Red Rider

That's how I felt on Tuesday's ride. I wasn't on a MUP but had a couple "holy cow!" moments on the same roads as I had some "WTF am I going to get home?" moments on Sunday's ride.

Red Rider

Tonight was essentially a recovery ride. We had a triathlete, a CAT3 racer, a CAT4ever racer (moi) and a real newbie, so we had her take short pulls, and had a beginner echelon segment. We stuck together, with 3 of us taking longer pulls (and we were fine with that), but except for one downwind sprint w/my CAT3 friend, there was no effort/training at all. The ride wasn't without benefit, however, as I rode 4th in the echelon, and thus closest to the yellow line. Way, way out of my comfort zone ( as one who hugs the fogline) so that was some of my training tonight.

If I'm not learning or reaping some benefit from a ride, I'm doin' it wrong.

qcpmsame 

Back to building a base of quality miles. I.V. Infusion Treatment for MRSA is done and I am released to ride. Rode Wednesday, felt weak but, glad to be back. Yesterday I was grounded as the P.I.C.C. line was taken out in the P.M. and has to seal up the vein for 24 hours. Riding today on some rolling hills. Y'all take care and keep up the reports and advice.

Bill

shovelhd

billydonn,

It's really hard to say whether it's increased fitness or fatigue that is keeping your heart rate down. It could realistically be either. You're in Nebraska, and from what I remember Nebraska doesn't have hills. I would try and go flat out, into a headwind if you can, for five minutes. Flat out RPE. If it hurts like heck and your heart rate stays flat, it's fatigue. If your heart rate goes up and stays steady to within 20% of your max, it's fitness, and you need to train harder.

That's my two cents.

Hermes

Billydonn: Put on the power tap and do a 20 minute test going as hard as you can and measure both HR and Power. Compare that power and HR to the indoor trainer section. Determine your threshold power by taking 90% of your maximum 20 minute power and set your power zones. Use power zones versus HR. I do not wear my HR monitor unless I am on the trainer and trying to gage how my power has changed at z2 HR.

Also, you claim to be taking Androgel which is banned substance by USADA and performance and recovery enhancing. Since your doc prescribed it, I would ask him about Androgel's impact on your HR.

VanceMac

Another great date night with Roger. Intervals are different every time... he must have a huge database of workouts. No Cleave; I'm sure he is tapering for TTT states.

Racer Ex 

My experience is that for most riders indoor vs. outdoor numbers are, while not apples and oranges, at least Granny Smith and Gala. For the most part even the best indoor set up has 02 and heat implications that generally drop power at the same HR and PE from outdoor rides, anywhere from 5-15% depending on the individual.

This may be part of what you're experiencing. And yes, the PT would be very helpful in testing this and your fitness gains in the "real world".

There are a lot of factors that can influence HR BTW, which is why power>HR.

Hermes

BD has a very good power and HR database from riding indoors albeit in a garage with a lot of other riders and no fan for cooling. So the comparison between indoor and outdoor may be like apples and oranges. My experience is along the lines of Racer Ex's post. My HR tends to be lower indoors but creeps up for the same power production over time as my body temperature rises. My perceived effort to produce 200 watts indoors is harder than outdoors for example. And I usually have my wife training next to me and she is an oxygen hog.

Generally, I assume that my power produced on the trainer is about 10% lower than I could produce on the road for the same level of effort and I have an excellent set up for indoor training with lots of fans in a big room with only one other rider. So ambient temperature, O2 and humidity are not too distorted.

This discussion goes all over the map when others chime in with experience from power is power is power to it is easier on the trainer than outside. My conclusion is that it is an individual thing and a lot has to do with mental attitude as well as ambient surrounding and technical setup. I think the trainer / rollers are just harder and I am sticking to it.

As an interesting story... I had a coach who prescribed indoor z4 power intervals at 100 rpm. I just could not do it. I told him that the trainer feels harder. He said power is power is power whether on the road or on the trainer. About a month later, I was still having trouble with the 100 cadence z4 intervals. I asked him how he did at 100 cadence on the trainer at z4 power. His response was he could not do it either. You know, there are times one wants to pull out ones hair. The following year he capitulated that the trainer is 7 to 10% harder.

So BD, I think a comparison is still a good thing to do with the caveat that the indoor versus outdoor numbers may be off. However, one would think you could hit better power numbers outside than inside and certainly raise your HR up to lactate threshold both inside and outside.

billydonn

Oh, we have more hills than you think and I've definitely been stronger (lower HR and at least as fast) on my little regular training hills. Yesterday to finish a three-hour ride I rode for nearly an hour into a 15-25 mph headwind... and it beat the crap out of me even though my HR was not too high and my pace was okay, at least by historical comparison. I know I can hold speed into wind better than last year, but suddenly the HR will not come up to give me even more power.

Hermes... I'll put the Powertap wheels on today and report in... I rode into that wind yesterday for a long time barely getting into zone 3 (according to Strava anyway) and I would guess I was making good power. It just feels somehow that another gear isn't there right now that should be. Your point about using power is well taken. There are all sorts of things that influence HR including hydration and nutrition... in fact I stopped for a gel about 20 minutes before finishing my ride yesterday and felt somewhat better.

Provisionally, my theory as of now is that I AM fitter but have some fatigue going on and it is time for an easier week. (I'm also prone to these little bronchial infections that might not even be noticed if you weren't training, so that's another thing I'm keeping an eye on.)

I'll report back .... and thanks for the advice to all... it's really appreciated.

AzTallRider

I know people who, having built up their metabolic efficiency with lots of base, find it difficult to get their HRs up in the high range outside of a race situation. So, as Shovel has suggested, you need to do some testing at extremely high RPE, or race a crit.

If it kills you, then I didn't say this.

shovelhd

You irresponsible cad.

Racer Ex 

The moderator can fix this problem. But rememebr, one day I will ask you to return this favor...

AzTallRider

It's always good to know someone in a position of power <pun intended>.

Hermes

Gold!

sarals 

You guys...

+2 on the "indoor" vs. "outdoor". I feel I'm working my little tookus off on the spin trainer (and I am!), but my heart rate rarely gets above 140, and usually stays in the low 130's. On the road, in z4 land, it's 140 - 155, with z5 hitting at around 158 or so. THAT level feels just like the indoor 140 rate. Oh, yes, it hurts!

Speaking of spin, this morning I went out at 0530, as I promised myself, and put in an hour of efforts (14 miles, but that distance doesn't matter). My spin instructor has been on an "isolation" kick as of late - sort of a semi-squat while off the saddle. Today, the tops of my thighs really stung from that silliness, and I just couldn't push the pedals without some major owwie. The result - slower speeds on sprints and shorter endurance on efforts. After the ride I told my instructor about it; she claimed it would help in my climbing. Okay, but I have to be able to move my legs to climb, right? I know - STFU....

AzT - thanks!!

RR - kill it, lady!!!

AzTallRider

She may be right. I know that, if I'm in a race with climbs, and I've been working really hard while seated trying to stay attached, when I stand up for the last gasp effort, I really feel that 'top of the thighs" pain. If I've been doing some standing all along, it isn't as pronounced. I suspect that pain she caused could have some benefits when you are climbing in the race, and telling yourself "I will NOT be dropped".

sarals 

I agree, AzT. I have the same symptoms if I stay seated during a climb. It has been through the spin class that I've gotten to where I can stay off the saddle for extended periods during climbing, and she knows that. She's trying to help - and, simply - no pain, no gain, right?

Allegheny Jet

During our indoor training sessions we worked up to 9' OTS mixing up hands on tops and drops and cadences of 70, 75 and 80. We also used 8" risers under the front wheel to put the bike in a climbing position I found that the burning on the thighs above the knees would go away or at least not be a limiter of performance. That might why Jens tells his legs to STFU.

billydonn

Took the day off today except for some core work in the gym, and will take the Powertap bike out tomorrow for some testing. In the past I've been able to ride without real problems, both indoor and out, well into the HR 150+ range but now I feel a lot of stress pushing past 130. For the last month I've just been trying to log a lot of low-intensity outdoor miles (which I don't enjoy very much) and I think I've probably inadvertently overtrained. Nearly every day here there is significant wind and I think I tend to fight too hard against it... have been doing some moderate intensity hill repeats lately too. I enjoy that more than just accumulating time on the bike.

No crits for me thanks, but tomorrow I plan to step on the gas a bit and see what the Powermeter and HRM have to say. Subjectively I have been feeling fine, like the power is there... until the HR 130 rev limiter kicks in for the last couple rides. On one of the standard local hills that used to spike my HR quickly I've been going up it much more easily... ergo, must be making about the same power with lower HR... which I would think is a good thing.

Perhaps about one hour of LSD warmup tomorrow and then some hill repeats would be the ticket. I will report in.

And thanks again for the input, all.

Allegheny Jet

Tonight's easy spin ride was one of those joy days. Weather was 90 degrees and it started raining 1/2 hr into the one hour ride. Pedaling seemed effortless. After three hard days of riding I didn't expect to have legs. Last night's sprint work killed my spirit. I had to ride off a 4-5% hill onto a flat @ 30+ mph then launch my best sprint for 15" for two sets of five. I never would have thought 2 and a half minutes work could be so hard Early tomorrow 8 - 10 guys are meeting in the Cementary for 3 x 20" Graveyard Crits. Hope I have my legs and a few of those 1,200W sprints left.

Allegheny Jet

Welcome back Bill. Careful that you don't push yourself into a set back. Looking forwards to your reports.

Cleave

Actually I was participating in our one and only team practice session. Fortunately, three of us have been riding and racing together for 15 years and the same three have done this TTT four times. Heading for bed shortly.

sarals 

Tomorrow morning 0530 for the "before work" training ride. I hope to average better than this tomorrow morning.

Bedtime...0530 is early, no matter what anyone says!

chasm54

First day of my tour. Ninety miles on a heavyweight touring bike with about 30 pounds of gear makes for a decent workout, especially as the middle section involved a few thousand feet of climbing. A couple of weeks of this won't do me any harm, to say the least. And the weather, after the wettest early Spring on record, has turned glorious. The North York Moors were magnificent today.

And a nod to Racer Ex's "my brain is full" thread. I managed to leave my Blackberry behind in the first place I stopped to buy food. They found it, and are keeping it for me, so it isn't a total disaster, but I shall be without it for the duration of the trip. The iPad (great item for touring, btw) keeps me connected to the rest of the world, but still...Doh!

sarals 

Got up at 0530 to go ride, got dressed, grabbed a water bottle and my GPS, opened the back door - and it's raining....

Spent 20 minutes on the trainer instead of the road, and then took a nice shower. At least the morning wasn't a total bust....