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  1. #1
    Email for new group DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Just hanging out shooting the bull

    Moderators Note from Racer EX:

    Welcome to what was the stand alone 50+ racing sticky.

    DnvrFox was good enough to start this thread which has morphed into a sub forum for masters racers.

    There's a lot of training and other racing information in here, please feel free to use the search function for something in particular or just enjoy the general banter.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 07-12-12 at 11:26 AM.
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  2. #2
    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
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    Like you- I am not into racing and only did a bit in the past.

    But there are sufficient 50+ers that do enjoy this form of masochism to be able to pass on their racing/training tips.
    How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


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  3. #3
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Works for me!
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I couldn't find the "Yes" option on the poll. Would known dopers like The Weak Link be banned?
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  5. #5
    Email for new group DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I couldn't find the "Yes" option on the poll. Would known dopers like The Weak Link be banned?
    I wouldn't want to get a reputation for writing polls. Doesn't everyone who races bikes dope? And those that don't race? Personally, I dope with OJ.
    Gone - email me at dnvrfox@aol.com for new group of old 50+ folks

  6. #6
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    Doesn't everyone who races bikes dope?
    I didn't dope when I ran track in college when many others did. Maybe I'm spending my $ on the wrong things?
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  7. #7
    Email for new group DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I didn't dope when I ran track in college when many others did. Maybe I'm spending my $ on the wrong things?
    Did you win? I still prefer OJ - and it is not found by drug tests!
    Gone - email me at dnvrfox@aol.com for new group of old 50+ folks

  8. #8
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    Did you win? I still prefer OJ - and it is not found by drug tests!
    Never won. I was 5th, 2nd and 3rd at NCAA National Champs, close but no cigars. I'll have to try the OJ.

    Now-a-days I do things like this in lieu of doping : http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8195197/
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  9. #9
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Now-a-days I do things like this in lieu of doping : http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8195197/
    Your best yet, Jet. Watched it all the way through a second time and laughed just as hard.

    ""You are 57 years old. Grow up. Are you stupid?"
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  10. #10
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Your best yet, Jet. Watched it all the way through a second time and laughed just as hard.

    ""You are 57 years old. Grow up. Are you stupid?"
    Too much of that movie is based on real life action.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

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    I think it's a great idea. I just started racing this year, at 62, and have a lot to learn. So here's the first serious training/racing question in this thread: At our age how many hard (LT and above) workouts a week do you experienced racers do at this time of year? (Assuming your racing season is still 3 months or more in the future)
    Facts are stubborn and inconvenient things

  12. #12
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Never won. I was 5th, 2nd and 3rd at NCAA National Champs, close but no cigars. I'll have to try the OJ.

    Now-a-days I do things like this in lieu of doping : http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8195197/
    That was a great movie and may be your best.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  13. #13
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I just returned from a trip to Los Angeles to drop off some track bikes and train at Los Angeles Velodrome in Carson, CA. I had a great time at the sessions and had the opportunity to ride with Cleave, meet a couple more of his team members and see some friends. Both sessions were run by Roger Young which consisted of 2 intervals with (4x1 minute at z2, z3, z4, z3, z2 z1) and a 50 lap motor pacing session.
    Last edited by Hermes; 12-31-10 at 11:05 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #14
    Senior Member George's Avatar
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    Thanks DF, I don't race,but I wish I could. I like reading about the old guys giving it all they got, for the love of the sport.
    George

  15. #15
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milmo View Post
    I think it's a great idea. I just started racing this year, at 62, and have a lot to learn. So here's the first serious training/racing question in this thread: At our age how many hard (LT and above) workouts a week do you experienced racers do at this time of year? (Assuming your racing season is still 3 months or more in the future)
    Our season starts tomorrow, January 1 with the hill climb up Mount San Bruno. I did the race last year but not this year. I am not doing much intensity right now and focusing on strength, core and endurance. However, some z4 and higher, IMO, is okay right now.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  16. #16
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milmo View Post
    I think it's a great idea. I just started racing this year, at 62, and have a lot to learn. So here's the first serious training/racing question in this thread: At our age how many hard (LT and above) workouts a week do you experienced racers do at this time of year? (Assuming your racing season is still 3 months or more in the future)
    Right now, I am barred from anything above z3, by my coach, who Hermes has given the title She Who Must Be Obeyed. I think mine is a more extreme limitation than most coaches use in the base period, but this is my first season, and I had been going hard in the past without ever having built any kind of base. I've only been on a road bike since last March, so I think you'd characterize what I'm doing now as taking basic algebra in college, after having ditched math in high school.

    Today, as a New Year's gift from SWMBO, I was supposed to be able to ride with my group, for the first hour of the Sat ride, going just hard enough to keep from being dropped, then go off by myself for another 3 hours. But I got a new seat to relieve perineal distress, was installing it, and I broke the bolt in my seat post clamp with my gargantuan strength. I was trying to make sure my 210# body didn't cause it to self-adjust. Grrrrrr. I got a bolt that will work temporarily at Lowe's this morning, but it means I'll be doing my 4 hour base ride today alone, and only in zones 1-3. Hopefully with a seat below me the whole time.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  17. #17
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milmo View Post
    So here's the first serious training/racing question in this thread: At our age how many hard (LT and above) workouts a week do you experienced racers do at this time of year? (Assuming your racing season is still 3 months or more in the future)
    My racing season will begin in April. I may do several races in March and early April but will use them as training efforts. Even when the racing season begins most of the races will be training races where I work on some specific part of racing. For instance, in a local circuit race I may ride the Cat 4 race as a warmup sitting in until the final sprint, then 45 minutes later I'll race with the Masters and work as a team with some or our Cat 3 guys who are 35+ yrs.

    Currently I'm beginning the 2nd month of base and not doing any sustained Z4 riding. Most of my road or mtb rides are designed to have an extended Z3 effort of 1.5 hrs+. As the season goes on the weekly Z3 efforts will be increased to 2.5 hrs. I suspect my coach will start to prescribe some Z4 overgear hill intervals sometime this month. Z5 hills and other Z5 intervals are not part of the training until the racing begins due to the length of the season. As the racing season progresses the workouts are shorter with more and more Z4 intervals, Z5 hills and sprint work. I am best at sprinting in crits and circuit races and the workouts are made to take advantage of the strengths and improve weaknesses.

    I do attend a twice a week 2 hr indoor training class that focuses on high cadence, over gear and isolated leg exercises. We do have some drills and intervals in the class that will take us into Z4 and even some short sprint efforts that are at a Z5 effort. We also do a lactate tempo ladder that hurts like hell every time that takes the HR to the bottom of Z5 at the end. In that drill we ride in the 53/23 @ 100 rpm for the first 55 seconds then 5 seconds @ 120 rpm. The drill is constant and every minute we drop 5 seconds of the 100 cadence and add 5 seconds to the 120 cadence eventually working to 0 seconds @ 100 and 60 seconds @ 120 rpm. That drill will open your lungs and burn the legs like a race will.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  18. #18
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    Allegheny, AZ thanks for the replies. As a newbie I'm trying to figure out a cycling plan to get me in shape first for some late April through early June races, then again for a Columbus Day race. There'll be one or two in between but those wouldn't be "A" races.

    Allegheny, I'm in awe at your college running accomplishments. I started running at 30 and continued through my mid 40s. I eventually figured out a yearly progression that worked for me, but it was sort of the opposite of what most people who write on cycling, like Joe Friel, recommend. I focused on short races first, doing just enough distance to handle the fast tempo runs and intervals necessary to train for 1 to 5 mile races, then around July I started to stretch that speed out for half marathons and a marathon. Even though it's now been a while since I was a runner it's hard for me to the "get fast then get long" template out of my mind when I think about the bike. It just seems natural to do a couple hard workouts a week even though it's only early winter.

    I'm indoors almost exclusively since I'm in Massachussets. In general I'm doing one longish z5a session, at LT HR for 50 to 60 minutes straight; one interval set that at points gets to z5b (in the Joe Friel/Gale Bernhardt nomenclature); and one longish z3 workout, now at about 2 to 2.5 hours each week. The other days are z1/z2 recovery at an hour or less. I do a couple weeks like that then take an easier week with maybe one hard session, maybe none, then start the three week cycle again. Each cycle the z3 day gets a little longer as do some of the z1/z2 days and I try to get the over the ground speed of the long z5a day up just a bit while keeping HR at LT, but that doesn't always work.

    If I understand your lactate tempo effort you're going 12 minutes straight, no interval, building to 60 seconds at 120rpm. Yeah, I can see that's a bit intense in least few minutes. That's the kind of "base building" that makes sense to me.

    Thanks again to both of you, and if our zone designations aren't in sync please let me know.
    Facts are stubborn and inconvenient things

  19. #19
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milmo View Post
    So here's the first serious training/racing question in this thread: At our age how many hard (LT and above) workouts a week do you experienced racers do at this time of year? (Assuming your racing season is still 3 months or more in the future)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I am not doing much intensity right now and focusing on strength, core and endurance. However, some z4 and higher, IMO, is okay right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Currently I'm beginning the 2nd month of base and not doing any sustained Z4 riding. Most of my road or mtb rides are designed to have an extended Z3 effort of 1.5 hrs+. As the season goes on the weekly Z3 efforts will be increased to 2.5 hrs. I suspect my coach will start to prescribe some Z4 overgear hill intervals sometime this month. Z5 hills and other Z5 intervals are not part of the training until the racing begins due to the length of the season. As the racing season progresses the workouts are shorter with more and more Z4 intervals, Z5 hills and sprint work.

    I do attend a twice a week 2 hr indoor training class that focuses on high cadence, over gear and isolated leg exercises. We do have some drills and intervals in the class that will take us into Z4 and even some short sprint efforts that are at a Z5 effort. We also do a lactate tempo ladder that hurts like hell every time that takes the HR to the bottom of Z5 at the end. In that drill we ride in the 53/23 @ 100 rpm for the first 55 seconds then 5 seconds @ 120 rpm. The drill is constant and every minute we drop 5 seconds of the 100 cadence and add 5 seconds to the 120 cadence eventually working to 0 seconds @ 100 and 60 seconds @ 120 rpm. That drill will open your lungs and burn the legs like a race will.
    Hi milmo,

    The short answer in none (at least intentionally). My zone training is based on heart rate and for me zone 4 (around LT) starts at 159 bpm. I set an artificial "redline" of 155 bpm when I'm on the road. (When I'm on the track I don't have time to look at my computer.)

    For example, on my 70 mile New Year's Day ride with clubmates (some of whom race), I had zero mile in zone 4. My track workout last Thursday had 35 seconds in zone 4. This time of year is pretty much base miles with a focus on leg speed and good pedaling technique.

    BTW, my first races will be this month, but I don't race seriously until late March. Then the real fun begins.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milmo View Post
    Allegheny, AZ thanks for the replies. As a newbie I'm trying to figure out a cycling plan to get me in shape first for some late April through early June races, then again for a Columbus Day race. There'll be one or two in between but those wouldn't be "A" races.

    Allegheny, I'm in awe at your college running accomplishments. I started running at 30 and continued through my mid 40s. I eventually figured out a yearly progression that worked for me, but it was sort of the opposite of what most people who write on cycling, like Joe Friel, recommend. I focused on short races first, doing just enough distance to handle the fast tempo runs and intervals necessary to train for 1 to 5 mile races, then around July I started to stretch that speed out for half marathons and a marathon. Even though it's now been a while since I was a runner it's hard for me to the "get fast then get long" template out of my mind when I think about the bike. It just seems natural to do a couple hard workouts a week even though it's only early winter.

    I'm indoors almost exclusively since I'm in Massachussets. In general I'm doing one longish z5a session, at LT HR for 50 to 60 minutes straight; one interval set that at points gets to z5b (in the Joe Friel/Gale Bernhardt nomenclature); and one longish z3 workout, now at about 2 to 2.5 hours each week. The other days are z1/z2 recovery at an hour or less. I do a couple weeks like that then take an easier week with maybe one hard session, maybe none, then start the three week cycle again. Each cycle the z3 day gets a little longer as do some of the z1/z2 days and I try to get the over the ground speed of the long z5a day up just a bit while keeping HR at LT, but that doesn't always work.

    If I understand your lactate tempo effort you're going 12 minutes straight, no interval, building to 60 seconds at 120rpm. Yeah, I can see that's a bit intense in least few minutes. That's the kind of "base building" that makes sense to me.

    Thanks again to both of you, and if our zone designations aren't in sync please let me know.
    My event in college was the decathlon with the longest event taking around 4.5 minutes. Bicycle racing is much different since there is no resting between events which is why we need to train differently. In a crit I may have to do 10 to 20 really hard efforts over the 45 minute race then let it all out out in the sprint. Compared to running a crit is a 10K run at tempo with attacks that you must respond to then save enough of yourself to be able to run an all out 300m to the finish. Training for cycling races needs to take into account the type of racing you will do. For me it's crits, circuit races and road races.

    Your workouts seem a little heavy on the hard stuff for this early in your season. I don't see any technique work in your schedule. Here is my workout for this week the first week in the newest cycle:

    Monday, 1-3: AM: Bike – Rollers. WU in the little ring for 15 min to a low Z3 HR, this by dropping down a cog every 3-5 min and holding the same cadence. Main set is a long OG where you’re holding great form with NO bobbing or weaving from side to side. Do this OG for 45 min solid, changing hand positions from tops, hoods, drops and no handed. When no handed try to remain nice and still. You can even hold your hands behind your back like a speed skater. Do several min per hand position. WD 15 min doing the reverse of the WU. Resistance – Group 1.

    Tuesday, 1-4: Bike – Outside for 2 hrs total. Main set is 1:25 hrs Z3 CT smooth and steady. The rest is Z2 WU and WD. Resistance – Group 2.

    Wednesday, 1-5: Resistance – Group 3. Bike – Excel In Cycling indoor class.

    Thursday, 1-6: Resistance – Group 4.

    Friday, 1-7: Bike – Rollers same as Mon.

    Saturday, 1-8: Bike – Choice: EIC indoors
    .
    Sunday, 1-9: Bike – Outside on X or Mt bike for 2.5 hrs total all HC at 95-110rpm.


    You got it right that the Lactate tempo drill is 12 minutes. At first you may not be able to go all the way through. Our class started out only going to 20/40 then adding 5 more seconds to the 120 rpm side each class.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  21. #21
    Life is good RonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Never won. I was 5th, 2nd and 3rd at NCAA National Champs, close but no cigars. I'll have to try the OJ.

    Now-a-days I do things like this in lieu of doping : http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8195197/
    AJ, I just got a chance to watch the video. It is hilarious.

    Do you "create" those while riding the rollers or do you create them professionally? Whatever, keep them coming.
    BTW, your SO in the video is "hot".
    Last edited by RonH; 01-03-11 at 09:12 AM.
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  22. #22
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Hi milmo,

    The short answer in none (at least intentionally). My zone training is based on heart rate and for me zone 4 (around LT) starts at 159 bpm. I set an artificial "redline" of 155 bpm when I'm on the road. (When I'm on the track I don't have time to look at my computer.)

    For example, on my 70 mile New Year's Day ride with clubmates (some of whom race), I had zero mile in zone 4. My track workout last Thursday had 35 seconds in zone 4. This time of year is pretty much base miles with a focus on leg speed and good pedaling technique.

    BTW, my first races will be this month, but I don't race seriously until late March. Then the real fun begins.
    It was great riding with you at LAV on Tuesday and Thursday. I did the pyramid workout and skipped the motor pacing on Tuesday. On Thursday, I did both. I rode in in Roger's group and my HR, for what it is worth, was 125 to 150. In the 50 lap motor pacing, I was pretty far back in the line so I did not get to the motor until 18 to go. According to my Garmin data, I had 3 minutes of between 160 and 170 bpm. I was using 90.6 gear inches spinning 115 rpm. At the motor, it was hard but I felt fine. It felt like a solid z4. But according to HR data, that would be a z5 or higher for me.

    Needless to say, it was a blast and some of those guys are monsters. I do not think they know it is off season. They were all gearing up in the pit for the motor games.

    My first race this year will be at LAV in the LAVRA cup.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  23. #23
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Thanks, D-Fox. I'll post here whenever I race. Looks like end of Feb., if work doesn't cut into my training.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

    Visit my blog.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I did it!, Took the leaf of faith!, Threw caution into the wind!, Just HTFU'ped! Oh man, the ah-haw moment!

    I finally took my hands off the bar and rode the rollers no-handed. I needed to ride overgear with changes of hand positions that included riding no-handed. I put the rollers in a doorway and moved furniture, covered the floors and put the dog in the laundry room. Did the 15 min. warm up into Z3 as prescribed then started the 45 minute overgear interval. First hand position was drops, then tops, then no-handed and then hoods rotating each position for 3 minutes.

    The first 3 minute no-handed interval was dicey at the start when I let the constant cadence and force dip a little. Once I felt like I was flying on my own the 3 minute interval became easy. On later intervals I was able to make a seamless transition to sitting upright with no hands as long as I concentrated on keeping constant force on the pedals.

    2011 is starting out as a good year.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  25. #25
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I did it!, Took the leaf of faith!, Threw caution into the wind!, Just HTFU'ped! Oh man, the ah-haw moment!

    I finally took my hands off the bar and rode the rollers no-handed. I needed to ride overgear with changes of hand positions that included riding no-handed. I put the rollers in a doorway and moved furniture, covered the floors and put the dog in the laundry room. Did the 15 min. warm up into Z3 as prescribed then started the 45 minute overgear interval. First hand position was drops, then tops, then no-handed and then hoods rotating each position for 3 minutes.

    The first 3 minute no-handed interval was dicey at the start when I let the constant cadence and force dip a little. Once I felt like I was flying on my own the 3 minute interval became easy. On later intervals I was able to make a seamless transition to sitting upright with no hands as long as I concentrated on keeping constant force on the pedals.

    2011 is starting out as a good year.
    I would have to bring in movers and have them cover the floors and walls with the padding they use on the truck with an extra layer on the floor for me. Congrats on the no hands.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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