shovelhd

**** shows aren't confined to M4.

VG I was joking about the tough crowd.

sarals 

You are scary.

Okay, I'm a crappy bike handler.

I do NOT disagree with the mentor, she was doing what she thought was right. She had a different view of the field than I did, she was not racing, she was helping. She understood what I was doing but was concerned that some of the other riders wouldn't. I didn't drop out because I thought she was right. I dropped out and because she and I were talking and we got dropped, on a prime lap, on the front 1/3 of the course when the speed was ramping up for the sprint. I didn't think I had the matches to burn to bridge back up and I was pissed...I didn't want to race anymore!

My feeling is if I'm on the back of a small pack, tailgunning effectively, I can change lines in a corner as I need to as long as I don't affect anyone else. If I crash out another rider and go down myself, because of my age, I will get the short end of that stick, and believe you me that's foremost on my mind. I need to go to work on Monday, and the damage to my body from a high speed crash could be a retirement event. When I'm in a big field up in the pack, I'm not aggressive, and I think before I act. That same mindset applies to a small field, except there I tend to sit at the back to try to shelter as much as I can and to use my momentum to keep me attached or allow me to move up. If I have to change a line in a corner to slot into a hole or get on a wheel, if no one is next to me or behind me, I will.

LAJ

This may be true, shovelhd, but in the 55+ race earlier, there was a skirmish in the same corner. It was a tough wreck, with wheels flying, and everything. But it was only limited to the 3 or 4 riders that were in the original incident. There was no panic, no residual piling up after the fact like the 10-12 that went down after a single rider went down to start with in my wreck. I joined the team I am on because of the skills clinics they were known to hold. I figured safety, and good bike handling was a priority. Unfortunately, as is the seeming norm, there was a definite lack of participation.

I have always said, the 45+4 is a scary place to be. It's full of very fit older fellows that have been tri guys, or runners, or have otherwise lived a very fit lifestyle. They decide bike racing is another challenge, as anyone can ride a bike. Being oblivious is optional, but it seems to also be the norm.

Again Sara, none of this was directed at you. I think I just needed to rant, and I apologize.

sarals 

LAJ, no worries. I know that. After what you went through, a rant is fine.

shovelhd

Anyone that struggles to walk deserves to rant every now and then.

The guy that took me out last year was a Polish National Champion. He was on the pointy end of the field and had no business being there. The guy that chopped my wheel at New Britain in the 40K sprint was a Cat4. The guy that chopped my wheel and took me and at least another 10-15 riders down was a Cat3. He was at the pointy end of the field and ended up around 15th. M40+, M50+, M40+.

When I first started racing M45+ at racing age 53 I couldn't believe how clean the riding was. Compared to the Cat3 fields it was night and day. It was very much like the P/1/2/3 fields just a little bit slower. I'm not so sure anymore. I think there are more and more riders racing up in age and probably shouldn't be there, me included. It's getting a little too crazy. Racing the P/1/2 or a fast P/1/2/3 is aggressive but very predictable. Not so much in the M40+.

Cleave

Had a reasonably good day at work after a somewhat tough week at work and continuing dramas with my eldest. On top of that we discovered we have a family of raccoons living in a spa that we have that WAS covered but unused for the past 5+ years. California Fish and Game said that we have to hire someone to "relocate" the family. Raced last weekend and this week and did some training -- mostly to maintain my sanity.

Continuing the experience versus skill thread; up until part way through last year, 50+ was generally open to all categories and 55+ and above was always open to all categories. The straw that broke the camel's back was the St. Patrick's Day race in 2013. There were some lesser incidents up until then but in that race, a 55+ Cat 5 in his first race was around 10th on the last lap going through turn 2 on a 4-corner course. There was video and the guy just lost it coming out of the corner and he took out several people directly and something like 8 people went down. My best racing buddy stayed upright but the rear dropout on his Madone 6 broke.

A number of us had been raising concerns (okay, whining) before that about several near misses and some smaller crashes. That crash plus the video evidence changed almost all 50+ and older races to Cat 1-4 and 45+ and younger to Cat 1-3. Hasn't completely solved the skill issue but it seems to have helped a lot. We could still use some mentored races for all Cat 5 racers. A particular, outspoken promoter used to have mentoring sessions but those disappeared a couple of years ago. Yelling at people during the race has limited effect. I know this through experience.

valygrl stole my long standing line about having to go to work on Monday. I don't think I'm in a different financial situation than the guys who try to stick their front wheel into spaces that aren't sufficient or guys who sweep across the road without considering who is near them. Their red mist must be a lot redder than mine.

A slightly different log on this fire is that apparently there was a crash a couple of weeks ago in one of the older Masters races. I wasn't there but one of the guys (maybe the only guy) who went down complained to the officials about a rider who he claimed caused the crash. The things I've read from others is that guy who went down stuck his front wheel into a space that he shouldn't have. Anyway, the promoter and officials told him that he didn't have a case. What did he do next? He filed a complaint with the local police!

Yesterday, I heard that the city attorney threw out the complaint. Imagine if he hadn't.

sarals 

Seriously?? What a d***!!!!

Up here, NCNCA only has a few "open" Master's women's races. It's 1/2/3 only in all the rest. I've been privileged to race in a couple of Master's crits, and are they solid. That said, there was a crash in the in women's P 1/2/3 M 35+ field at Albany. Even though, from a spectator perspective, the bike handling looked very secure. I guess you never know.

Yesterday, a fine hour in the gym at 0600 before work. Coach has me doing strength training from time to time, and it is enjoyable. I know I;ve done it right when I'm sore the next day. I'm sore today.

Day off the bike today. Other wise, I'd be out there working on my lateral moves, line changes, sudden braking, and other crappy bike handling moves.

Racer Ex 

Haven't raced that much this year but the one's I've done without having Cat5's in there seem to be much better. But I'm mostly at the front of the pack in any case, so I miss a lot of the nonsense. Overall there's a big need for rider training though.

The guy filed a police complaint...no surprise. People are funny. A few years back I was doing a 2 man TT in Texas. We were passing a team going into a right turn and the boneheads missed the turn and went straight instead. Guy ran into me as I was aborting my turn. I stayed up, he didn't. Later he told everyone the crash was my fault.

Doing my opener today for Brentwood. Didn't get to ride this week, in-laws, work, and real estate stuff kept me busy. Not terribly optimistic about having much tomorrow.

shovelhd

What kind of race is it? Good luck no matter what.

Hermes

Course Map - Brentwood Grand Prix

shovelhd

I would kill that course.

revchuck 

Ex - As one of "those" guys, I understand. I'm looking forward to more confidence and less flakiness on my part as I gain experience. I'll be an old, flaky Cat 4 next month, though.

This will be my toughest month of training and racing to date. Now that my coach and I have determined that yeah, I can handle the new training ranges, she's gone into the "Let's see whatcha got!" mode. Lots of over-threshold intervals segueing directly into sprints, more over-threshold intervals, more sprints, rinse and repeat. I'm doing a stage race in M35+ 4/5 on the weekend of 16-17 August, with a 3.2 mile TT, 40 minute crit and 62 mile road race, and on 31 August I'm doing the local association's age-graded championship road race in M60+ (44 miles)...and am planning on riding the Centurion Ironman for it, unless it rains.

To make this tale even stranger, I've decided that I'm going to get into the first breakaway in the mid-month road race, unless the other guys are just obviously way over my level. I'm not betting on it sticking, but I just want to see what it's like. My beginner's reticence has receded a good bit.

shovelhd

I'm not picking on guys in the lower cats. Just because you're a Cat5 doesn't mean you can't handle your bike. I was referring to what I've seen in the M40+ fields lately.

AzTallRider

Looks like a fast and technical combo plate. Definitely not the course you want to be on with 'less-than-stellar' bike handlers, regardless of their cat.

For my contribution to the skills, category and field discussion... as many of you know, I'm someone who jumped into racing with both feet, having extremely limited experience: a year of commuting, with almost no group riding. I started doing that just before starting my cat 5 crit's, which I did over one season in a weekly series. At the same time, I took skills workshops, and worked on my handling skills on my own. But we need to segregate "bike handling", from "knowing the eff to do in a race". I managed to quickly regain the basic handling skills developed in my youth. That helps when stuff happens, but it doesn't keep you from causing stuff to happen. That takes time in races - experience - particularly in learning how to not over-react. It's the reaction that is often the big problem maker. I'm cat4, and have no doubt that, if I made it my priority, I could get my 3. But that wouldn't be fun, because where I belong is in the masters packs. Now, if AZ starts limiting 45+ to 1-3, I'd change my mind about that quickly, because I love those races, and am in no way a liability in them. It's the group where our team dominates, and I love being part of that.

There is no one right path for everyone. Some of us are students of the sport, looking to learn every time we clip in. Others just go out for the race to see what happens. Just like some are out there to participate, or to "do well", while others us are out there to win.

I had a gung ho new teammate, a 4, the definition of squirrily - just could never understand that he was moving laterally in the corners all the time. He'd think people were moving into him, when he was the one. People talked to him about it, especially when he brought down another teammate in a corner which just wasn't problematic. He changed teams after that. Another crit, one of the final laps of the 45+. He is ahead of me and our sprinter/captain/LBS owner. Pack isn't even heating it up yet... he does something "unsmooth" and slides out, sliding across the pack and into the curb, talking I think three people down, two of them his lucky new teammates. He broke himself up pretty bad hitting the curb, and quite frankly, I wouldn't be sad if he doesn't come back, even though I like the guy and led him around a lot when he was on the team. He has good raw ability, but.

My opinion is that we can each find the right path, but only if we are objective about ourselves, and put in the effort to learn the sport.

LAJ

Thank you Sara and shovelhd. All.

I think I've said it, but I really thought I found my home in the 55+ bunch. My initial races with them were more to make sure I didn't endanger anyone, and I think I accomplished that. I know I did, as a matter of fact, as I was actually asked to join a team to race with their 55+ squad.

Like rapwithtom said, we're both much stronger, yet we were pack fodder this season, and we were pack fodder two seasons ago. We all got stronger together, but with that strength, there wasn't much in the way of skills improvement. Slammed on the brakes in corners, no matter where they were in the pack, sprint out, and repeat over and over. Hard to race, and and I said, when I worked to the front, I just didn't have the craft, or the guts to keep it. People would do almost anything to work up to the front, and scary stuff went on. Either way, it is what it is. I signed the waiver, and I certainly knew the risks.

Cleave

That course killed me the last time I did it. The prior version of the course was much more to my liking -- two long straights with 180 degree turns at each end. However, I will be there tomorrow for the 55+/60+ race. Felt really good on the TT bike today. Hopefully that will translate to good feelings tomorrow.

valygrl

Ugh, i wrote a post and accidentally clicked away and lost it.

LAJ, shovel, all - thanks for the supportive comments and interesting discussion. Sarals, I wasn't saying you were a bad bike handler. We can all continue to learn, no matter how long we've been doing this. I'm on season 3 and am definitely still a beginner. Just saying, always good to be open to hearing constructive criticism - processing it later is good, if it was delivered poorly/with bad timing.

Cleave, sorry I stole your line, i knew i heard it somewhere before - didn't know where.

WHat happened to rapwithtom? Did he bail after the Sonic Boom crashfest? hope not!

sarals 

Valygrl, no worries. I couldn't agree with you more.

AzT hit the nail on the head with the "bike handler" and "understanding dynamics" (my take) analogy. I can handle the bike just fine. What I can't do very well is maintain a position in a pack or read what's going on because I just don't know how. I've gotten surprised by people doing really dumb stuff around me, even had wheel touches, because I couldn't didn't read a situation. In one case, I went three abreast into a corner knowing full well the woman on my right couldn't hold her line, but I hoped for the best. That'll get you hurt, and it almost did.

I definitely have to work on learning pack dynamics. No question. I also have learn how to stay where I want to be in the pack. That's a little to do with strength, but more to do, I think, with assertive, but safe, riding.

I'll take criticism anytime I can get it, I'm not adverse to it at all. Hey, I've lived through almost forty years of being a pro pilot, and I didn't do that by being close minded. I approach racing my bike the same way. However, unless the situation is clearly a training atmosphere, comments should be withheld until the appropriate time.

IBOHUNT

Tonights 2 hour ride included a, as an avg, 1x30 @ 96%, a 1x12 @ 93% then ride home at 90%; all trying to learn this pacing stuff.
End of the night was a bucket of ice and tylenol for the foot.

IF 0.91
TSS 149

revchuck 

Dang, IBO, I'm tired from just reading that.

sarals 

Day off yesterday, JRA (coach said "go EASY") this morning. This is my sixth straight day shift at work, so the ride started at 0550. Work runs me down in many ways, and it showed this morning. I was having some cramping issues in my feet and calves in my sleep last night, and my legs felt like a manila rope this morning. The kinks never did work out. It was an achy-breaky kinda ride, and it was easy to keep it easy.

Cleave

I heard the guy who crashed inside of and just ahead of me on Sunday was doing his first race of the year. Not sure what kind of and how much race experience he had.

I'm sure it was best that I was near the back of the pack on Sunday because I was definitely a bit hesitant about the road conditions. A friend who stayed in the pack the whole race said that the roads were fine. The road may have been fine but in my mind it wasn't so from a pack dynamics perspective I belonged at the back. I know that when I was younger I would have been braver but ever since my crash a few years ago after riding through a slime filled puddle, I've been pretty cautious when my tires get wet.

I remember doing the equivalent of an NRC race in the rain back in the 1970s. There was a 90 degree corner at the bottom of a fast decent. I was getting through it as fast as anyone and I saw several guys ride off into the cornfield on the outside of the corner. I know I can probably still do things like that in the wet but my brain won't let right now. I'd try "practicing" wet cornering but we're having a drought and my crash (that broke my face) was at a very low speed anyway.

IBOHUNT

Self preservation rule eh?

IBOHUNT

I 1/crushed it last night for 2 1/2 hours

IF 0.56
TSS 67

66% in Z1
30% in Z2

Allegheny Jet

Impressive,... that you can hold back like that for so long.