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  1. #3301
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    AJ, you made me think that it would be nice to have someone watch me while I do sprints, and then evaluate me -"NO, dumbass, do it like THIS..." There's a lot to be said for developing form when you can't really tell what your form is.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  2. #3302
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    One thing I've found is that my sprint form varies from bike to bike. When I was forced back on the Gunnar after not having ridden it, I almost fell off the first time I went OTS hard. The momentum of the weight and high center of gravity almost had me throw it sideways onto the pavement. I adapted to that, and when I got back on a Madone, I again almost threw that bike over because the resistance was less. Now, on the Giant, I don't have near as much side-to-side movement. Not sure yet why, and while it's a faster bike, I'm still sorting out how to sprint smoothly on it.

  3. #3303
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    AJ, you made me think that it would be nice to have someone watch me while I do sprints, and then evaluate me -"NO, dumbass, do it like THIS..." There's a lot to be said for developing form when you can't really tell what your form is.
    The data on your PT is invaluable to see where you have been. I look to see at the end of a sprint I was able to get more rpm's and speed by going OTS, top end speed, and other metrics that allow me to go faster over the interval. In race situations rarely does it ever go as planned which is why you need to adapt to whatever is happening and then modify your attack.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  4. #3304
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    The data on your PT is invaluable to see where you have been. I look to see at the end of a sprint I was able to get more rpm's and speed by going OTS, top end speed, and other metrics that allow me to go faster over the interval. In race situations rarely does it ever go as planned which is why you need to adapt to whatever is happening and then modify your attack.
    Hmmm. I don't break my PT down that comprehensively - I should! I don't use the PT in races, either, I race on different wheels. I should, shouldn't I?
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  5. #3305
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    Hmmm. I don't break my PT down that comprehensively - I should! I don't use the PT in races, either, I race on different wheels. I should, shouldn't I?
    I'm referring to training. I use my PT wheel in training races and look at that data for different reasons. My point is that one needs to practice sprinting different distances and to learn and to get the best result for each distance.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  6. #3306
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I'm referring to training. I use my PT wheel in training races and look at that data for different reasons. My point is that one needs to practice sprinting different distances and to learn and to get the best result for each distance.
    Okay, got it now. I missed the water bottle for the beginning of the sprint that you like to use - I hit on the sign or pole for the end, instead. I like your method! I'm going to adopt it. Thank you, AJ!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  7. #3307
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    It also helps to sprint in practice with others. Sometimes in our Cemetery Crit group rides we break it down to 8-10" races with finish sprints. In that senerio you can take chances on a long flyer or pick a wheel to go around at the line. My team mate who finished 3rd and 2nd in shovelhd's races at the NGS trains with me sometimes. He is usually my lead out in masters races. Joe is a very smart and strong racer. Why is he the leadout? From training together we found that I could go around him at the end of sprints but he usually can't go around me. On short hard hill intervals I also get to the top first. I can't adequately describe the feeling of being on his wheel with 1/2 mile to go in a race. There are so many things I don't need to think about when I'm on Joe's wheel.
    Last edited by Allegheny Jet; 08-11-13 at 10:09 PM.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  8. #3308
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Nice, AJ! I have a friend I train with on occasion. We'e pretty closely matched (except she's a better climber, like most everyone else), but it's 50/50 on sprints. I have led her out, and she's led me out. That is way fun! It's time to structure that, I think. We don't race together (except at the PSG), because she doesn't do USAC events. It would be nice to have her out there, though. I'd love working for her - so she wouldn't have to think!

    Also - I'm looking in earnest for a bona-fide women's team for next year. Racing one up with all of these teams around me in every race is getting old. Yeup, the "silly season" is starting.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  9. #3309
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Next attempt. Note the nasty little climb in there. The descent looks like fun, though!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  10. #3310
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    Next attempt. Note the nasty little climb in there. The descent looks like fun, though!
    Cajole someone to go OTF with you early?

  11. #3311
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Cajole someone to go OTF with you early?
    I'll have two friends in the race. That's a maybe! It depends on my warmup. The climb comes at around 11 miles. If I can get my legs going by then it'll be worth the try.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  12. #3312
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Sara: I am a little familiar with that course. It isn't a particularly long hill, but it juts up pretty steeply in a couple places and it's plenty to force a split if the good climbers feel like it. If you do get split, be careful about trying to catch back on too soon. The descent has some sharp turns and every year some one will get over eager and Hoogerland himself into a barbed wire fence.
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  13. #3313
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    I'm sure you and Ex will develop an appropriate strategy, but for the sake of discussion, and as someone who is sometimes at risk of being dropped on RR climbs, I take one of two approaches:

    Plan A. Attack long before the climb, build a lead, then take the hill with a "measured approach", being careful not to blow up. Your lead will dwindle on the climb, but the goal is of course to not be caught before the crest. Rinse and repeat for lap two. If people know that's what you are doing, they are less likely to chase you down, as most will opt for...

    Plan B. Conserve every single watt you can leading up to the climb, then spend them hanging on as best you can. If you get gapped a little, then use your descent skills, and work with others, to regain the pack.

    Plan C, which you don't have time for, is to work on your climbing to the extent that you hang on the hills without blowing up. Then you have a lot more strategic options on road races, which tactically are almost always dominated by climbs.

    The RR I'm doing the same weekend has a short but steep climb each lap. It's only a couple of hundred feet, but from what I hear it still serves as a "decanter", as Phil likes to say. It's my first time doing that race, and because of my lack of form, I'll be doing Cat 4/5 50+, instead of the normal 50+. I'll be looking at Plan A, with Plan B as the backup. It's Plan B, after all. From what I've been told, it's a Plan B sort of race, which of course means there is a good chance to get away, because everyone will know you are crazy to try it.

  14. #3314
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Good ideas, AzT. Caluso, I've been well briefed on that descent, oh yes.

    Ex has developed a short plan for me to improve 5 minute power a little over the next two weeks. Every little bit will help!

    The course is two laps, twice up that climb. I tend to think conventionally, and my thought was, as it was at Dunnigan, (where I was proved MORE than wrong) that no one would launch any serious attacks on the first lap. Long race and all that. However, I'm getting to know the Cat 4 gals I race with well enough to understand that it's more "waaaa-hoooo"!! than thought. They like testing each other, knowing full well the group will come back together. That kind of shenanigans hurts me, I can't cover attack after attack after attack and survive. I think, if I can get off the front and get two serious riders to come with me just prior to the climb, and we can actually build a gap, that just might be the delaying tactic I need to get to the top before getting swarmed. Then I can use my descent skills to some advantage - maybe. I don't know that I can get away, though (although there is the element of surprise - "Oh, look is Sara REALLY trying to get away?").

    At any rate, it's going to be my last race of the season. I'd like to go out as Jens did, go OTF and try. We'll see if I feel good enough. I will have some fun, though.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  15. #3315
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Talk to Ex about it, but people tend to be wary "just before the climb". Earlier, however, and you may get that "Damn, I knew that girl was crazy." reaction where they let you go. You have good sprint speed, so you may want to get someone else to go OTF, and then you bridge when they have a gap. Bridging is by far the harder of the two tasks. I leave that to Ex when we race together. I can often get away, but bridging instead of dragging the pack up is mouch more difficult. They are more likely to react, and the effort may have to be like a finishing sprint initially. Then you reach the other rider, suck her wheel to recover, and start working together. Build a gap and hold it through the climb.

    Sounds good in theory, huh? LOL

  16. #3316
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Talk to Ex about it, but people tend to be wary "just before the climb". Earlier, however, and you may get that "Damn, I knew that girl was crazy." reaction where they let you go. You have good sprint speed, so you may want to get someone else to go OTF, and then you bridge when they have a gap. Bridging is by far the harder of the two tasks. I leave that to Ex when we race together. I can often get away, but bridging instead of dragging the pack up is mouch more difficult. They are more likely to react, and the effort may have to be like a finishing sprint initially. Then you reach the other rider, suck her wheel to recover, and start working together. Build a gap and hold it through the climb.

    Sounds good in theory, huh? LOL
    Indeed it does! It makes for wonderful "imagineering"!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  17. #3317
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    People tend to shy away from early breaks due to the fact that you need to put in that break-level effort for such a long time. The other side of that coin, however, is that you are forcing the pack to work for a long time as well, to chase you down. You are also able to generate a larger gap than you do in a later break. Particularly in a smaller pack, not as likely to be engaged in true teamwork, there may be only a couple or three people willing to put in the chase effort, so the effort can be reasonably balanced. It becomes you and anyone with you against that small group. You are ahead, and if you can work as hard as they do, you will win. If you get a decent gap, you can also break the elastic and have them decide that racing the pack for 2nd or 3rd is good enough for that day. You aren't likely to do that later in the race. Later in a race, it becomes "can I hold off a 'raging peloton' all the way to the finish?" In your race (and mine) the climb is almost mid-lap. Others may see it differently, but in my book that means the climb may well break up the pack, but getting away there will be harder than before or after. My race is three laps of this:

    http://www.mapmyride.com/us/kachina-...route-62109314

  18. #3318
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I've gone on early breaks and won. I've gone on early breaks and lost by meters. I've gone on early breaks and been chased down within a few laps. There is no recipe for early break success. So much depends on the mood of the field, the size and constituency of the break members, and the will of the break to stay away.

  19. #3319
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Okay, you guys....I'm going to try an early break. Remember, these are Cat 4 women, many of them young-un's (who don't know a thing about "tired") I'm racing with/against/amongst. But, it sounds like a solid idea, and what the hell, it's my last race. I've come a long way this season, I might as well try something daring.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  20. #3320
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    AzT, I was looking at the elevation on your race. 7200 feet? Holy mackerel. Is there any air up there? Your climb looks to be similar to the one I'll be doing, but the descent doesn't look to be as technical. However, at that altitude, wow, it's going to be tough!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  21. #3321
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Almost everyone will be going up there from the valley, so we're all in the same O2 deprived boat.

  22. #3322
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Almost everyone will be going up there from the valley, so we're all in the same O2 deprived boat.
    That's some consolation! Still, that elevation has to hurt.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  23. #3323
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Stop saying that! It's going to feel just grrreaaaattt!

    Recovery ride with TallWife. 92 watts. And I pulled.

  24. #3324
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    Stop saying that! It's going to feel just grrreaaaattt!

    Recovery ride with TallWife. 92 watts. And I pulled.
    Your TSS must have been awesome!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  25. #3325
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Hill repeats X3 this morning along with an hour of pace. I took me a long time to get warmed up. That my brakes were dragging didn't help! The third repeat was the best, but I was still a little below my previous sustained target power. I changed my climbing style just a little later in the ride. I'm trying to stand straighter when OTS, and that so far seems to work. I breathe a little better and my arms and shoulders seem to be more relaxed. I'll keep trying that and see what develops. I've noticed I've sustained an emotional injury from my stupid crash that is bothering me more than any of the physical ills I got from it. I can't figure that out, either, because this has been such a good season. I'm trying to focus on that to get me out of my funk. Kj 594, NP 160, Max Q 642, TSS 123.6, and IF 0.955
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

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