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  1. #151
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jet. There are several different protocols I've seen, some of which try to also determine your Critical Power for various durations as part of the same test, which makes it an incredibly draining workout. Looks like your test drains your anaerobic capacity with the z5a work, so that it isn't there to benefit you during your 20 minute FTP test. I understand that's a necessary component of using a 20 minute test to determine a 60 minute threshold.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  2. #152
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Thanks, Jet. There are several different protocols I've seen, some of which try to also determine your Critical Power for various durations as part of the same test, which makes it an incredibly draining workout. Looks like your test drains your anaerobic capacity with the z5a work, so that it isn't there to benefit you during your 20 minute FTP test. I understand that's a necessary component of using a 20 minute test to determine a 60 minute threshold.

    I now understand the reasoning for the 5 minute interval. Usually I have an adrenalin rush at the beginning of a hard interval and I was just counting on that to get me going. It makes sense that the 20 minute test does not need to be compromised with stored energy. The next time I take the test my mindset will be a lot different.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  3. #153
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    AJ, it sounds like you are on your way to converting over to power training. It sounds like you are doing terrific and it is not surprising considering how well you have done this season and your performance as a collegiate athlete.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  4. #154
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    AJ, it sounds like you are on your way to converting over to power training. It sounds like you are doing terrific and it is not surprising considering how well you have done this season and your performance as a collegiate athlete.
    You have done very well yourself Hermes. I'm in the 3rd year of my 5 year plan to become a good racer that was formulated after my first season of attempting to race. I believe I'm 1 year ahead of you and you will see the same improvement curve. It wasn't that long ago that my goal was to finish a cat 5 race with the field. Training with power should allow for more specific workouts and identification of limiters.

    I think this forum for racing and training has great potential for any one considering racing, tt'ing, or those who just want to ride faster or longer and who want to do take some specific training. Thanks for your input to my questions and comments.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  5. #155
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    You have done very well yourself Hermes. I'm in the 3rd year of my 5 year plan to become a good racer that was formulated after my first season of attempting to race. I believe I'm 1 year ahead of you and you will see the same improvement curve. It wasn't that long ago that my goal was to finish a cat 5 race with the field. Training with power should allow for more specific workouts and identification of limiters.

    I think this forum for racing and training has great potential for any one considering racing, tt'ing, or those who just want to ride faster or longer and who want to do take some specific training. Thanks for your input to my questions and comments.
    Thanks AJ. My racing club held its annual awards banquet for the 2010 season and I won the most improved rider of the year. Considering we have over 250 members consisting of very talented riders, I am very appreciative of the honor.

    My wife and I are skiing in Deer Valley, UT this week and so far my legs have felt pretty good. Sunday, we did 14,000 vertical feet and 16,000 feet on Monday. Yesterday, was very cold and we were a little tired so we took it easy and did 5,500 feet. It is -10 degrees F as I am writing this with a low of -16 early this morning. It will be another easy day since it is too cold to do numerous runs back to back.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  6. #156
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Thanks AJ. My racing club held its annual awards banquet for the 2010 season and I won the most improved rider of the year. Considering we have over 250 members consisting of very talented riders, I am very appreciative of the honor.
    Congratulations, Hermes. and that is one big club!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  7. #157
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    We started our ski week arriving at Park City, UT on Saturday. I rented skis and my wife and I have been skiing every day since. Today, was a great day of skiing with excellent conditions with sunny skies and temperatures in the teens. The previous two days were okay but the temperatures were in the sub zero range with a lot of wind. Tomorrow is the final ski day giving us six days in a row with an average vertical feet of 15,000 per day. The Rossignol S 86 skis are the shti that will kill them. Very nice skis for both hard pack and crud.

    It is unknown how skiing affects cycling performance other than I am sure we have lost some aerobic capability. However, we did workout at the gym every day. So who knows?

    My thighs were a little sore on Wednesday and I was thinking about hiring a Southern California female cycling coach to check the depth of the soreness. I could meet her at the LA Velodrome and go from there.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  8. #158
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    My thighs were a little sore on Wednesday and I was thinking about hiring a Southern California female cycling coach to check the depth of the soreness. I could meet her at the LA Velodrome and go from there.
    ROFL.. I'll let her know.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #159
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Ski trip is in the books and we are through security and waiting for our flight back home. It feels great to be back near sea level. This year, I did not feel the effects of altitude on my skiing or climbing stairs, which I have in the past. Aerobically, I was great. However, I do not sleep as well at altitude and seem to need a lot more bio breaks. I am going to do an easy spin on the trainer tonight and then back on the road tomorrow. The weatherman calls for 70 degrees and sunny.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #160
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Did the same thing I did last week, joining my club for the group ride, and then adding a couple of hours of base when it finished. Total of about 4.5 hours and ~75 miles. Stopped for breakfast just before the end, so I could get recovery protein and carbs into my sytem right away. I'm thinking I need to eat more early in a long ride, rather than later, to stay ahead of the carb curve. And I've switched from Hammer Electrolyte tablets to Clif Blocks (like soft candy, almost, with both carbs and elctrolytes), but I'm not sure it is a steady enough stream of electrolytes. I had a slight stitch in my side for awhile after the big climb - had never had that when on the Hammer electrolytes, but had it twice since I tried the switch. Seemed to go away after increasing the Clif Bloks intake, but that could be coincidence. I'm still trying to find a fluid intake balance that will keep me hydrated but not force me to stop to pee. Stopping is the epitome of slow.

    I didn't get in the hour of high-intensity Coach specified, because the faster riders didn't break away until late in the ride. So the only upper zone work was on the one z5 (HR) climb, and a couple of periods of faster paceline with the breakaway group. I have got to get faster on the climbs. If it were a race, with no stoplights, I would've been dropped and unable to bridge back. On the toughest climb, I was all by myself between the A group and the B group. At least I'm closer to the A group these days, and I can hold my own with them everywhere but on the longer climbs. The thing is, though, that most of these guys aren't racing, so I'm expecting to face some tough climbing challenges. I wonder how I would look, at 6-6, if I dropped down to, say, 165 pounds. That's where I was in high school, so it should be possible, right? Of course, there's always EPO. Maybe Coach can hook me up...
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  11. #161
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I took my bike to the shop to have the headset bearings changed, the shifter cables changed and a Kristen Armstrong chain drop preventer installed. The rear der cable was starting to fray. FYI, if the cable breaks in a Shimano brifter, it may be impossible for the shop to get the broken piece out. The fix is to buy a new brifter: ouch.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  12. #162
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Went to watch a local crit today, and got there for the last half of the first of two Cat 5 races. ~1.2 mile course with fast corners, at a local speedway (Firebird). I timed a couple of laps, and, if the course is indeed 1.2 miles, the front pack was doing about 27.5. With 3 laps to go, after having broken away once and been reeled back in, a guy got away solo and won by 100+ yards. I clocked his last lap at over 28, and that was with the race in the bag. Two riders went down with three laps to go, on a sweeping left hander. Didn't see what triggered it.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  13. #163
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    2 hour ride with a couple os SST efforts. Today, was a chainless day when everything felt easy - high power at high cadence was no problem. Later, I went to the gym and did a core and back workout.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #164
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    169.6 pounds this morning.....
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  15. #165
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    169.6 pounds this morning.....
    Waif, I hate you.

    Still indoors and still 188 in Ohio.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  16. #166
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Was VERY busy last week getting ready for the track race that our club sponsored this past Saturday. We had a great turnout and the best part was that everyone stayed upright for the morning and afternoon sessions. As the volunteer coordinator (and relief guy) I was there for 12 hours -- ugh.

    Ended up doing a 60 mile training ride with my club on Sunday. Hammered every hill trying to get some Z4 work in before heading to AZ for the Valley of the Sun Stage Race this coming Friday. More on that later.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    My goal is to obtain platinum by finishing that 72 mile course in under 3:05.
    And platinum status is just one of those things Arizona riders like to have.
    I have no idea what platinum means but it must be a good thing and uniquely Arizona. I don't even have a platinum credit card.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    I figure the Gunnar is a great bike for improving my racing skills while in Cat 5, and I'm still not sure what the light racing bike should be. My thoughts had been a Roubaix, but that is basically a lighter smoother version of what I have: long wheelbase and relaxed geo. Current thought is a Madone 6.2, which comes pretty tall: only 1cm shorter HT than the Roubaix. Made in the USA, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I wouldn't get a Roubaix to race . Well, I did..., and now I race on a Tarmac. The Roubaix will not turn as well as the other bikes you will be racing around. Trust me on this, been there, done that.
    AzTallRider, I agree with Allegheny Jet. A tall head tube is NOT your friend when it comes to racing. Of course you can get too low but that generally is not the problem for many Masters racers. Given how committed you seem about this, I would recommend getting a professional fitting using the Gunnar as a baseline. My problem with the way they size bikes these days is that the head tubes are too tall on most bikes that are around my size.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    And I've switched from Hammer Electrolyte tablets to Clif Blocks (like soft candy, almost, with both carbs and elctrolytes), but I'm not sure it is a steady enough stream of electrolytes. I had a slight stitch in my side for awhile after the big climb - had never had that when on the Hammer electrolytes, but had it twice since I tried the switch.
    If some of the Hammer products work for you I recommend using the suite of products exclusively as they are designed to work together. I've been using Hammer stuff for about 4 years after trying a raft of products that didn't work for me. I use Endurolytes and they have pretty much kept me cramp-free since I started using them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I took my bike to the shop to have the headset bearings changed, the shifter cables changed and a Kristen Armstrong chain drop preventer installed.
    I put chain keepers on all of my road bikes last year. Chain suck on a carbon frame can be deadly for the chain stay.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  17. #167
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Thanks AJ. My racing club held its annual awards banquet for the 2010 season and I won the most improved rider of the year. Considering we have over 250 members consisting of very talented riders, I am very appreciative of the honor.
    Hi Hermes, I think I congratulated you on this elsewhere, but if I didn't, CONGRATULATIONS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    169.6 pounds this morning.....
    I'd congratulate you on your weight too, but now you're depressing me. I haven't lost a pound since the beginning of the year.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  18. #168
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    Just to finish up this 50+ racing session, I'll be heading to beautiful downtown Phoenix on Thursday with two teammates for the Valley of the Sun Stage Race. Because one of my teammates is under 50, I and my other teammate are racing down (in age, up in speed) in the Masters 40+ race. We will be doing a 14 mile ITT on Friday, 57 mile road race on Saturday, and 30 minute criterium on Sunday. I told my younger teammate that if I don't make the time cut on Saturday, he's paying my bar tab on Saturday night.

    I have been wanting to do this race for the past few years but it always seemed a bit too early in the season for a stage race. However, since I already have done four races this year I guess I'm reasonably prepared.

    BTW, I started four race but already have a DNF in the books. I did the Poor College Kids Road Race near Los Olivos, CA a week ago. Had the "pleasure" of being in the Masters 45+ field which was full of Cat 1 and Cat 2 guys. I swear these people don't have to work for a living or they are much more dedicated than I.

    Anyway, the course started with a 5-mile climb that varied from 1% to 6% most of the way. I was in a 53 X 21 or a 53 X 19 most of the way up until we got to a 100 meter, 10% kicker near the top. I shifted down to the 39 and was out the back like the proverbial lead balloon.

    I was by myself for the rest of the 32 mile lap. I saw that my teammate was by himself after the turnaround at the end of lap 1. When I saw him after the mid-lap turnaround on lap 2 I turned around, cutting off about 4 miles from the lap. So I ended up with a 60-mile DNF. At least I got some reasonable training out of it.

    The road stage of Valley of the Sun is supposed to be much flatter -- I hope.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  19. #169
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Hi Cleave: Good luck at the Valley of the Sun. It sounds like you are ready.

    MEA and I wanted to do the Winter Classics at LAV but had the conflict with the ski trip. Considering how great I felt on Sunday, I probably would have done okay even with 6 days of skiing in my legs. MEA will be at the first LAVRA race at LAV and will return for a week at our place in Newport coast in March. We will do Roger's session and will bring our road bikes. We may be able to hook up with you for a road ride but hope to see you at LAV.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  20. #170
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Cleave, I'm hoping to be there watching some of the crit on Sunday. Will you be in Lightning Velo Pink?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  21. #171
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I know your pain Cleve. I did a stage race last July with the Master's 45+ guys what also had a compliment of Cat 1's and 2's. In the RR I stayed with the front group up the first climb but couldn't hold on in the rollers and drifted back to the 2nd group. On the 2nd climb I could not hold on with the 2nd group and ended up finishing with other guys who were just as blown up. I did recover enough on the last day to finish up in the top 10 in the crit.

    Good luck in the Valley of the Sun race.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  22. #172
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Track workout today... 50 lap warmup (17Km), 3 easy 100 meter jumps, 2 x 200 meter flying 200 meters shut down after 100 meters with 10 minutes rest between. I race at LA velodrome in a couple of weeks and I wanted to get some sprinty high cadence work in my legs. It was a beautiful morning, sunny with temps in the low 60s and some wind. One of my friends got a new BT Stealth track bike. It is to die for.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #173
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Okay, well, I now have one race under my bibs. Quite the learning experience. I was expecting a sprint from the start, so I took off, looked back, and was all alone. Oops. So then I was stuck in front with nobody wanting to pass. Spent 4 minutes above what I previously thought was my max HR, wanting a drink from the bottle I left on my car thinking I wouldn't need it in a 15 minute race. People finally started passing me, and I wasn't able to grab a tire right away, so I worked my way back a bit before I found a spot I could hold. That mini-group was too slow, but there was no way I was going to bridge to the folks ahead, so I stayed there to the end. No crash, and I wasn't lapped. I'll have a different strategy next week.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  24. #174
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Okay, well, I now have one race under my bibs. Quite the learning experience. I was expecting a sprint from the start, so I took off, looked back, and was all alone. Oops. So then I was stuck in front with nobody wanting to pass. Spent 4 minutes above what I previously thought was my max HR, wanting a drink from the bottle I left on my car thinking I wouldn't need it in a 15 minute race. People finally started passing me, and I wasn't able to grab a tire right away, so I worked my way back a bit before I found a spot I could hold. That mini-group was too slow, but there was no way I was going to bridge to the folks ahead, so I stayed there to the end. No crash, and I wasn't lapped. I'll have a different strategy next week.
    Congrats on one in the bag. Whenever I'm in a race and stuck on the front doing all the work, I just start to soft pedal and the guys get impatient and begin to pass. As soon as that starts I'll grab a wheel, follow and recover.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  25. #175
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Okay, well, I now have one race under my bibs. Quite the learning experience. I was expecting a sprint from the start, so I took off, looked back, and was all alone. Oops. So then I was stuck in front with nobody wanting to pass. Spent 4 minutes above what I previously thought was my max HR, wanting a drink from the bottle I left on my car thinking I wouldn't need it in a 15 minute race. People finally started passing me, and I wasn't able to grab a tire right away, so I worked my way back a bit before I found a spot I could hold. That mini-group was too slow, but there was no way I was going to bridge to the folks ahead, so I stayed there to the end. No crash, and I wasn't lapped. I'll have a different strategy next week.
    Very good getting out there. You did the classic rookie maneuver of taking the lead and then having trouble getting a good wheel when the fast guys passed you. How do I know this? Been there done that. As they pass, there will not let you in.

    Part of the strategy of lining up in a race is deciding initial position and knowing the good wheels. Over time, one learns who the other racers are and who is a good wheel. However, you did great.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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