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  1. #176
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Part of the strategy of lining up in a race is deciding initial position and knowing the good wheels. Over time, one learns who the other racers are and who is a good wheel. However, you did great.
    The smart guys were getting their positions as the main group finished its last warmup lap. I wondered why everyone was lining up in a double row, instead of spreading out across the start line. I figured they knew each other and were grabbing wheels. The wheels I had scoped out (a team I figured would work together a bit and be fast) were buried, so I went to the front, forming another row. Next week, I'll make sure I'm with the group during the final warmup and pick a place that makes sense. Then I'll try to hang on to whomever starts making a move. Make sense?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  2. #177
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    The smart guys were getting their positions as the main group finished its last warmup lap. I wondered why everyone was lining up in a double row, instead of spreading out across the start line. I figured they knew each other and were grabbing wheels. The wheels I had scoped out (a team I figured would work together a bit and be fast) were buried, so I went to the front, forming another row. Next week, I'll make sure I'm with the group during the final warmup and pick a place that makes sense. Then I'll try to hang on to whomever starts making a move. Make sense?
    The race format was interesting. All the races, except one which had two mentors, lined up across the starting line. Doing warmup laps in a double pace line and then lining up that way to start has not been my experience. In the mentored race, the mentor took the field around the course once to show the line through the turns. Once we were back at the start, we spread out along the starting line and when the *** sounded, we were off. At the track, we all hang on the rail for the start of a points race and there is a neutral lap where racers pick out wheels.

    Are you on a racing team? The reason I ask is that another advantage of belonging to a team is that there are other racers in the race who will open a gap and let you in a good position. Part of the skills courses I have taken is learning how to ride someone off a wheel and understanding the ebb and flow of a pack in an actual race versus a group ride. You may want to discuss this with your coach.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  3. #178
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Are you on a racing team? The reason I ask is that another advantage of belonging to a team is that there are other racers in the race who will open a gap and let you in a good position. Part of the skills courses I have taken is learning how to ride someone off a wheel and understanding the ebb and flow of a pack in an actual race versus a group ride. You may want to discuss this with your coach.
    I'm scoping out the various teams, trying to find the right fit. My club isn't a racing club, and the LBS I use doesn't really have a team, per se, though I think they have a few sponsored riders. As the season progresses, I'll learn more about the various teams. The larger teams are of course the ones with the most Cat 5 riders. And I hear you about riding someone off a wheel. I bet there is a fine line between doing that properly and crossing the line. I did accomplish that, once, as a line came past with a tiny little gap. I pressed the issue a bit, and got in.

    I did have one "team mate" in the race: a woman who has the same coach. She is a national class triathlete who has decided to improve her cycling by focusing on it for a couple of years. It was her first crit also. She weighs 120#, so she didn't break the wind much, which was gusting over 20 knots. So I passed her, and grabbed a bigger guy's wheel. She was more than happy to let me in front of her! We plan on working together more next week. At least, unlike Coach, her quads are -not- bigger than mine!

    There was one fairly close call for me - really freaky. It was when I was leading the parade, going into the second lap. I swung wide on the straight to setup the first turn, with everyone following me outside except this one young guy who came screaming up on the inside. The straight was both downwind and a little downhill, leading to a sweeping almost-180 right hander. I knew there was absolutely no way he was going to make the turn, and so I held up a bit as he came jetting across in front of me. Good thing the outside of the course was an open parking lot, because he went off the course by about 30 yards, then cut a corner and rejoined the race. I'm thinking "WTF? Did you even ride the course before the start?"

    Vigilance is paramount, eh?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  4. #179
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Power meter arrives Friday!!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  5. #180
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Power meter arrives Friday!!
    Let the good times roll!
    So far, I'm really enjoying mine. I will be doing another FTP test soon and should establish and/or reaffirm my power zones. I had to do 4 x 8 min Z4 intervals on Monday evening and my power during the intervals was substantially higher than my average watts on the first 20 minute test.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  6. #181
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Are you doing the test indoors again? Some people say indoor tests provide a lower FTP than outdoors, as a result of your body temperature being more elevated, the trainer's lack of momentum providing fewer micro-rests, and the affect of temperature on the meters themselves.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  7. #182
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I'll most likely be indoors. I suspect that I'll test better the next time simply due to having a starting point as far as effort. I'll just begin the interval at a point slightly higher than the first test's average watts and go from there. On Monday I did Z4 intervals while on the rollers and noticed a significant difference in watts to effort as compared to riding the trainer.

    The PT computer will not work in temps below 32 degrees, which is higher than our average daily high.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  8. #183
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Thanks for the good wishes. Heading out to Phoenix this morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Hi Cleave: Good luck at the Valley of the Sun. It sounds like you are ready.

    MEA and I wanted to do the Winter Classics at LAV but had the conflict with the ski trip. Considering how great I felt on Sunday, I probably would have done okay even with 6 days of skiing in my legs. MEA will be at the first LAVRA race at LAV and will return for a week at our place in Newport coast in March. We will do Roger's session and will bring our road bikes. We may be able to hook up with you for a road ride but hope to see you at LAV.
    I've been feeling surprisingly good this week too. Let's hope it lasts. Looking forward to seeing you and MEA. Hopefully we can fit in a road ride too.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Cleave, I'm hoping to be there watching some of the crit on Sunday. Will you be in Lightning Velo Pink?
    I will probably be in our race team green and blue (with a big alligator on the jersey and shorts) if I can get my race kit washed and dried in time. Otherwise I will be in pink and blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I know your pain Cleve. I did a stage race last July with the Master's 45+ guys what also had a compliment of Cat 1's and 2's. In the RR I stayed with the front group up the first climb but couldn't hold on in the rollers and drifted back to the 2nd group. On the 2nd climb I could not hold on with the 2nd group and ended up finishing with other guys who were just as blown up. I did recover enough on the last day to finish up in the top 10 in the crit.

    Good luck in the Valley of the Sun race.
    The VoS 40+ field doesn't look as stacked as the Poor College Kids 45+ field, but I'm not counting any chickens until after Saturday's race.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  9. #184
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Okay, well, I now have one race under my bibs. Quite the learning experience. I was expecting a sprint from the start, so I took off, looked back, and was all alone. Oops. So then I was stuck in front with nobody wanting to pass. Spent 4 minutes above what I previously thought was my max HR, wanting a drink from the bottle I left on my car thinking I wouldn't need it in a 15 minute race. People finally started passing me, and I wasn't able to grab a tire right away, so I worked my way back a bit before I found a spot I could hold. That mini-group was too slow, but there was no way I was going to bridge to the folks ahead, so I stayed there to the end. No crash, and I wasn't lapped. I'll have a different strategy next week.
    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    The smart guys were getting their positions as the main group finished its last warmup lap. I wondered why everyone was lining up in a double row, instead of spreading out across the start line. I figured they knew each other and were grabbing wheels. The wheels I had scoped out (a team I figured would work together a bit and be fast) were buried, so I went to the front, forming another row. Next week, I'll make sure I'm with the group during the final warmup and pick a place that makes sense. Then I'll try to hang on to whomever starts making a move. Make sense?
    Hi AzTallRider,

    Glad to hear that you got to race for the first time. Every race, no matter how many you've done, is a learning experience.

    What kind of race was this? A weekday training series? Was the course wide and flat?

    I'm asking these questions because how you handle the start and the early part of the race depends on a number of things. From what I am reading, I wouldn't depend on many races starting as you described. I can't think of any race I've ever started where people lined up like that. I've been in some rolling start races where people get lined up that way but the wind and/or rolling start speed typically cause a two-by-two line-up.

    As Hermes and AJ have noted, charging to the front can be a problem, especially is the course is fast and wide. If it is narrow and twisty, being at the front can be an advantage. The key is to not "cook" yourself because then you won't be able to grab a wheel when the pack comes by.

    Enough for now. Heading out your way soon. See you on Sunday. I'll be with a couple of other guys in a big red/maroon van with a big Kings decal on it.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
    "Real men wear pink."
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  10. #185
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Cleave - Yes, it's a weekday training series, and the course is wide and flat: cones marking the turns, in a stadium parking lot. It was very windy, so maybe that was partly why people lined up the way they did.

    I did exactly what you just pointed out: charged to the lead, cooked myself (MHR for 4 minutes), and was unable to grab a wheel when the first few riders went past. They weren't even moving that fast, but made their move on the uphill/upwind side as I was slowing from cooking myself.

    I'll try not to yell "Cleave!!!" at you in a tight congested corner!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  11. #186
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I did hill repeats this morning near the beginning of my 15 mile commute, then mid z2 on the rest of the way in. I love a workout like that, with a hard effort and then some fast cruising. Rest day tomorrow, then my usual "group ride plus base" Saturday. 60-90 minutes chasing whatever A group riders show up, then z2-3 until I hit 80 miles. I'm feeling the higher intensity work I've done this week in my legs, but I'm not fatigued or sore. "The Stick" seems to really help keep the soreness/tightness away.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  12. #187
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Pretty hard week so far for me. Monday was 4 x 8' Z4 intervals on the rollers with the first 1' of each interval being Off The Saddle. Tuesday was a 2 hr trainer ride with 1:35 @ Z3, then last night's trainer class. In the trainer class we did the usual groups of ILD pyramids, lactate tempo ladder, OTS intervals into progressively longer Z4 intervals and then ended with "spin-outs". Starting @100 cadence for 45 seconds the A group went 15 seconds @ 140, then 45" recovery @ 100 rpm, to 15" @ 145, back to 100 rpm recovery for 45", ... upping the cadence by 5 rpm each cycle until topping out the last 15 seconds @ 190 rpm. On the last high cadence interval @ 190 rpm I just nailed it and during the 15". I saw a number beginning with a 2 for most of the interval. At 200+ rpm my butt barley touches the saddle if at all.

    No riding tonight unless I decide to ice fish tomorrow ,then I’ll do Friday's “skillz on the rollers” workout. I have found it much easier to do Isolated Leg Drills on the rollers if I use my Eggbeaters mtb pedals which have 4 sides to clip back into. Riding on rollers with one leg is not difficult, getting clipped back in while building up speed with one leg trying to find a pedal is the hard part. I will also make up 2 days of missed core/resistance work this evening. I reached a milestone last week by doing 2 reps of hand stand pushups. I can now call it a set.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  13. #188
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    If you do just one rep, it is called max strength.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #189
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Okay Jet, I now feel like a total wuss! But great job putting in that kind of effort.

    I start bouncing all over my seat at ~130rpm. Of course, before I started doing spinups and OLP, I used to start bouncing at 105. I need to get on track with my core strength work, and keep doing the spinups.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #190
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Okay Jet, I now feel like a total wuss! But great job putting in that kind of effort.

    I start bouncing all over my seat at ~130rpm. Of course, before I started doing spinups and OLP, I used to start bouncing at 105. I need to get on track with my core strength work, and keep doing the spinups.
    You better be careful or the cadence police will show up. Some.... think cadence is a red herring. I do know that I can always choose to spin slower but I have to train to spin faster.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  16. #191
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I got our bikes ready for a three day training camp. The weather looks spectacular with temps in the mid 60s to 70s with the only issue being cooler temps in the morning with a big temperature swing. I may get back my bicycle tan. I plan on doing the warm up and then go off on my own. The plan is for 3 four hour days in the saddle with a lot of climbing. Since I am racing at the track in a couple of weeks, I do not want that much low cadence hill work to cause any of my fast fibers to convert to slow. So I am staying flatter, faster with higher cadence.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  17. #192
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Sounds like a fun weekend Hermes. Three hour rides provides a lot of time for other fun activities. Our leader at the trainer class is having the A group attempt to do the OTS intervals at 80 to 85 to 90 rpm in progressively longer intervals starting at 1:30 for each cadence working up to 3 minutes or 9 minutes for the set. In the past I was very happy to plod along on the OTS work at 65-70, but that is no longer good enough. I'm having trouble with anything over 80 rpms when OTS. I know it is a lot easier on the road when you can swing the bike to allow the hips to push over the top.

    I'm still over a month away from the first race of the season in mid-March. It is one of the two races held on the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course. There is the usual 50% chance of it being postponed due to snow.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  18. #193
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Trackies do not rock the bike when out of the saddle and we can light it up. New roadies to the track have the roadie throw. The problem with the throw is it is hard to control the bike and have high cadence in the turns and on a 250 meter track one is turning 50% of the time. When we do 100 meter jumps, we do a couple standing and I hit 120 to 130 rpm out of the saddle.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  19. #194
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Day 1 of training camp in the bag. 3 hours of riding, one hour lecture and core and back work in the gym. The temperature hit 70 with sunny skies and today is going to be similar. My wife did more climbing and rode 50 miles with 100 feet of climbing per mile generating 1650 Kjoules for 110 pound weight.

    I did the bottom third of the climb which was across Mount Eden. I did not want to do the 5 mile climb coming up. I turned around to go back the way I came. The reverse up Mount Eden was evil and I did not know the climb.. 14 to16% grades are just wrong. I might have had a better deal taking the 7% for 5 miles. It's all good.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  20. #195
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Day 2 in the books - 2 hours. It was another gorgeous day with temps in the high 60s and sunny. The warm up ride to climbing was a blast but hard. There were several 500 watt bumps and one moderate climb leading up to a steeper grade which was 450 watts. I had no problem with any of the accelerations.

    We had a lecture on nutrition and how to periodize eating with the racing season. It was interesting and the take away was eat less and be hungry - eat to train do not train to eat.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  21. #196
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Da Powa!

    Sounds like a great camp, Hermes.

    I have POWER!! Meaning my Quarq CinQo is installed and operational... :-) And I'm totally digging the 39/53 crank. Here is this mornings 80 mile ride. 50 with the club, then an additional 30 base.

    Entire workout (187 watts):
    Duration: 4:24:47 (5:33:34)
    Work: 2961 kJ
    TSS: 359.3 (intensity factor 0.922)
    Norm Power: 230
    VI: 1.24
    Pw:HR: 22.07%
    Pa:HR: 1.23%
    Distance: 80.302 mi
    Elevation Gain: 1692 ft
    Elevation Loss: 1661 ft

    ....................Min........Max.......Avg
    Power:............0..........805.......187 watts
    Heart Rate:.....81.........178.......136 bpm
    Cadence:.......19..........164........87 rpm
    Speed:............0.........36.2......18.0 mph
    Crank Torque:...0.........882.......181 lb-in
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  22. #197
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Nice Hermes, tell us how good the weather was, report your awesome mid-year power, then remind us that we all are too fat. I'm surprised that you didn't tell us about the fabulous night life trading race stories with Cat 1 racers and smoking hot female riders.

    Tomorrow's ride out here in OH should be nice!, if you like 28 degrees with only 20 mph winds gusting to 30mph, and a 50% chance of freezing rain and snow showers. At least it won't be 12-18 degrees for a change. I just don't want to do HC for 2.5 hours on the rollers or trainer. I looked at my computer during trainer class this morning and saw that it has recorded 820 miles since January 1st. All but about 4 rides have been indoors this year.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  23. #198
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegheny jet View Post
    nice hermes, tell us how good the weather was, report your awesome mid-year power, then remind us that we all are too fat. I'm surprised that you didn't tell us about the fabulous night life trading race stories with cat 1 racers and smoking hot female riders.

    tomorrow's ride out here in oh should be nice!, if you like 28 degrees with only 20 mph winds gusting to 30mph, and a 50% chance of freezing rain and snow showers. At least it won't be 12-18 degrees for a change. I just don't want to do hc for 2.5 hours on the rollers or trainer. I looked at my computer during trainer class this morning and saw that it has recorded 820 miles since january 1st. All but about 4 rides have been indoors this year.


    The stories came after but the smoking hot women were on the ride. I tried to spare you from that.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  24. #199
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Day 3 of the camp complete with 3 hours of riding. Another great day with temps in the low 60s and sunny. I needed the camp and riding with the group to get ready for my first race of the season on Saturday. Today's lecture was provided by a sports psychologist. There were a few pearls that came from the discussion and food for thought. The rain is coming back so we will be on the trainer most of the week however, that is okay by me since we need a recovery from the camp.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #200
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I was 172 this morning with a BP of 122/76 and resting HR of 61. I slept okay but woke up early. I am definitely fatigued. Training camp = success.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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