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  1. #2376
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    From the master of pain cave, absolutely true:
    And it's one of those areas that you have to train up, independent of the building of the strength you need. When I first started really getting into the pain cave area, after initailly just falling apart at what now would be the start (I really and truly sucked), I'd "cave into the cave". I'd back off, and go off the back. That still happens, but I'm able to more frequently keep it going, and often that is rewarded when the pack (who you know is also suffering) eases off and you are able to recover. Sometimes they don't, and the muscles win the battle with the brain. But it helps me, when I sense the legs starting to really protest, to push the power back up where it needs to be, and get into a "hell, I can do this. I can do this all the damned day. See? I'm nice and smooth and just trucking along." I guess lying to your legs works sometimes.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  2. #2377
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    So, when that breakaway put all the time on the TT guys, were you part of the break, or were you one of the TT guys? I know you like to be out front, but you also do pretty darned well at TT's.
    I went 31:24 last year, funky early season legs, throw a blanket over 3rd-6th with me at 6th, teammate who won today was 2nd.

    Yep, I was in that break to force the other teams to chase, rest of the team was supposed to just sit back and go for the ride but started blocking and we got way up the road. I got popped on the climb, came back and helped chase, we got close and our non GC guy bridged rather than help finish closing (another mix up) and rather than chase our own guy we just kinda shrugged.

    The GC leader's team was shot, no one else was doing anything, so the gap got big and our guy that bridged didn't even win.

    Double flatted in the crit with two to go.

    Oh well. Wanted to do the 50+ but I figured I'd take one for the team so I did the 40+.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 02-10-12 at 07:50 PM.

  3. #2378
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi AzTR,

    I did give you a finger wave -- no, not that finger -- as I went by. I didn't want to create too much drag waving with my hand.

    I was shooting for 35:00 after doing a 36:11 last year. I ended up with a 35:35. I am 14th, 1 sec behind 13th. If I'd hit my target time I still would have been 13th. Looking at my data, I never hit Z4 (based on HR) and I dipped into Z2 a couple of times when I started "daydreaming" (losing focus). I'm feeling the effort a bit as I type. We'll see how tomorrow goes.

    Racer Ex, I got talked into doing 40+ last year and I really regretted doing it after the TT. Even more so after each succeeding stage. No one was going to talk me into 45+ this year.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  4. #2379
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    The RR was fun. Alas, no podium for me, but I was there for the finish with roughly half the starters. I wouldn't call what I did a sprint, however. It was more a "hang on up the hill and don't get dropped at the very end." No results until later, but I think I was about 12th.

    The first climb, at the end of lap 1, turned out to be the hardest, and it split the pack. I averaged 350w for the (2.5 mile) heart of it, and, after glancing at my computer a couple of times, decided that was a bad idea, since if it could, it would have just been flashing Danger! Danger! Danger! I was in the second group as we crested. I had been working to hold the guys I was with (Cleave was there too), but 7 or so guys up broke off the front. Fortunately, we worked together (kind of, anyway, and I did my share of work) and we caught them just after turn 2. Second climb was more sedate, at 294w, and thus ended lap 2.

    I counted the group somewhere in lap 3 and there were 16 of us, and a couple of those were 65+. This is where it got entertaining. One dude kept lecturing the pack because we didn't let him just ride away solo. Actually, we never really had to chase him down, because he would go up maybe 30 yards, then look around, slow down, and tell us we didn't know how to race. I went after him once, and when we were away clean, but he was slowing, asked him "Yes or No?". I thought it too early to go solo, but was willing if there was help. Instead, he proceeded to ask me why I chased him down, when the GC leader was back there in the pack. Um, yeah. I knew that. We were leapfrogging with the 17 year olds, and at one point we were neutralized when the 17 pack came by. Mr. Lecture was maybe 20 yards up, but instead of drifting back, he stayed ahead of the 17s as we were held back. The pack decided that, if that held up, we'd protest. But we ended up passing the 17's again, catching him, and getting another lecture. That's when I finally shut him up by saying "We really don't need a lecture. If you think you can win, then go do it!". The pack liked that.

    So it came down, as expected, to the final climb. That's where I wanted to ride away from everyone into glory, but, well, they had other ideas. I actually did lead up the hill for awhile, holding a decent pace, but they had enough of that at one point, and cranked it up to where all I could do was hang on. I was at the back of the pack as we accelerated to the finish, gave it what I had, and picked off a couple of guys as we spread out based on the kicks we had left. Only second guessing is that I maybe should have taken a flier late in the last lap, before the turn to the climb. But when I run that through the probabilities processor, especially after the fact, they don't look so good. It would have meant (most likely) going solo into the wind, since we had just caught the only other guy interested in a break, then going uphill just after doing that.

    I feel great. Looking forward to the crit finale tomorrow.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  5. #2380
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Always remember, HRM's tell you where you were, not where you are.
    No doubt that it's a trailing indicator, but I've found that it can be a good predictor as well. If my HR is a little high at the start of a workout and it won't go up, i.e. it's not "elastic", then I'm overtired and I need to rest. If it goes up and down quickly after the first effort, then I'm in the groove.

  6. #2381
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Good work, AZT, especially the shut up part. Guys like that amuse me.

  7. #2382
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Nice result AZT.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  8. #2383
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I have a LOT to learn about 55+ racing. This was my 2nd 55+ race and it is much different than the younger categories. It's "only" taking me two race to learn that patience IS a virtue.

    I started near the back and really did intend to just sit in until the climb. Trying to work my way to the front in case someone ramped up the pace (I didn't want to have to close gaps) I was seeing some less than stellar pack skills. It took me 3-4 miles to get near the front and while getting there I was doing more coasting than pedaling. When there was an opening on a gentle descent, I shot through and "cranked up" the pace to like a whole 26 MPH. I pulled a little just to get my legs working and then I drifted toward the centerline, started coasting, and waited...and waited.

    Basically, no one was interested in working until we got to the hill (I guess). I stayed near the front on the climb, followed the race leader when he attacked, and then slowly started to die. AzTR came by and offered his wheel. I took it but couldn't follow it for long. Over the top I wasn't that far behind AzTR's group and I was with 3 other guys but 2 of them weren't interested in trying to catch.

    I'll skip the gory details. In the end I was in the "second" group and ended up 5th out of 6 of us.

    I will say I am shocked as to how poorly most of the people I was with over the course of 2 laps rode a rotating paceline and how many of the people I was with just weren't interested in pulling at all.

    Overall, I learned more about 55+ racing and my fitness deficits at this point in the season. Tomorrow will be interesting.

    AzTr, very nice work on your part. I'll be on your wheel tomorrow.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  9. #2384
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm obviously not the most experienced guy out there, but I decided early on there were a couple of guys I wasn't willing to follow. Early in the race, I even fudged the yellow line to get around one of them who was driving me crazy with his up-and-back and side-to-side, and I concentrated hard on riding as 'smooth' and safe as I could. Moving up during that initial really slow period was difficult, but it opened up later when things finally picked up a bit. The only time our group worked together at all was when we were closing on the leaders and felt we could get to them, and the rotation never lasted very long. But I guess the lead group wasn't cooperating well either, or we never would have caught them. I could see them up there bunching up. I guess I'm guilty of non-cooperation also, because when I'd get hung out pulling by the next guy not coming around, it was awhile before I'd try it again.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  10. #2385
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Yep, I was 12, and am sitting at 18 in the GC. Guy ahead is 17s up; guy behind is only 3s down. Cleave is 44s ahead of me.

    Turns out there were bad crashes yesterday in the 3's and the P/1. The P/1 had 3 guys go down, which held up and shortened other races as they got them to the hospital. Still don't know who it was. Cat3 guy has some bad breaks. Sad.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  11. #2386
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Teammates are now 1 & 3 on GC in the 45. I feel unneeded.

  12. #2387
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    All done. Cleave and I finished mid pack today. I was positioned well with 3 to go but lost that somehow. I ended up 17 in the GC. I feel good about it. Can't wait for the Tucson Bicycle Classic
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  13. #2388
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Teammates are now 1 & 3 on GC in the 45. I feel unneeded.
    They're probably thinking you could have had a podium sweep.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  14. #2389
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Question for you TTers: why the low cadence? Seems like a lot of guys are in the 80's or low 90's at the most. Power sweet spot? Wind resistance from peddling?
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  15. #2390
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Question for you TTers: why the low cadence? Seems like a lot of guys are in the 80's or low 90's at the most. Power sweet spot? Wind resistance from peddling?
    I'm almost always at 100-101. Always. Same with my teammate won won at VOS. We're little guys. But a lot of guys that TT tend to be more biased towards slow twitch fibers and as a result end up in the 80-90 range. That's where they are most efficient.

    I break down a lot of TT files for people and if you have a good sample of efforts you can always find the "sweet spot" for cadence. I try to get my folks to stay within 5 RPM on either side and not let the course dictate their cadence.

    Interesting that Cancellera is a high cadence guy despite his size:



    Another very good clip

  16. #2391
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Based on past quadrant analysis, and where I generally end up when I'm going for power, my sweet spot has been right at 92. But I've noticed I've been pushing the cadence up quite a bit in recent months, and I did the TT at 99. I need to revisit the analysis.

    I'm making good progress in admitting I don't have a problem , and clearly need a TT bike. Next year, I intend to be much further up after the TT.

    By the way, our team, and pretty much all of Arizona, got our hats handed to us. Lots of speed out there, and it was strange watching our fastest guys ride great crit's and finish back in the pack. Lots of ego salving required yesterday. It was like "Uh, Wow..." One of my teammates (Cat4) finished and declared he never even wants to go that fast!

    There is a cyclingnews article on the P-1 crash. A car was let onto the course at a particularly bad time, the driver freaked out and braked, and the guys ran into it at ~30. Car looks like it was hit by another car. Only injury I know for sure about from that one is the broken wrist mentioned in the article, but from that car, there must be more.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  17. #2392
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Where is the cadence police when we need them. There is a racer, Chung (Chang, or Choi - I cannot remember), who argues that cadence is a red herring. And as I remember, so does Coggan. There is a lot of discussion on cadence and power on Google Wattage.

    I agree with R' Ex. I think cadence is very individual and needs to be analyzed. Like everything else in this sport one has to know yourself and what works.

    Having said all that, when I trained with the Russians, we could not spin fast enough to please them. However, this is where there is, IMO, some confusion. Training and racing are two different matters. One has to train to able to spin faster. Spinning faster trains the aerobic and neuromuscular system. The ability to spin fast is a weapon in the arsenal.

    Racing for optimum performance at steady state, one self selects the optimum cadence. And as R'Ex said, this can be based upon analysis of power files.

    For yours truly, I seem to be able to keep my power up at lower cadence. I have tried the 10 mile TTs at difference cadences. However, at lower cadence, my legs tend to load up and I prefer to be on top of the gear. So over time, my sweet spot cadence for TTs is increasing.

    When I am doing a lot of motor pacing at the track, my power sweet spot cadence goes up and I have to be in the drops. So for me, power production at a position and cadence changes depending on training. YMMV.

    Here is one of my favorite Lance videos.

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  18. #2393
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Where is the cadence police when we need them. There is a racer, Chung (Chang, or Choi - I cannot remember), who argues that cadence is a red herring. And as I remember, so does Coggan. There is a lot of discussion on cadence and power on Google Wattage.
    Referencing Lance, Michele Ferrari had a short but pointed article about cadence and muscle fatigue.

    People that discount cadence are funny; they seem to forget that derailleurs were developed not just as a marketing tool. It's been my experience that people can train to efficiency at higher (or probably) lower cadences, certainly I have gone higher over the years as I went from MTB to road to track. And with some exceptions I can watch people climb and tell you who will be there at the end of the race and who won't.

    From a coaching perspective I'd only address it if there might be some benefit to moving the "sweet spot". But I do want to identify that range so that the athlete can be aware when he/she is falling below what's optimal, especially when they are time trialing.

  19. #2394
    Seņor Blues on the path's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    There is a cyclingnews article on the P-1 crash. A car was let onto the course at a particularly bad time, the driver freaked out and braked, and the guys ran into it at ~30. Car looks like it was hit by another car. Only injury I know for sure about from that one is the broken wrist mentioned in the article, but from that car, there must be more.
    I started reading this thread as a 50+er who has fantasies about racing crit, and the training that would go along with that. I know, I know...

    Anyway, this news is really disheartening - sad really. I feel badly for those who were injured.

    I realize there must be inherent dangers and hazards, but this sounds to me to have been completely avoidable. I don't know what is more troublesome, the poor judgement involved in this particular incident, or the future liability issues brought on by incidents like this. It could price the sport out of existence, at least for the typical wage earner.
    IMO, FWIW, CFM, YMMV, E PLURIBUS UNUM

  20. #2395
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Yep, I was 12, and am sitting at 18 in the GC.
    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    All done. Cleave and I finished mid pack today. I was positioned well with 3 to go but lost that somehow. I ended up 17 in the GC. I feel good about it. Can't wait for the Tucson Bicycle Classic
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Teammates are now 1 & 3 on GC in the 45. I feel unneeded.
    Hi,

    I still want to know how a guy from Indiana (Gary Painter) is in such good shape in mid-February at least two years in a row.

    It was great to meet AzTR in-person. It was less fun losing his wheel on the road race climb. Next time I won't try to stay with the race leader when he attacks on a climb.

    The criterium course was fun, a lot of corners and some interesting good lines. People were relatively well-behaved and no one crashed. I sprinted a little and was just behind AzTR at the finish. However, I really should have tried harder as I felt too good at the end. Not enough self-confidence in my physical ability and a little too much fear in being more aggressive.

    Racer Ex, I thought you raced for UC Cyclery? The Echelon guys took GC honors but the UC Cyclery guys looked dominant at the end of the 45+ criterium.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  21. #2396
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Racer Ex, I thought you raced for UC Cyclery? The Echelon guys took GC honors but the UC Cyclery guys looked dominant at the end of the 45+ criterium.
    Both. SoCal stuff with UC, NorCal and selected stage races with Echelon. The dual team thing worked well with Echelon and Joe's, hopefully it will do so here as well.

    Teammate from UC won the crit

  22. #2397
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Saturday - I rode the TT bike and did some high intensity efforts to wake up the fast twitch fibers from winter hibernation - one pursuit, one kilo and one 500 meters each with a max effort standing start. It was a little ugly but i needed it.

    Sunday 2:45 endurance ride with some extended z3 efforts.

    Monday - Massage

    Tuesday - Track day with motor pacing. 23 minutes behind the motor warming up in 80 gear inches, 2x12 lap motor paced efforts in 90 gear inches with the first one in the drops and the second one on aerobats. One full power standing start 1/2 lap power effort and a 10 lap warm down. All the efforts felt very good.

    I will be in LA Thursday through Sunday training and racing at the Home Depot Center.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #2398
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Random responses:

    Both videos are great. My takeaways are that those guys are obviously really good and smooth (doh), the difference in cadence between Lance and Jan is dramatic, and I can't believe how stationary Lance is. Even his mouth stays open the exact same amount. And when he goes OTS, his head doesn't even move a cm.

    Ex, if I read what you're saying correctly, then it is a rare bird that will be hurt by increasing his/her cadence as power requirements go up, and if you see someone grinding on the flats, you expect them to be dropped on the climbs.

    I tried looking at quadrants and scattergraphs, and basically got nowhere with it this time. But if I'm reading them and myself accurately, I should now focus on a range centered about 96 rpm. And I may invest in one of those heads up displays CDR has writtena bit about: anything to help my sprint. Light blinks: shift! Light blinks: shift! They aren't that expensive...

    Cleave! Really enjoyed meeting you and racing with you. Hope we can do it again, especially once I've gotten to where I can consider thinking about how best to work together. There is a reason that doesn't happen much until the higher cat's. Too much to learn and consider until then.

    Ex, your teammate that won the crit was really trucking at the end.

    I found what I think is a great deal on a 61cm S-Works Transition frameset, and it's even local. But when I corresponded with the guy, the seat height was maxed out for him, a couple cm's below where I need it to be, which is 88-89 cm above the BB. grumble grumble... sounds like a Cervelo P2 may be one of the few that I can make work. I think it will have at least 5mm to spare. By replacing what was on the old bike that wasn't D/A, and putting it on the new Madone, then combining other shelf stuff, I'll be able to outfit a TT frame with Ultegra. Brifters were the most damaged, and well, as I recently realized, those don't go onto a TT bike. Amazing how things like this work out.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  24. #2399
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by on the path View Post
    I started reading this thread as a 50+er who has fantasies about racing crit, and the training that would go along with that. I know, I know...

    Anyway, this news is really disheartening - sad really. I feel badly for those who were injured.

    I realize there must be inherent dangers and hazards, but this sounds to me to have been completely avoidable. I don't know what is more troublesome, the poor judgement involved in this particular incident, or the future liability issues brought on by incidents like this. It could price the sport out of existence, at least for the typical wage earner.
    That's why we have USAC. Sanctioned races are covered by USAC liability insurance, everyone signs waivers, and when liability is spread over the entire population and season, there just aren't so many that it's a huge issue. That's my take anyway.

    This was a horrible looking crash, since guys went into the back of a car at ~30mph. The injuries are surprisingly minor for that having happened. According to the father of one of them, everyone will be back racing soon.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    That's why we have USAC. Sanctioned races are covered by USAC liability insurance, everyone signs waivers, and when liability is spread over the entire population and season, there just aren't so many that it's a huge issue. That's my take anyway.

    This was a horrible looking crash, since guys went into the back of a car at ~30mph. The injuries are surprisingly minor for that having happened. According to the father of one of them, everyone will be back racing soon.
    Thx for the info and the update. I wouldn't want to minimize the pain and recovery the riders are dealing with, but it's great news that they will apparently be back on their bikes soon.
    IMO, FWIW, CFM, YMMV, E PLURIBUS UNUM

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