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  1. #1601
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    My bike racing season ended in early Sept., so my riding has been more fun-oriented. I still do my hill series about every 10 days but the intensity and volume are much lower than a month ago. My bike is now for fun.

    5 wks. ago c_gallagh and I began a 10-wk. training plan to run the Big Sur 1/2 marathon Nov. 20th (coincidentally, a day before his 58th birthday). We run 4 days/wk. and ride 2-4 days/wk., even if on the trainer.

    I'm enjoying reading about what y'all are doing for training for the "off" season. My question is, if you race road and 'cross, when is your off season?
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

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  2. #1602
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rider View Post
    I'm enjoying reading about what y'all are doing for training for the "off" season. My question is, if you race road and 'cross, when is your off season?
    Good luck in your run Red Rider. Careful that you don't stress the legs due to your cycling benefits. A local guy who I cycle with did a few tri's this summer and celebrated his success by running the Akron Marathon in Sept. I just read on Facebook that he is getting a hip replaced.

    My cycling training starts in December and peaks for July and August. The cyclo cross races and mtb races I'm doing now are just for fun and that has been my approach this year. I'm on a break from organized training during Oct and Nov but will do a few 15 minute Z4 intervals on the cross course every other week just to keep a little edge for as long as I’m racing. Cross races are only 40 minutes and mtb races are mostly 2+ hr endurance riding. Most of my rides now are with friends or on the mtb trails. Days are shorter and rains are more frequent so I'm even skipping a few rides. Because of my fused ankle cycling is my only venue to maintain aerobic fitness other than the Concept 2 machine in the basement, which I will morph into in November when I’ll also begin core/resistance work.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  3. #1603
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    ART, My brother in law just texted me that he will be in Phoenix next week. He would like to do your training crit. If you relay me the info I'll pass it on. I right now heading out the door for a long weekend in W PA and will be back at a computer Monday evening. He will be in the Stark Velo/Subway kit.

    Thanks
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  4. #1604
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Cool... here is a link to Google Maps. Best to park on 9th Place, North of Covey, which is the street to take from 7th Street. B's start at 6:30, and the A's at 7:15.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll...m&z=16&vpsrc=6
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  5. #1605
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Okay, let's see if we can make this happen. I'll throw some ideas out there, and you guys can pick them apart, just like when I try to say something intelligent about cycling.

    I'm thinking a long weekend:
    ..Friday - Long training ride
    ..Saturday - Track?
    ..Sunday - Training ride? Group ride?

    Plus lots of story swapping and consumption of healthy beverages containing anti-oxidants. Oh, and some food.

    Possible weekends: 12/3 or 12/17

    I know Sara works every other weekend, and those fit her schedule. If December doesn't work, we can look at early 2012.

    Thoughts?
    I know Sara said December worked better than January but December is generally pretty hectic for me. With that, I can try to make either weekend work if we are still talking about SoCal. If we do something in late January, there will probably be the first crit of the season on the last Sunday in January. The schedule isn't out yet but there's been a race on that date for a few years now. I use it as a training race more than a real race and it will be my first 55+ crit.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  6. #1606
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Like RR, I'm riding now for fun. I do long rides at a low to moderate pace, but if there are climbs, I try to hit them as hard as I can. I do a short ride twice a week, and it's always moderate intensity with some short high intensity (sprints) intervals. Also like RR, I am running a half marathon (the same one, the Big Sur Half) in November and am concentrating on distance running. I'm out to 8 miles for a twice a week training run, a short "race pace" run once a week, with a "long run" once a week. Yes, there are days when I "ride 'n run", which stems from my tri training, and it works well for me. I take one or two days a week off from any kind of training, or I try to.

    Organized? Not really, but I'm working myself!
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  7. #1607
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    I know Sara said December worked better than January but December is generally pretty hectic for me. With that, I can try to make either weekend work if we are still talking about SoCal. If we do something in late January, there will probably be the first crit of the season on the last Sunday in January. The schedule isn't out yet but there's been a race on that date for a few years now. I use it as a training race more than a real race and it will be my first 55+ crit.
    Is anyone adverse to February if December doesn't work?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  8. #1608
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm good with pretty much any timeframe. February would just depend on specific events (like the Valley of the Sun stage race), and I'll see if those dates are out yet.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #1609
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Did the group ride thing. I rode strong. Ride was really fast. Ride won.

    Eric Freaky Fast was there, directing the paceline "Speed up. Now slow down! (these directed at other people that were surging) Don't pull through unless you're sure it will be easy for you. (said with a hand on MY shoulder)" They dropped me an hour in on an extended (very slight) rise, just after my pull through was a fail that messed up the rotation. I had no idea I was that close to the edge, but the guy ahead of me surged, and well... that was it. KaBoooom.

    But I recovered. I rode an hour alone, including up '9 mile hill', and still averaged over 20 for the 48 miles. I caught them as they were leaving the water stop. I just kept going, which meant I got to enjoy the 27.5 average on the way back, and finished with the group, and with a few swigs of water left.

    Can you tell I'm stretching myself? You have to ride with the big dogs to ride like the big dogs. Right?

    Actually, I know there is some conversation going on at the LBS about how this ride went. One guy got dropped big time on a hilly section, leading him to miss a turn. The group normally regroups, but it took off, with a co-leader going back to pull the guy up. It's not how the LBS intends their rides to go and this is like, you know, the off season?

    82 minutes under FTP; 52 minutes above. Fun.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  10. #1610
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    Like RR, I'm riding now for fun. I do long rides at a low to moderate pace, but if there are climbs, I try to hit them as hard as I can. I do a short ride twice a week, and it's always moderate intensity with some short high intensity (sprints) intervals. Also like RR, I am running a half marathon (the same one, the Big Sur Half) in November and am concentrating on distance running. I'm out to 8 miles for a twice a week training run, a short "race pace" run once a week, with a "long run" once a week. Yes, there are days when I "ride 'n run", which stems from my tri training, and it works well for me. I take one or two days a week off from any kind of training, or I try to.

    Organized? Not really, but I'm working myself!
    Does this mean you're going to drop us? *worried face*
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  11. #1611
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Can you tell I'm stretching myself? You have to ride with the big dogs to ride like the big dogs. Right?

    Actually, I know there is some conversation going on at the LBS about how this ride went. One guy got dropped big time on a hilly section, leading him to miss a turn. The group normally regroups, but it took off, with a co-leader going back to pull the guy up. It's not how the LBS intends their rides to go and this is like, you know, the off season?

    82 minutes under FTP; 52 minutes above. Fun.
    Glad you enjoyed it, and you're obviously getting stronger.

    But, to coin a phrase, this is like, you know, the off-season? If you keep this up through the winter I'd predict you'll start next season as strong as an ox but pay for it by June. Just my opinion, but I'd take care if I were you.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  12. #1612
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Rider View Post
    Does this mean you're going to drop us? *worried face*
    Oh, no!!! Never!!! I'm just concentrating on running right now. I set a goal, something I've never done, and then I work at trying not to embarrass myself (too badly) when I actually do the event. That's all. Drop you? No way!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  13. #1613
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I rode about 5 1/2 hours this weekend including a nice 20 minute z4 climb. On the road, we passed a group of runners running toward our direction but on the side of the road. They were all early 20s and looked like the Standard gang. They were unbelievably fit. The men were not wearing shirts and just crushing the pace. I needed to see what fit men really look like so I could get a reality check. I went right from the bike ride to the gym. I need a lot of work.

    Here is a link to a video from a hill climb race on Saturday. This guy finished 36 out of 120 men. AZT and A'Jet, with your power numbers you guys would win this race. The climb is Page Mill Road which in my opinion is one of the bay areas tougher climbs. It gets a lot of car and bicycle traffic and at times the interaction is dicey. I have done the climb and hate it both climbing and descending but it is very picturesque. The climb we did on Sunday is similar but less houses and traffic and is another route over the Skyline Ridge.

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #1614
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    AZT and A'Jet, with your power numbers you guys would win this race.
    Me win a hill climb? Ha! I might be able to generate similar power numbers, but I'm betting I spread the watts over more weight. Nice kick left at the end, and I see what you mean about it being a tough road if there is traffic. A lot of mountain roads are like that.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #1615
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    A couple of observations about the climb... The rider's time would have been 2nd to the fastest women who is very good. She has placed well in NRC races. The fastest man was about 7:30 faster than the rider in the video and the 2nd fastest man off 30 seconds was 50+. I thought his cadence was excellent and he used his power wisely hitting the steepest parts with the most power. The problem with the Skyline climbs is the scenic cool mountain roads have switchbacks and bumps that can use a lot of energy as well as the undulations in grade. He was riding with one guy who looked pretty stocky who seemed to do well until the end. Having done this climb and many others similar to it, the problem is the torque in your legs. It is endless the entire way and on the steep section each pedal stroke is hard.

    I can make that power as well. The question is can I make it over and over again and take the torque in my legs for 40 minutes? And it is not like crit accelerations where you are pedaling fast or coast and then have a big acceleration. Not all power is created equal.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  16. #1616
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I've been focused a lot lately on our 9-Mile hill, which is part of the Sat group ride I do. It isn't that steep, but it is extremely consistent in grade, and it comes over an hour into the ride. Like you say, a hill like that is relentless. No break for you! This one is also perfectly straight. I watch the PM, and try to keep my power a bit under my FTP. letting it go up when it's steeper. Despite working hard leading up to it last ride, I think I could have pushed the average up a bit. I ended up averaging ~25 watts under FTP. I plan on beating that next ride. The other climb everyone does around here is South Mountain. 1,300' ascent over a 7 mile twisting road that dips a few times. Far different, but takes about the same amount of time for me.

    I love watching ride videos that have the metrics. People should get in the habit of including a metrics summary at the end, with averages and maxes.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  17. #1617
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Looks like our local Freaky Fast guy may pick up a second national championship, as he finished 2nd in the M30-34 RR to someone who just tested positive and accepted a provisional suspension:

    Another U.S. masters rider pinned for doping
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  18. #1618
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I'm finally getting over the flu or sinus infection that has been robbing my energy over the past 2 weeks. I only got 2 rides in over the 4 day weekend due to not feeling well in addition to high wind and rain. Yesterday I went out for a mixed bag road ride and did 2 steep climbs on the 28 mile ride. I had as much power as I wanted and for as long as I pressed on the climbs. I didn't want to put in any killer efforts but did want to test myself to see how I was feeling and how much fitness I've lost over the past 2 weeks. On the 2nd climb up the 1.3 mile 9% ave grade I went into the climb moderately @ 300 watts and after a few minutes upped the watts to 325. My cadence in my lowest gear of 53/25 was less than 60 rpms and my HR was still in mid-Z3. For the last 1/3rd of the climb I kept upping the power and watching the HR as it crept to low Z4 and finished out the 11 minute effort in mid-Z4. Once back home I could read the PT files and found the 11 min effort averaged 331 watts and 141 HR, with a max of 153 bpm, at 58 rpm. I'll take that as a sign that I'm back from the walking dead. For that hill I really needed my Roubaix with its compact crank or a 27 on the cassette of my Tarmac.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  19. #1619
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I went to the track this AM and did a warm up and 10 lap effort. I am off to the gym for a leg workout.

    A"Jet, When I did my 20 minute z4 climb, my heart rate did not get to AT until about 10 minutes into the climb and my warmup time was over an hour with a couple of sustained z3 power efforts. It looks like you got rid of your small chain ring on the bike you used for the climb. 53/25 is impressive on a 10% grade. Even Contador would approve of that routine.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  20. #1620
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I went to the track this AM and did a warm up and 10 lap effort. I am off to the gym for a leg workout.

    A"Jet, When I did my 20 minute z4 climb, my heart rate did not get to AT until about 10 minutes into the climb and my warmup time was over an hour with a couple of sustained z3 power efforts. It looks like you got rid of your small chain ring on the bike you used for the climb. 53/25 is impressive on a 10% grade. Even Contador would approve of that routine.

    My ride must have served as a good WU and my hill effort was metered out perfectly closely following your protocol. I guess that I possibly overstated the gearing, maybe it was the 39/25 after all. Contador and all others have no need to fear me, one itsy bitsy 7 second acceleration and I'm popped.

    You seem to be doing a lot of leg workouts Hermes. You working on thunder thighs or massive quads?
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  21. #1621
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Didn't see your brother in law at the crit, Jet... either he didn't make it or I couldn't spot the kit. I rode the A's, fell off once quite a way into it, rejoined when they came around, and held on easily the rest of the way. 2 or 3 guys were off the front, so the pack didn't ramp up at the end. Just needed that one break after things heated up mid-race and my heart was only held in my chest by fragments of my disintegrating lungs. As I faded, I got a thanks for being a good wheel for a guy who rode mine most of the time. That was cool... Fun ride.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #1622
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    When I spoke to David he was excited about the crit as he was planning some Z4 intervals anyway. Something must have come up. AzTR you are beginning to make the grade in crit racing. When you got popped is probably when the break attempt was underway. Everyone is suffering just to hold a wheel and as soon as those guys get a gap everyone eases up, including the breakaway guys unless they still need to shed someone. During those times just to stay with the pack I'm telling myself to HTFU and "this is the race dummy, don't let it go away by feeling sorry for yourself".
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  23. #1623
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    If he is interested in some fun base miles, there is this ride on Saturday. It's in memory of a policeman and avid cyclist that died suddenly. It benefits an organization that supports the families of first responders. Popularity has been skyrocketing, and it's known for massive police support, and good food. The usual club rides are expected to be light on riders because of this one.

    http://www.bullshifters.org/images/2...lyer100511.pdf
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  24. #1624
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    When you got popped is probably when the break attempt was underway. Everyone is suffering just to hold a wheel and as soon as those guys get a gap everyone eases up, including the breakaway guys unless they still need to shed someone.
    Yep, pretty sure that was it. Eric Freaky Fast is always given a chance to provide tips before we start, so after we applauded his getting the USA Gold in the RR (the guy who tested positive had latched onto his wheel during a long breakaway and then nipped him at the finish by 6") he suggested that, as this was a practice race, people should take flyers without worrying about getting popped. He then rode back in the pack for most of the race, to let people do that. A few laps before the finish, he took off, and watching someone of his caliber launch an attack is a sight to behold. They way he did it, there was zero opportunity for anyone to latch onto him. He was just gone. One of the great things about this kind of race is learning from the P12 guys. You don't get that chance in a Cat 4 race!

    During those times just to stay with the pack I'm telling myself to HTFU and "this is the race dummy, don't let it go away by feeling sorry for yourself".
    I've clearly been improving my skills: maintaining my momentum better, closing gaps faster to get back out of the wind, having enough faith in the guy ahead to start cranking it in a turn knowing he will too, pushing hard when I need to and realizing when I can ease up a touch. But you hit the nail on the head. Improving my HTFU when the race is on the line has to be my #1 priority. I've been pushing back the time when that moment will happen, but when it does, I often let it get away.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  25. #1625
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I've clearly been improving my skills: maintaining my momentum better, closing gaps faster to get back out of the wind, having enough faith in the guy ahead to start cranking it in a turn knowing he will too, pushing hard when I need to and realizing when I can ease up a touch. But you hit the nail on the head. Improving my HTFU when the race is on the line has to be my #1 priority. I've been pushing back the time when that moment will happen, but when it does, I often let it get away.
    It also gets easier once you become more familiar with race dynamics and are able to process what is going on up ahead and are prepared for the "big push". Watching ahead could also enable you to close gaps without much effort if you see the bunch forming up the road. You can kill yourself to close a gap coming out of a turn only to slam on the brake because the leaders sat up. Every extreme effort you save is one left for when it counts later on. Once out of big efforts and you are most likely off the back, save a couple big efforts and you might be racing for the field sprint.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

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