory is I am not going into a base period per se. I am reducing weekly TSS but keeping some z4 efforts in my riding. I am adding some leg weight work. In previous years, I did a hill climb series. Doing leg weight training and racing up long climbs does not work. This year, I am not doing any hill climb races so I can focus more on the leg work in the gym.
    I'm sort of in the same mode. I'm not training for the next 2 months and will ride and race Cross and mtb when I feel like it. Looking back at a power file, on the ride in W PA with my brother on Tue, I had a 5 min effort @ 364 watts about 10 minutes into our ride and wasn't looking at power, just HR and keeping it in Z3. I got to Z4 just as I finished the hill. That same interval in July would have really hurt. On last night's ride I was attacking steep little rollers and had 4 x 5" PP averages of 1,100+. Rested up is a wonderful thing.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  8. #1558
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
    But your coach will presumably have a view?
    Coach has a good sense of my tendencies, and her instructions are to have fun, but to not overdo it. Her primary focus, for me, is on the mental break. So it's okay for me to do the fast stuff, so long as I'm having fun. If I wake up and feel like skipping a ride I planned, I should just skip it. I don't want to skip the rides with my team, and the team is doing slow base right now. Coach has no issues with that, because it will be the 'chat as you ride' sort of pace.

    As soon as the break ends, we'll be focused on aerobic capacity: lots of hours under the Aerobic threshold. 200+ miles per week so long as I have the time and I hold up under the load. Part of that will be at a faster group pace, as my team will be starting to ramp up the intensity then. Coach is a big believer in developing the capacity to burn fat; saving the glycogen for the harder efforts. Another focus as soon as the structured training starts back up will be developing more of a 'time trialers mentality'. I slow way down when I'm not in a group. I need to learn the mental discipline of maintaining the best pace I can if I detach from the lead pack. So we'll be doing some hard solo efforts as we start ramping intensity after several weeks of base phase. We have an early season here: first race is late January or early February.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #1559
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I'm terrified of the off-season, and it's not much of a mental break if I'm freaked out about losing the fitness I gained in season 1. I don't have years of base (nor experience) to build on, and I'm just not sure it's a good idea to back off a lot. Coach isn't restricting my riding time, other than to say I should only ride if I feel like it. In other words - no pressure - have fun. But the rides I love are the fast group rides. Both the fast Sunday hammerfest and the Tuesday underground crit (organizer says he'll keep it going as long as people show up) leave me on the verge of puking. That's only a total of maybe 2 hours of the high intensity per week. The team is starting easy base (about 3 hours) on Saturday mornings.
    During my 2nd year of training for racing I hit a wall mid-season. Prior to that I averaged 2,500 to 3,000 miles a year without the intense efforts needed in training and racing. I currently have 6,800 miles on my road bike and multiple hours on the cross bike and mtb which is normal for the past 3 years. I agree with chasm54 that you don't need to dig yourself a hole by going too deep for too long. Yes, racing and being in fast group rides is fun for a number of reasons. However you don't want to get to where your muscles ache constantly or that it takes a few days to recover from a race.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  10. #1560
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    I have a goal for next year and I am NOT going to let up one bit. If anything, I'll increase my intensity. I'm narrowing my focus, too. It would be nice to take a week off, but I can't bring myself to do that. February will see a threshold birthday for me, and I'm going to make the following year one I can be proud of.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  11. #1561
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    you don't want to get to where your muscles ache constantly or that it takes a few days to recover from a race.
    True, but I haven't had significant soreness since I hired Coach, and I generally recover in 1-2 days. Maybe stretching into 3 sometimes. I've hit some mental walls for a variety of reasons, but so far, as long as I'm ready mentally, the body has held up.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  12. #1562
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    I have a goal for next year and I am NOT going to let up one bit. If anything, I'll increase my intensity. I'm narrowing my focus, too. It would be nice to take a week off, but I can't bring myself to do that. February will see a threshold birthday for me, and I'm going to make the following year one I can be proud of.
    I'm in your corner, Sara, cheering you on. Just remember that recovery IS training too. Anyway, you already had your break, recovering from injury!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  13. #1563
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Azt. One comment on long miles at z2... In new cyclists, the high end collapses to z2. IMO, you are better served with amix of z2 to z4. In fact you can do mostly z3 if you can recover from it.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #1564
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    In new cyclists, the high end collapses to z2.
    Not sure I understand what you mean by this... that when we hit the wall, we end up at z2, so we should do base more up in z3, so when we collapse, we'll still be able to maintain that output?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #1565
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I'm in your corner, Sara, cheering you on. Just remember that recovery IS training too. Anyway, you already had your break, recovering from injury!

    Thank you, AzT! Hey, I'm loving your picture, by the way. You look much as I pictured you do, and interestingly, you and AJ resemble each other quite a lot. At least to me, you do.

    Please keep me informed about the "California Training Session ", I am very much interested.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  16. #1566
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    The theory of periodization is that a cyclist can rest and rebuild starting at z2. One does easier long rides in z2 (base miles). If you have been racing for 10 years and have a big base of years in competition and are younger, the higher output capability is retained to an extent. When the racer starts doing higher output efforts after base, he rebuilds fast to a new and higher value. A new cyclist doing only z2 easy base will lose too much high end capability during the base period. The high end will have to be rebuilt again. This was a post on Friel's blog but I cannot find it to reference it for you.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  17. #1567
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Thanks Hermes, I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge. I'll take it to heart.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  18. #1568
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    Please keep me informed about the "California Training Session ", I am very much interested.
    We better get thinking about a timeframe. The big question is: before, after, or over the holidays?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  19. #1569
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    We better get thinking about a timeframe. The big question is: before, after, or over the holidays?
    I'd vote before. The "during" and "after" time frames are busy for me. Should we start a poll?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  20. #1570
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Thanks Hermes, I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge. I'll take it to heart.
    Hermes has the Russian coaches in his ear. That's a good thing! They may have even trained the Russian rider in American Flyers.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  21. #1571
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    The stories I can tell about the Russians are endless. The Belarus National Team is currently doing a run and jump (with weight on their back) on day a week and lifting weights in a torture circuit the other. When they finish with the weights, they jump on their bikes and ride rollers. Two days each week they are resting and the other days they are riding in formation on long rides. I went to the gym tonight and worked out with weights and came home and jumped on the bike set up on the trainer.

    A weight training circuit followed by intervals on the trainer.

    The coach I am using at the Home Depot Center has said to me on a couple of occasions that the training routine he is using he stole from the Russians. They are definitely the hard boys of cycling. The question becomes who is tough enough to survive the training. If you do, you are one tough SOB. Look at Vino.
    Last edited by Hermes; 10-08-11 at 09:59 AM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  22. #1572
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    It was mid 50's at the start of this morning's ride, and everyone was in arm-warmers. A week ago, it was mid 80's in the morning.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  23. #1573
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    I don't have an official coach; our LBS owner was a CAT1 for many years, his son races for team Yahoo!, and he knows how to train. He's also my age. So after my last PR-setting TT he advised I ride just for fun and not worry about staying in shape (I'm currently running 3-4 days/week training for the Big Sur 1/2 marathon in Nov.). I took his words to heart, and although my group rides might involve some speed challenges, I'm hanging on because I know I can, not because I have to as prescribed in training. I'm not worried about losing fitness, either, for the 1st time in 5 years. I have a trainer, so motivational videos, a couple TDF stages, and a rockin' mix on my iPod to keep me happy and light on the pedals.

    For the first time since I got into racing I'm looking forward to recovery and time off. This is also part of a well-rounded training program. Relax and enjoy. Before you know it you'll be back to accumulating base miles.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

    Visit my blog.

  24. #1574
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Yesterday was an easy 1 hour z1 ride followed by an upper body gym workout. Today was 2:45 endurance ride with my wife that featured some extended z3 efforts. Afterwards, we went to the gym for a core workout.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #1575
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    Today I was back on the trainer after doing my riding on the road for the summer. I was pleased that I had a slight improvement over the last time that I did the same interval routine. Hermes, your fitness and commitment is amazing.

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