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Old 03-14-17, 11:39 AM   #9651
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@Heathpack - I love days like that!

Addendum to my Rouge-Roubaix post above...in all my self-recrimination about how I did, I had forgotten that it was a B race, part of my work up for the Cheaha Challenge. I had originally planned on doing the fondo and switched to the race a couple of weeks ago. I spoke with my coach this morning, and she noted the improvements I had made that didn't show up in the results. So I'm considerably less hangdog than I was yesterday.
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Old 03-14-17, 01:00 PM   #9652
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@revchuck by my reckoning you finished 40th and quite a bit higher in the 55+. And you finished, the guy who was DFL was the first DNF.

I would say very good job.

We have a couple of races here with gravel sections, I always run 25c tubeless in those events, and may go up to 28 in the future. Much sturdier stuff. Also use a plastic film on the downtube and seat tubes to keep the carbon from getting dinged up. We also have some notoriously horrific road races, where you can pick up a decade's supply of ejected water bottles:



There is only one cage I have found that will keep bottles in no matter how bad things get, the Elite Sior:



And of course I should hit myself in the head for not throwing this out there earlier for you, knowing that course.

The mud issues are one of those disc brakes > rim brakes issues. All other things being equal like fork clearance and such you end up with less build up without the caliper brakes, a lot more dependable braking, and don't tear the rims up. Actual have a Defy disc on order to replace my Madone as my gravel/lumpy stuff bike.
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Old 03-14-17, 02:38 PM   #9653
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@racerEx - Thanks!

No need to protect the carbon on that bike, it's aluminum (Allez Comp Race). And that pavement looks surprisingly similar - the chip seal in places used golf ball-size gravel and consisted mainly of badly-executed patches.

This race convinced me of the wisdom of disc brakes for bikes that are built for races like this, for the reasons you gave. That said, I don't think I'm doing this one again, six times is enough.

Those cages look cool. I used King stainless cages and actually took them off and bent them a bit last week, evidently not enough.
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Old 03-14-17, 09:06 PM   #9654
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@revchuck, good heavens, Roubaix is the right name for that race - pave, mud, water, you name it. You are a ROCKSTAR!! Finished a tough, tough spring classic race. You da man!! Congratulations!! Proud of you!!
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Old 03-14-17, 09:08 PM   #9655
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@racerEx - Thanks!

No need to protect the carbon on that bike, it's aluminum (Allez Comp Race). And that pavement looks surprisingly similar - the chip seal in places used golf ball-size gravel and consisted mainly of badly-executed patches.

This race convinced me of the wisdom of disc brakes for bikes that are built for races like this, for the reasons you gave. That said, I don't think I'm doing this one again, six times is enough.

Those cages look cool. I used King stainless cages and actually took them off and bent them a bit last week, evidently not enough.
On a couple of the notoriously ****y pavement races on our calendar, folks use rubber bands on the bottle cages to help keep the bottles in. Still, if you've a mind to and enough pockets, there is quite a supply of ejected water bottles to pick up on those roads.
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Old 03-14-17, 09:16 PM   #9656
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Today, Hellyer, and it was sprint day. No long sprints, just "power jump" kind of sprints. Five seconds on the gas, or 100 meters. I did the three that were scheduled, then several more with Barb. I also geared up to 87 inches (50/15) for the bunch I did with Barb, and I liked the torque that gear gave me. I started to see 30+ MPH pretty regularly, too. I know, that's nothing for you fellas, but for the old ladies, it's to starting cook!

The thirty lap warmup was Barb and I only, so we each hit the front for quite a bit more time than usual. No worries, it felt fine.

The back is feeling good, in that it lets me know it's there, but it doesn't get aggravated from the efforts and it goes back to not hurting at all quite quickly after the workout. I'm starting to think I may be past that injury, at least for now.

Oh, I got news that one of my teammates hit the deck AGAIN yesterday on her TT bike. This is like the third time in the last two years that she's crashed on that thing. She's now talking like she's going to sell it and stick to her road bike. I'm thinking I'm agreeing with her....
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Old 03-16-17, 04:41 PM   #9657
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It's Spring in my slice of TX with Bluebonnets blooming, oak pollen turning everything green and the Coastal Fetch ramping up.
For those not local the Coastal Fetch is a weather phenomenon that brings winds from the Gulf of Mexico up and over the Edwards plateau into the Hill Country with high humidity and a variety of wind speeds from mild to alarming.

Today the Fetch was less like a gamboling Lab puppy happily returning a slobberd-upon tennis ball and more like an attack trained Rottweiler out for blood.
A perfect day for some desultory hill repeats, with the wind at my back of course.
Going as hard as seemed advisable for my advanced age and lack of conditioning a plastic grocery bag passed me while going uphill.
Normally our local population of plastic bags are rather passive and are generally content to pile up against fences or at best flag jauntily in tree branches.

Perhaps it's breeding season for feral polyethylene products and it mistook my CF Merckx for a suitable mate and was just showing off?

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Old 03-16-17, 06:12 PM   #9658
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@revchuck, good heavens, Roubaix is the right name for that race - pave, mud, water, you name it. You are a ROCKSTAR!! Finished a tough, tough spring classic race. You da man!! Congratulations!! Proud of you!!
<blush>

Thanks, Sara!

Since Sunday, I've been trying to get back into my training rhythm. Coach told me to do whatever I wanted, as long as I end up with a TSS between 450-600 this week. Monday I did about an hour at recovery pace with 4x1' fast pedal drills and boy, were my legs ever unmotivated to spin! Tuesday was a rest day. Yesterday I planned to do a couple of hours at the lower end of endurance pace but ended up higher, IF for the ride was .76. Today's plan was 1:30 at endurance pace with the middle 30' at the upper end; that 30' ended up at the top end of SST due to pedaling into a headwind and me thinking "Dammit, I don't want to downshift AGAIN!" I guess my legs are pretty much recovered, but they're still a bit sore. I'm better than halfway to the minimum TSS for the week, right at 245 now.

Easy-ish day tomorrow, group ride before work Saturday, and either a solo or group long-ish ride Sunday. The weather is predicted to be pretty nice for the next week.
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Old 03-16-17, 07:14 PM   #9659
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It's Spring in my slice of TX with Bluebonnets blooming, oak pollen turning everything green and the Coastal Fetch ramping up.
And let us not forget cedar fever.

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Perhaps it's breeding season for feral polyethylene products and it mistook my CF Merckx for a suitable mate and was just showing off?
Mr. McGuire was all knowing.

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Old 03-16-17, 07:22 PM   #9660
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Well, I guess I am back on the bike with occasional forays onto the skis of sundry types. Working on restore some basic endurance and fitness, and working off some weight. Last set of rides yielded a nice 35% Z3 and 16% high Z2. That should help. Nice weather isn't hurting either.
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Old 03-16-17, 08:38 PM   #9661
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@revchuck, you are most welcome!

I received a nice note from Coach about my last week of training. Thanks, Coach! I am indeed feeling pretty good now.

In fact, todays strength workout had me wondering how in world I was having trouble with some of the exercises just three weeks ago. Forget being in the hospital, I have!

I'm mentoring a crit this Sunday. Coach said don't go crazy. I won't!

The forecast for next week is threatening wet. I just hope Hellyer Day (Tuesday) is dry!
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Old 03-17-17, 10:51 AM   #9662
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Rest week for me, so I had a recovery ride on Wed and was off yesterday.


Today I had just 20 min of V02max intervals to do, but I latched on to the second half of the Friday Coffee Ride and had coffee with that crowd. Enjoyed it, even the intervals.


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Old 03-17-17, 05:12 PM   #9663
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Colorful selections of bar tape there, @Heathpack!
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Old 03-17-17, 09:33 PM   #9664
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Great pic.
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Old 03-18-17, 01:14 PM   #9665
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Well I've had an interesting 12 hours.


Went to bed last night, slept 2 hours and then got called in for an emergency surgery. Got home at 5am, intending to skip the 8am group ride in favor of sleep. Slept for 2 hours again and then my body just woke up and said "time for bikes!"


Ok, body, have at it. Did the CBS Saturday Morning ride, which was actively controlled by the ride leader to keep it super-mellow today on account of a bunch of people racing our hometown crit tomorrow. So it was a doable but decently hard ride for me and I had fun, didn't really get dropped from the group. Coffee after and chatting. See, group rides can be enjoyable things.


Sleepy-tired but not that bad. I'll try to get a nap in this afternoon.
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Old 03-20-17, 07:54 PM   #9666
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Did an easy 1:30 endurance pace ride Friday, a pretty nice group ride Saturday morning and another easy endurance pace ride yesterday. Saturday's and Sunday's rides were each just under two hours, but the TSS for the group ride was 135 while the score for Sunday's ride was 86. TSS ended up at 529 for the week, right in the middle of the range coach was looking for. I took today off the bike, did gas range scrubbing intervals, the ones you do under the top where all the spills end up.
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Old 03-21-17, 09:18 PM   #9667
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I left the house at 10 this morning, heading for Hellyer, and the weather was DISMAL, but the forecast held promise. I got there an hour and change later and the skies parted to a beautiful day. The supervisor arrived, and the five of us who chanced the weather had a great workout. I texted coach when I got there and told him that "the weather is good, and I'm at Hellyer", along with telling him I was going to do the original plan. "Ok" was the response. I did the thirty lap warmup (legs felt pretty good, even after chasing younger riders around in a crit on Sunday), then I did (after a good rest) three 10 second full power efforts from the rail to the sprinters lane from a slow roll. My peak power was a little low, but I changed up the effort, holding off of full gas until I was actually established in the lane and then accelerating through the turn. Is that how a flying 200 is done? I don't know, yet, but I'm trying different things as I break each effort down into segments. After that, I rested and rebuilt ATP, and then did two full gas one lap efforts with three laps RBI. Then I called it a day. Barb was working on aerobar setup and gearing with her coach, so we didn't have a chance to work together. Next week, perhaps!
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Old 03-22-17, 09:57 AM   #9668
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@sarals Flying 200 meters at HellyerFlying 200 meters at Hellyer

In the formal race, the rider has 3 laps to complete the race and the time is taking from the flying 200 meter start line to the start finish line on the home stretch.

Riders use the 2 laps before the final lap to generate speed. The goal is to hit the start line at as fast a speed as possible and hold that speed for 200 meters.

If one is practicing flying 200 meters one does not need to use the three laps at Hellyer but it is always a good idea to practice as one races.

Next is the line off the banking. The shortest distance around the track is always the black line but it MAY not be the fastest. So riders coming into their final lap after getting the bell, are at the rail and accelerating in turn one. Coming into turn 2, they are at the rail out of the saddle and going very hard.

Now, they pick their line. Some stay at the rail longer and use more of the banking along the back stretch hitting the pole lane at the start of turn 3. Others take a lower line and start their dive hitting the start line in the middle and then hitting the pole lane at the start of turn three.

What one does not want is lost time once past the start line either by accelerating or slowing down. Accelerating is not too bad but one would argue that the accelerations should occur before the start.


Flying 200 meters at VSC

At VSC, it is a different race. Hence racers can do well at Hellyer and expect to do better at VSC only to go slower. The start line at VSC is in the middle between turns one and two. So like Hellyer, one dives off the banking but the timing of the dive is critical. VSC starts to go uphill in the middle of the home stretch so one wants to dive right before it goes up hill but one is at the rail going max speed....not so easy.

When one comes off the banking, there is added acceleration which is good but it can throw riders off line and they slow down. So one must keep the sprinter brain in the all out mode diving into and through the turn. Unlike Hellyer, the track is flat from the start to the finish once in the pole lane. At Hellyer, one has some banking on the back stretch to help with maintaining speed. At Hellyer there is one banking to negotiate and at VSC there is two i.e. more turning at high speed and more opportunity to go too wide in the turns.

The windup at VSC is critical. One has to ride as slow as possible without slipping and corkscrew up the banking. One does not just go to the balustrade immediately. That wastes too much energy.

On the final lap, one accelerates out of the turn on the back stretch and uses the bowl shape to generate speed so that one is not losing speed climbing the banking on the final turn and then really accelerate out of the turn and stay at the rail to the last possible moment before the track goes uphill again.

There are three systems to produce power in humans - ATP-PC, glycolytic and aerobic.

Generally, one has 2- 3 seconds of ATP stored in muscles. That allows instant movements at full power such as jumping and etc. After the stored ATP is used, the phosphate creatine system can produce another 3 to 4 seconds. Hence, humans have approximately 7 seconds (some more some less) before the glycolytic system kicks in and one goes anaerobic.

So the 7 seconds are sort of free energy. When one does 100 meter jumps from the flying 200 meter line to between turns 3 and 4 at Hellyer, one is training the ATP-PC system. The goal is to shut down within the limit of 7 to 8 seconds and NOT go anaerobic.

One then rolls around for a couple of minutes to allow that system to recover and do it again. This is more about warmup and getting all the systems into the game since the 30 lap accelerating warmup should have initiated the aerobic and glycolytic systems.

There is some good news and more news about the ATP-PC system. It is free energy but takes a full 20 minutes to recharge. Yep, 20 minutes. So lets say that you are doing 2 flying 100 meters and 2 flying 200 meters for the workout. After the warmup and the first flying 100, you put on your headphones and sit in your lounge chair and wait 20 minutes and then do your next effort. So 4 efforts require 80 minutes of rest.

So why does one do this? The goal is to do each effort at max and get the most out of the ATP-PC system which is the monster acceleration that one needs to hit the flying 200 meter line at max speed. You cannot get there using your glycolytic system and aerobic systems. They just do not have enough strength.

And the glycolytic system recovers in 90 seconds versus 20 minutes for the ATP-PC.

Also, do not confuse fatigue with recovery for systems. One will fatigue if one limits efforts to 7 seconds. So even with 20 minutes of rest between efforts and 12 -15 second max efforts, one will generate a lot of fatigue that will hang around for days.
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Old 03-22-17, 10:12 AM   #9669
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Glad the rain cleared for you, @sarals! Same for me: weather forecast originally sail 60% chance of rain this am, then when I went to bed 40%. Got up and we were down to 20%. Rode and guess what? 0% rain.

@Hermes, welcome home. When are we going to hear about Tucson?


I was off Monday.


Tues was JRA on the TT Bike. I headed out with my friend who is a competitive Ironman triathlete (competitive in that she actually tries to win them and realistically has a chance). She signed up for an Ironman awhile back and with that registration came a free registration for an Olympic distance tri, so she raced that in San Diego over the weekend and won it. Haha, I can tell she likes the shorter distance, she was telling me how nice it was to just race more intensely.


I had a great ride with her- felt pretty mighty on the bike after a week of rest. Very nice to feel so comfy on the TT bike after being off of it for a while.


Today I had some meaty TT intervals- short but intense, some new harder power targets for me. It felt hard but that good kind of boo yah hard. Great ride.


Also I had my last follow-up with the eye doc yesterday. My vision is now 20/20. All activity restrictions have been lifted, I can even get a massage (!).


And I have been spinning my wheels with this diet, I've been suspecting its due to systemic absorption of my glucocorticoid eye drops. Done with the drops and I lost a pound. Sweet.


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Old 03-22-17, 10:22 AM   #9670
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@Heathpack Great news about your eyes. Never a doubt but great news.

Tucson was fun and I was waiting for some pics from the camp operator which are yet to materialize although I know they have hundreds that need to be uploaded to a website.
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Old 03-22-17, 11:17 AM   #9671
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@Hermes, that was good stuff, THANK YOU!

What I have discovered about the 200, and sprinting in general, is that it is (like most things in cycling competition) very complex. When you're speaking about fractions of a second (in some cases) those fractions all matter. Learning the technicalities of a sprint is going to be a long process. It's not just going as fast as you can go, that's the Cheetah Brain, there is much more to it than that - as you point out!

Interestingly, Mark R. and I were talking about just this topic yesterday. He's of the opinion that you want to be at or close to maximum speed into the first turn (either at Hellyer or VSC) and hold that through the turn. He cited examples, as well. He also talked about the 500 meter, and how much different an effort that is (which I know). He said that the average sprinter can stay in a sprint for 20 seconds. 20 seconds! So, yes, ATP all of the follow on energy sources are used and depleted. And, I do know what that feels like and how much it hurts!

For clarification, what I was doing yesterday and the week before were efforts designed to work ATP - PC. I was assigned three of them, the stipulation was from a slow roll at the rail, so I treated them as I would a 200, except that the start speed was much lower than if I'd been practicing a 200. I used three laps between efforts for two reasons. One, it gave my HR a chance to drop below 100 BPM (and maybe some ATP would come back), and two, the 200 is three laps then go on the third.

By the way, Lee Povey is having a sprint session at Hellyer this Saturday weather permitting. And I have to work (story of my life).

I'll mention the 500 I did a couple of weeks ago. I'd love to hear your take on those. Anyway, what a monster effort that was, and after I did it I was done for the rest of the session. 45 seconds or so of hard effort, the last 25 being on sheer will power and then absolute agony when I shut the effort down. As coach said "they'll leave a mark". Oh yes it did!

As for where the start and finishes for each kind of event are at Hellyer, well, I'm still learning that. There are so many lines painted on that surface, some marked, some not, that it's easy to get things confused. And I'll be darned if I can see any of them when I'm the throes of an effort! Except for the finish line, with it's wide white band.

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Old 03-22-17, 12:19 PM   #9672
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@sarals At some point in time, you have to decide which horse to ride. You have a coach...listen to him and ask him how to do a flying 200 or a 500 or whatever.

I am happy to respond but I do not want to cause confusion. Many times people say the same thing but in different ways due to more detailed knowledge of the situation.

With respect to Mark R. A biblical passage by JC comes to mind modified as follows: Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto Mark the things that are Mark's.

Mark has won everything. Road, TTs, track, sprinting, pursuiting. At track he was won endurance and sprints at the national and world level. He can turn on the fast twitch or slow twitch and has a huge aerobic engine.

We all want Mark to continue to believe whatever he believes to be true while we figure out something else that may work to beat him.

Povey's sprint clinics can be good and sometimes not so good. We had a great experience in LA with him and Dave Le Grys and when they came to Hellyer it was poor.

This is the problem with instruction and coaching in general for cycling...it is spotty. For example, one can take a David Ledbetter golf clinic and get a high quality clinic that is repeatable at different venues and is proven to work. Cycling seems much more fractured. Ideas abound on how to do this and that and how often to do it.

My advice is as you listen to different racers and coaches keep in mind that few are highly educated in the area of human performance and rely on handed down ideas. It is more like an apprenticeship versus going to medical school and becoming a doctor.

Each athlete is left with figuring out what works for them.
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Old 03-22-17, 01:45 PM   #9673
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@Hermes, one impression that I have is that sometimes in cycling you'll have someone who is very talented and they are doing things in a way that honestly would not work for me. I don't have the genetic gifts to do things wrong (training-wise or recovery-wise) and to do well despite that.


But it has struck me for quite some time that cycling is an odd sport in that people think its completely a meritocracy. You train and you get better and then you win or you don't. The people who win think they are winning because of what they've been doing training-wise and vice versa for the people who don't win, the assumption is they are doing things wrong. People don't really appreciate the differences that come from talent or genetics or experience. They always attribute it all differences to differences in training. I think the reality is that some people do well despite their training, because they are gifted.


Anyway, I think this meritocracy business is why people are sometimes adamant about very different approaches to whatever on the bike- training, technique, strategy, recovery, etc. Its interesting.
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Old 03-22-17, 02:26 PM   #9674
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@Heathpack, exactly.

@Hermes, I know which horse to ride, I made that decision several years ago. I don't mind, however, drinking from the well of experience. You have a lot of experience on the track, and you have always seemed quite willing to talk about track technique, and I, blatantly, take advantage of that. And why shouldn't I? My coach works with me in ways I don't and won't discuss in detail here. It's not proprietary, but a lot of what we do is tailored by him for me. Because we don't get to work one on one that often, I find it helpful to hear opinions from others on how to do certain things. Especially from those who are good at and have done said certain things to a degree of success many times over. It doesn't mean it's gospel, or that it would work for me. It's another facet, and it's valid. Often, I'll discuss what I've read or been told or have seen with my coach, and we may or may not incorporate it in some way.

At the point where I am currently in my track experience and training, there is much I have not done and frankly have not seen. I'm not ready to do some things, and others I'm just starting to do. I like and welcome shared experience from others on how they do a specific effort, what tactics they may employ, or even where their saddle height is and why. Mark R. shared a great story about a scratch race he was in at Hellyer just a few years ago, and which he won - and how. It doesn't mean I could do what he did, but it is something I'll remember and I may even have chance to use what I learned from that story.

The same applies to what you tell me.

And I thank you!
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Old 03-22-17, 03:00 PM   #9675
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Last week we did a Tucson Camp with Cycling House. We did this camp three years ago. We wanted something different and to do some riding in a structured and supported manner.

The Cycling House is modeled after USAC training camps with the idea that the participants hang out together in common areas and dine and party together versus going back to a hotel room and etc.

Hence the business features a large house that the company purchased 3 miles from the base of Mount Lemmon. The other feature is high quality healthy food custom prepared for each person. They also provide guides and support vehicles on the road.

We drove to Tucson and left Tuesday morning with our bikes and arrived at 1:30PM and got ready for our ride at 3PM.

Normally, the temperature in Tucson is in the 80s this time of year. This year, we had very high temperatures. It was 107 during our ride on Tuesday that was an easy 25 spin around the area.

Day 2 was Saguaro East & Pistol Hill that featured a loop in the national park. This is an amazing park with different types of cactus and wild life plus a climb up Pistol hill. It was overcast and more humid with temps in the high 90s.

Day 3 was Mount Lemmon. Mount Lemmon is an epic climb and IMO as or more difficult than Mount Ventoux although MV is much steeper. The grade on ML is 5 to 6% but it is just relentless and the lower section or first 7 miles was very hot and no shade. I kept the power down but one still has to make enough to climb. The second 7 miles was cooler and I felt better. The last 7 miles was not pretty. My back was sore and my power down due to higher altitude although my breathing and legs were fine. The last 7 miles were ride a couple and stop and stretch my back and hit it again.

Day 4 Gates Pass. We went to a starting point away from the house and rode to Saguaro National Park West that has the highest concentration of Saguaro cactus in the world! At some point in time, you see one cactus you have seen them all but it definitely has a beauty that is incomparable. Once again, it was hot.

Day 5 Parker Canyon Lake. We shuttled to a winery in the high dessert about 1 hour and 15 minutes from our house. We started at 5000' and rode to a lake at 5500'. This was completely different terrain with mostly scrub brush. Some riders jumped in the lake.

We returned to the winery for lunch and we did a wine tasting. Let's say they need a little work on their winemaking but we did buy a bottle to support the winery and allowing our group to use the property.

This was advertised as a triathlon camp. So some went for runs and swims after the riding. And we had some really good athletes. I learned quite a bit about swimming and its technical nature.

A coach was there with a couple of his athletes who also happens to be a world champion triathlete. We had the chance to discuss a lot of detailed physiology and the benefits of different types of training and etc. Plus we had a researcher who was interested in genetics and we had some great discussions about genetics and athletic performance.

Besides working the legs, we had the chance to work the brain a bit.

Here are some pics that I took. I was relying on the camp operator to take pics and they did. However, their execution is lacking in getting them out.

Gates Pass

Mount Lemmon



Sam and my wife at the top of Mount Lemmon. Sam was in the 2012 London Olympics racing mountain bikes. He led the camp and was a very fun guy. My wife had the fastest time up the mountain 2:15 beating all the men and women.



Since I do not have the pics from this year, I will use the video from 3 years ago. It is similar and a lot better production than the one made this year.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bw4E...RHVjBob1k/edit
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