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Masters Racing (All Disciplines) Race on the track or road or on your mountainbike in the Masters Category? Want to talk tactics, strategy and training with your peers?

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Old 06-18-17, 07:59 AM   #10076
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@valygrl, sorry you felt frustrated by your race. When I pulled up your Strava to look at your data, it looks like a well-ridden TT to me. I don't know what your FTP, but if I rode a power file that looked like that and I did it at 100%, I would be happy with it regardless of my placement.


(BTW: You have multiple power dropouts during the TT, there's a problem with your power meter because you were pedaling all those times your power allegedly drops to 0).


When I look at your data, I can only see only other person who "rode with you" on Strava. Her data is wide open, anyone can look at all of it. Your opponent took 3rd.


She did not ride the State TT at 100% but I can find a 100% TT effort recently and her FTP is 65 watts over what yours seems to be (again, assuming you rode that state TT at 100%). Now she might be way bigger than you and have more aero drag, but if her frame (shoulder width, hip width) isn't that much bigger than yours, the weight difference on a flat course doesn't matter except giving her more muscle and therefore more power.


If I were racing someone with an FTP 65 watts over mine, I would not expect to win and when I didn't win, that would not bother me one iota. Yes, do all the things @echappist suggests but those things are probably not worth 65 watts. I personally could not train up 65 watts of FTP in one season, and probably I could not do it ever.


I know the crit guys in the 33 ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS want to make out that TT people who are satisfied with a PR instead of a win are people "participation sport" people who "just want a trophy". Nope. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Its just that TTs are more nuanced in the way you need to think about them. First you need to know what's good a good race for you period, regardless of what your competition did, and you have to be happy when that race (off the podium finish or not) shows you progress as you are playing your long game of becoming good at TTs.


The game as I see it for you is: how do I beat women with an FTP 65 watts over mine?? Because its definitely doable. You kind of need to go all in on the TT thing. Raise your FTP if you can. Practice lots of TT efforts. Come to love riding your TT bike. Optimize your position (your likely biggest area for improvement). Optimize your equipment. Manage your head. If your watts/kg are good and some of these women are bigger than you, take them down on hill climb TTs.


TL/DR take home message: you've got to know what's good for you in a TT and when to be happy with a race. Feeling like you have a chance of winning is important and I feel confident you could figure out how to do it. Hang in there.
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Old 06-18-17, 08:24 AM   #10077
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Aero testing for us at the Velodrome in Carson last night.


First things first: @Racer Ex is poetry in motion on his pursuit bike.


Tons of technical glitches for me: My speed sensor quit, so fitter lent me his rear wheel which has a powertap hub and therefore a speed sensor, then his wheel got a flat, so then we wound up using @Racer Ex's speed sensor for both of us which slowed the process down because its zip-tied in place and swapping it between bikes takes a moment.


Then there was the fact that my previous track experience was so terrible that I kind of had a panic attack when I started out on the track and it took me 30 min to even shore up the courage to ride around on the pole line. However, once I was out there and no one was yelling at me and doing unpredictable things, I actually enjoyed it. Still would take me 10-15 laps to settle in to some kind of consistency with my passes, which translated to it taking longer than usual.


We wound up running long and I didn't really get much useful info. I think by the time things started going more smoothly for me on the track, I was just tired.


Bottom line: need to go back and test some more, keep riding with the new position until then. Fitter is a great guy, he will make sure that I get something useful out of the process.


All in all, it was a fun Saturday night, despite the glitches. Great seeing @Racer Ex, however briefly. Huge thanks to @Cleave who volunteered his Sat night to help with wrenching. And fitter was a huge gentleman as always. Nice to spend time with your favorite people in cycling.

@Racer Ex I believe got some better info than I did, although he is invited back too for more testing too.
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Old 06-18-17, 09:00 AM   #10078
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Originally Posted by valygrl View Post
Thanks echappist!

By the way - I realize there are folks here who are not waiting for a magic wand, but actually doing the work to make their TTs better - so I regret phasing my comment that way. I'm having a weird season and haven't really committed either to training (I'm riding a lot but not training) or making headway on all those details. So i shouldn't really lament my results if I'm not doing what is needed to improve.
I (think) I know what you meant when you said you are having a weird season. On the highs of last season when I got a slew of upgrade points to cat-2 and was getting good TT results, I had to cut back drastically in order to finish my dissertation. Somehow, a lot of that power on the TT bike were gone within a month. Add a few months of not riding much, I had to start from more than 30W down from last year (more likely 45W) for 20-min efforts. I got back to 15W earlier this year, but a move (and time off due to it) pegged me back to 30W. There's nothing as royally frustrating as seeing gains on the TT bike vaporize, and it's taken me three month to get back to that point.

All that is to say, it's perfectly normal to feel frustrated and to want to smash the damn bike to pieces. Hell, it'd take me a page to probably write down all the fussy things I wrote to @Racer Ex about my TT bike training. I don't know if you specialize in the TT or do mass start racing, but having a coach familiar with TTs might also help. Whereas one may expect to see results on the road bike within 2 weeks of solid training, that may very well translate into 5-6 weeks on the TT bike. Hang in there.

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If I were racing someone with an FTP 65 watts over mine, I would not expect to win and when I didn't win, that would not bother me one iota. Yes, do all the things @echappist suggests but those things are probably not worth 65 watts. I personally could not train up 65 watts of FTP in one season, and probably I could not do it ever.
More like 35 watts, but who's counting .

But seriously though, the things listed (less the tire changes) amounted to 35 (essentially physiologically-free) watts. However, I have a hunch that the leg shaving alone saved me close to 20 of those watts.

The tires (Vittoria Corsa Speed set up tubeless) should save another 5 watts per tire. @Racer Ex would probably dissuade you from using them, but I think this is the few times where i'd challenge his otherwise impeccable authority on TT preping (send me a PM if you want more details)

Quote:
I know the crit guys in the 33 ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS want to make out that TT people who are satisfied with a PR instead of a win are people "participation sport" people who "just want a trophy". Nope. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Its just that TTs are more nuanced in the way you need to think about them. First you need to know what's good a good race for you period, regardless of what your competition did, and you have to be happy when that race (off the podium finish or not) shows you progress as you are playing your long game of becoming good at TTs.
The ones who can casually dismiss improved PR (in terms of W/kg or W/CdA) in lieu of results can do so only because they have good results. Even if they were right about that attitude mass-start bike racing, it's still a moot point when it comes to ITTs

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The game as I see it for you is: how do I beat women with an FTP 65 watts over mine?? Because its definitely doable. You kind of need to go all in on the TT thing. Raise your FTP if you can. Practice lots of TT efforts. Come to love riding your TT bike. Optimize your position (your likely biggest area for improvement). Optimize your equipment. Manage your head. If your watts/kg are good and some of these women are bigger than you, take them down on hill climb TTs.
This. I think the prescription goes something like at least 2-3x/week on the TT bike. Also, side-on shots would help. A trip to a velodrome in LA (not sure if that'd be too far) would help immensely with position
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Old 06-18-17, 12:09 PM   #10079
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More like 35 watts, but who's counting .

No, 65 watts is correct. The 3rd place finisher did not ride a 100% effort for the State TT. What I explained in my post is that I went back through #3's Strava data and can see her FTP. Based on a recent TT (not the State Championship TT), I would guess she has her FTP set correctly in Strava and it is indeed 65 watts higher than @valygrl's weighted ave power for her effort at the State TT. @valygrl does not have Strava premium so I can't say if her State TT effort was a max effort reflective of her true FTP (but I'm sure @valygrl knows).


However, talking about someone's FTP is something I feel slightly uncomfortable with if they don't bring it up first so if you want to further correct me or make some other argument, have at it- just maybe send it to @valygrl in a PM instead and respect her privacy a little perhaps- rather than us having 20 back and forth posts with you correcting what you perceive to be the errors in my thinking. Honestly, I probably should have just emailed @valygrl directly rather than bring a subject up about her data in the open forum if she did not bring it up first,
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Old 06-18-17, 12:40 PM   #10080
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Such a nice morning on the bike.


I had plans to meet up with a friend for coffee this am- she wanted to meet the puppy, so I rode and then finished at the coffee shop and Mr. H came with the dogs, we had a great chatty visit. Her husband came too. We talked about Big Bear over 4th of July- they just got a cabin up there and we're going up to stay with them for the long weekend for some MTB and a little road. Friday through Wednesday, so we should get in some miles.


I took the TT bike out this am. The idea was to play with whatever discoveries I made in the aerotesting. Since I made no discoveries, last night @Racer Ex suggested I could just ride whatever bike I wanted. I considered the road bike, but I am digging the TT bike of late, so I figure more time in the new position (which everyone agrees is the position to stick with for now) the better.


I was thinking I'd put out some threshold TT efforts, maybe a few 5-10 min ones and one or two 15-20 min ones. The legs response to that was: Um, no. I guess riding on the track just 10 hours before had some kind of impact?! Lol.


No biggie, I just did some steady TT efforts, not worrying about the power. Just time in position, might as well save the legs to get in some good work later in the week.


Came upon the club ride, I hadn't paid any attention to what route they were doing this morning since I was expecting to be on the TT bike. I might have actually joined them had I realized, but honestly I would have wrecked myself trying to keep up with the kids, I'm better off with what I did.


I got to chat and visit with them a bit, their route overlapped with mine entirely (they just went farther). Eventually I pulled off to get some of the TT stuff in but that was just a total pleasant surprise. And then the club ride ended at the same coffee shop I was visiting friends at, so I wound up with the best of both worlds: a solo TT ride in which I could do whatever suited me AND a pretty social morning.


Perfect.
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Old 06-18-17, 06:34 PM   #10081
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Shoot, it's been ten days since I posted in here. Been busy!

I had a few days of JRA, just staying on the bike. One day was 3x8"Power Starts (3 mph standing start in 50-14, absolute full power acceleration) and 3x8" Stomps (10 mph seated start in 50-13, ditto) that hurt but went well. My last day on the bike (pausing for PSA prep) was last Wednesday. The workout was 3x9' O/U, with the first three minutes at threshold, the next three over threshold, and the last three back at threshold with the last 10-15 seconds of it sprinting. I got through the first one okay but got 2/3 through the second one and my mind flipped a switch and that was all she wrote. It was hurting pretty bad but I was maintaining power right where it was supposed to be, but I was having an internal dialogue to the effect that it was the last day on the bike for a while and finishing the workout by pushing through the pain wouldn't make a difference in the greater scheme of things, and the bad angel won. The fact that I had been up since two that morning probably contributed to my lack of HTFU.

I've been reading this book

and in it the author describes two kinds of quits, "legit" quits and "sh*t" quits. Legit quits are because of injury and such. Sh*t quits are due to lack of motivation, or because it hurts, or similar reasons. Mine was definitely a sh*t quit. Not something I do often, but it happened.

Thursday was my first day doing laps in a pool in...40 years? I can walk out the door on any given day and do 100 miles on a bike now, but 100 meters in a pool kicked my ass across the room, and I bounced off the wall and landed on my back wondering what had just happened. Wow, was that ever an eye opener! I managed to do a total of 400 meters with breaks where needed. A guy I work with is a tri coach and he's going to help me with technique. That help is badly needed!

Friday was another bad sleep night. I was able to get back to sleep later in the morning and took the day off from training to try to get back to normal.

Saturday morning was my first run in six months, and I only ran a couple of times then. I decided to dispense with the walk/run thing and just run. I ran two miles, the first was 9:40 and the second 9:20. I was feeling okay but decided not to run longer since it was my first run in so long. My legs were a bit sore but NBD. Then in the afternoon I got up and my lower back decided it was unhappy, I ended up walking like an old man for the rest of the day until it loosened up, and it continued through today. Stretching and heat are helping. No training today either. I just ain't the studmuffin I used to be.

I'm going to walk tomorrow morning to hopefully help my back and do a swim session with the tri coach after work tomorrow evening. No plans yet for Tuesday. Wednesday is the PSA test and I'll be back on the bike afterward. I'll be talking with Coach this week about the training schedule to come.
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Old 06-18-17, 07:04 PM   #10082
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(tl;dr: I should have trained, duh)

Heathpack, thank you for taking your personal time to look closesly at my TT results / competition / strava.

You are really good at Strava analysis, I had no idea I could see that stuff about my competitor. She is way bigger than me, by the way. All the podium women are. The thing that really gets me is that the gals in 4th and 5th are people I ususally beat. 1st and 2nd - I'm not in their league. 3rd, I have never raced against her before (AFAIK), she is a TT specialist. 4th and 5th are both training with the coach that I used to work with, and both upped their equipment game for this race.

I wouldn't know if it makes sense to count on 3rd place's FTP to be set correctly and assume she didn't ride at 100%. I would assume she rode as hard as she could and her FTP is not recorded correctly in Strava (how is that even in there, is that a premium thing?) She has a bunch of rides in the last few weeks with titles like "preparing for states" - so I assume she gave it her all.

But, more to the point, why does it matter what her FTP is? Comparing my watts to someone else's watts and saying "She has more watts so it's ok I didn't beat her" does't work for me. Everyone has more watts than me, I'm 5'2". When Lynn Hill became the first person (person, not woman) to free climb The Nose in 1993, at the same weight and height as me, I stopped using "it's too reachy" as an excuse for why I couldn't climb stuff - and the same applies to racing. The measuring stick that matters is the race time. The hand I was or was not dealt by the body I was born with doesn't matter.

I think my brain just doesn't compete the same way yours does. I do care about improving my own performance, and seeing my performance deteriorate pisses me off. But, it shouldn't be a surprise (see below, re:homework)...

I thought my FTP was about 12 watts higher than my average for this race. Since I'm not working with a coach, and haven't tested in a while, I'm guessing - and apparently guessing wrong I was not able to meet my target watts, by quite a bit. I also didn't have as high an HR as I would have expected. I felt like I was riding an OK race, suffering hard the whole time and trying to hold on to my number, but on the return I wasn't able to hit the number and stopped looking for a while and just rode by RPE. My big problem in TTs is that I don't have the same motivation to suffer as i do in mass start racing - i can go much harder to keep a wheel than i can to keep a number. I think this is what i have to work on the most - ability to suffer. I'm sure I also didn't taper hard enough for this race, although I was postive TSB, I don't think I was fully recovered.

Yes my powertap had a bunch of dropouts, which is not normal - don't remember seeing it before, actually. I had a wheel cover on, so that might have been an issue, or there might have been some kind of interference from farm equipment. In any case, I corrected that in Training Peaks and it gives me a whole 2 extra watts average.

echappist - can't remember if you know my history - i'm a crit/road racer who has been relegated to TT only due to too many concussions - I can no longer risk a crash. I was actually pretty decent at crits, as a sprinter. So I'm trying to continue some kind of racing 'career' in my worst discipline, the TT. This year, after some deliberation, I decided not to train with a coach, but rather just ride as much as I wanted and still race.

I definitely have work to do in the position and equipment department, as well as more time on the TT bike (I've been pretty good about that the last month) - but really i just didn't do my homework (meaning, deliberate structured training), and expected to get an A anyway, and that's just dumb. Duh, i need to do my homework.

If i could realy get the equivalent of 35 free watts out of those changes, that would make a gigantic difference in my results.

sorry if this was stream of consciousness. thanks for reading
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Old 06-18-17, 07:50 PM   #10083
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Bummer about your aero testing snafu's, Heathpack. Hopefully the "practice" session sets you up for a sucessfull second go-round.
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Old 06-18-17, 08:30 PM   #10084
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@valygrl, I think you have majorly missed my meaning, so I'll try to explain what I was trying to say a little better.


First, you can see anyone's power on Strava if you can get into their ride. Usually you can only get into their ride if you follow them on Strava. Surprisingly lots of people let anyone follow them on Strava, but if they do you don't have to actually follow them, you can just look at their data. Strava premium members have an additional feature in their ride summary that says what % they rode the ride at. Strava says #3 rode at 92% effort. You have to always go into their "analysis" tab though to look at their data traces, sometimes people will include a warm up or cool down in the file they upload, so the % effort for the entire data file will be lower than the actual race. On May 17, #3 raced a TT at 100% and based on her HR during the TT, Strava calling that a 100% effort looks pretty legit, so you can just look at her ave power on that ride and figure out her FTP. But the truth is, we don't 100% know what her FTP is or if she has it right or even whether she's intentionally set it differently in Strava because that's what she wants the world to see.


My point with looking at the FTP of the other rider is not to make an "excuse" as to why you didn't beat her or to argue that you can't beat her. I'm absolutely sure you can. The point I was making is that if you're the same size (which you have since clarified you are not) and her FTP is 65 watts greater than yours (which is sounds like it isn't based on your own estimation of your FTP), then the task becomes "how do I beat someone with 65 watts on me?". Maybe you can do it that day because people go out and do stuff literally every TT that makes them lose- look at her, she rode the State TT at only 92%, she gave up 30 watts of her 65 watt advantage. Why did that happen? Altitude? Heat? Lack of focus? Rode the splits poorly? Didn't judge the wind correctly? Didn't rest enough prior? Never rode a 40K before? Whatever. Your task then is to not do any of those things, to ride it better than she does, and maybe you're more aero and have better equipment and there you have the win.


I think one of the most important things with TTs, though, and my biggest point with the FTP comment is that its really important to understand why you don't beat somebody so that you can figure out how to beat them eventually. I guess there have been moments where I'm annoyed with myself after a race or a workout, but I honestly can't relate to chappy's comment about being frustrated to the extent of wanting to throw my bike off a bridge or something. Every race, win or lose, just feels to me like an opportunity to understand more and get better. I am totally outclassed by my racing Nemesis for example- she is genetically gifted (has a daughter who is a pro runner, great genes), has a great aero position, a great coach, is a TT specialist, has been racing way longer than me and I'm sure has a way better power to weight ratio to me AND also a way better power to CdA ratio than me (although she is not on Strava and I don't know anything about her power for sure). But I'm sure I'm gonna beat her eventually. Not to sound arrogant because I genuinely believe she is a better athlete than I am by a good margin. Its just that I'm going to do *everything* right and show up over and over and one day I'll be better than her- she'll make a mistake and I won't, or we'll start far enough separated in time that I'll get better race conditions than her, or I'll get my power up/get more aero/lose weight, or I'll be peaking when she's placed her racing priorities elsewhere and is weaker or I'll make some change to my bike/equipment/position that gives me an advantage when she stays the course. Whatever it takes, I'll just make sure that if there's 10 ways I could narrow the gap that I've optimized all 10 of those factors. Honestly racing with someone who way outclasses me is the best thing that could have happened to me- it makes me fully understand that to beat her, I have to do everything right. But also fundamentally when I understand why I didn't win a race, and its nothing to do with my prep or my execution, then I don't beat myself up about it or feel too disappointed. If someone's better than me because the things I need to do to beat them take time and I'm working on it, fine. Time to be patient and look at the big picture.

As far as a willingness to suffer goes, I am kind of like you. I am not willing to suffer enough. But you really can learn how to ride the edge, I'm absolutely getting way better at it. Its a specific TT skill but its learned and trained like most of what happens in a crit.


However, the flip side of all this is: why? For me the answer is pretty straightforward: Why? Because I like it. I like the aero geek stuff, I love the solitary efforts, I get a buzz from riding at threshold for long periods of time, I like the ebb and flow of training, how you are strong then weak, and I really really like going fast of my own accord. So I'm willing to give up riding with my friends all the time and most group rides and a lot of the volume. I prioritize the TTs over those other things, so it feels relatively minor to me to give that stuff up. Not meaningless sacrifices, but for me its not a hard choice. But we're all different and if you value volume and unstructured riding with friends and group rides and your road bike over your TT bike, then I think its fine to wrap your head around accepting that about yourself too. It get it that you really want to be a bike racer and TTs are your only option. But to turn your cycling life upside down in the quest to become a good TTist? Might work for me but not for you. So I would not presume to tell you what you should do, beyond perhaps if you don't like TTs are don't want to do the "homework" as you call it, then when you go race them, take the results with a grain of salt and don't sweat it if you don't place where you'd like to.


Hopefully that makes some kind of sense, it very hard for me to express it exactly.
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Old 06-18-17, 08:40 PM   #10085
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(tl;dr: I should have trained, duh)

Heathpack, thank you for taking your personal time to look closesly at my TT results / competition / strava.

You are really good at Strava analysis, I had no idea I could see that stuff about my competitor. She is way bigger than me, by the way. All the podium women are. The thing that really gets me is that the gals in 4th and 5th are people I ususally beat. 1st and 2nd - I'm not in their league. 3rd, I have never raced against her before (AFAIK), she is a TT specialist. 4th and 5th are both training with the coach that I used to work with, and both upped their equipment game for this race.

I wouldn't know if it makes sense to count on 3rd place's FTP to be set correctly and assume she didn't ride at 100%. I would assume she rode as hard as she could and her FTP is not recorded correctly in Strava (how is that even in there, is that a premium thing?) She has a bunch of rides in the last few weeks with titles like "preparing for states" - so I assume she gave it her all.

But, more to the point, why does it matter what her FTP is? Comparing my watts to someone else's watts and saying "She has more watts so it's ok I didn't beat her" does't work for me. Everyone has more watts than me, I'm 5'2". When Lynn Hill became the first person (person, not woman) to free climb The Nose in 1993, at the same weight and height as me, I stopped using "it's too reachy" as an excuse for why I couldn't climb stuff - and the same applies to racing. The measuring stick that matters is the race time. The hand I was or was not dealt by the body I was born with doesn't matter.
Unfortunately, this does matter quite a bit. The way for you to get even is by getting as aero as possible. I recall @Racer Ex remarking that women shorter than 5'3" can have insanely low CdA (like sub 0.18), so that may be the place to look (and is a great excuse to spend $$$ on bike stuff as well ). Fortunately, shorter women do seem to do well at TTs (Emma Pooley and Amber Neben come to mind)
Quote:
I think my brain just doesn't compete the same way yours does. I do care about improving my own performance, and seeing my performance deteriorate pisses me off. But, it shouldn't be a surprise (see below, re:homework)...

I thought my FTP was about 12 watts higher than my average for this race. Since I'm not working with a coach, and haven't tested in a while, I'm guessing - and apparently guessing wrong I was not able to meet my target watts, by quite a bit. I also didn't have as high an HR as I would have expected. I felt like I was riding an OK race, suffering hard the whole time and trying to hold on to my number, but on the return I wasn't able to hit the number and stopped looking for a while and just rode by RPE. My big problem in TTs is that I don't have the same motivation to suffer as i do in mass start racing - i can go much harder to keep a wheel than i can to keep a number. I think this is what i have to work on the most - ability to suffer. I'm sure I also didn't taper hard enough for this race, although I was postive TSB, I don't think I was fully recovered.

Yes my powertap had a bunch of dropouts, which is not normal - don't remember seeing it before, actually. I had a wheel cover on, so that might have been an issue, or there might have been some kind of interference from farm equipment. In any case, I corrected that in Training Peaks and it gives me a whole 2 extra watts average.
is this 12 watts lower compared to what you could do on a road bike or 12 watts lower than an extrapolation from a TT bike effort? If it's the former, it's very likely par for the course. If it's the latter (as in you expected 95% of your 20min but are instead doing 12watts less than that 95%), it's a sign that you need more adaptation to your position.

don't be so hard on yourself. There's a lot of learning in the first year of ITT (or in my case, first three years)
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echappist - can't remember if you know my history - i'm a crit/road racer who has been relegated to TT only due to too many concussions - I can no longer risk a crash. I was actually pretty decent at crits, as a sprinter. So I'm trying to continue some kind of racing 'career' in my worst discipline, the TT. This year, after some deliberation, I decided not to train with a coach, but rather just ride as much as I wanted and still race.

I definitely have work to do in the position and equipment department, as well as more time on the TT bike (I've been pretty good about that the last month) - but really i just didn't do my homework (meaning, deliberate structured training), and expected to get an A anyway, and that's just dumb. Duh, i need to do my homework.
I do recall you kicking *** and taking names in mass start racing, but didn't realize why you started doing TTs. In a certain sense, having a good plan is even more important in a TT as those efforts tend to translate more directly into results
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If i could realy get the equivalent of 35 free watts out of those changes, that would make a gigantic difference in my results.

sorry if this was stream of consciousness. thanks for reading
Unfortunately, the bulk of that 35 may have come from me shaving my legs, but the other areas (drive train, bottles, helmets, skinsuit etc) are well worth investigating. Your skinsuit should be tight enough that it'd be difficult to stand upright, and I doubt that there are many off-the-rack skinsuits that would do that for someone at your height. This may be an area where you may need to shell out extra dough.

Also, I think you can gain 10 watts of rolling resistance by going to corsa speed tubeless over whatever else you are using.

If you have any photos of your position, and you don't mind sharing them, perhaps you could post it or send it via PM? One other thing you should definitely consider is using 650c wheels as it would make dialing in position a lot easier.

As for workouts, if you've done 2x20s and such for road racing, the bulk of what you need to do for ITT would be quite similar.

If you are thinking of going the coaching route (with someone who knows equipment), @Heathpack and I can both unequivocally recommend a person

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Old 06-18-17, 08:41 PM   #10086
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Bummer about your aero testing snafu's, Heathpack. Hopefully the "practice" session sets you up for a sucessfull second go-round.

You know what? I spent an evening riding my bike in the company of people I really like. Still a very fortunate person, when you look at it that way.
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Old 06-20-17, 09:00 AM   #10087
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You know what? I spent an evening riding my bike in the company of people I really like. Still a very fortunate person, when you look at it that way.
In a nutshell....
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Old 06-20-17, 11:59 AM   #10088
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Lots of good discussion.

I have been at VSC for several sessions lately.
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Old 06-20-17, 03:03 PM   #10089
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So chiming in a bit on @valygrl regarding the TT stuff, I too have gone out under trained and under prepared and figured I could wing it. Sometimes I actually won a crit or road race. Problem is, that doesn't work for TT's. VG and I have chatted a bit about having the crits yanked out from under her and I totally get where her head is at with this.

But I'll also point out that there's a lot that can be done to improve TT performance, some of which has been gone over here. Sara and Heathpack did not start out winning TT jerseys. For both it's been a process. Part on the equipment side, part on the position side, part on the training side. It's ongoing for all of us, but without engaging in the process, you really don't know where you might end up. That's across cycling BTW. When I first started racing I figured I would never be any good at crits. Guess where my first USAC win came from?

Have a friend who was an alternate on an national Olympic match sprint team. He decided he was tired of throwing elbows and wanted to TT. It took him 5 years but he ended up as a state champ against some really good riders. Another friend/client went 56:00 in a 40k recently on 229w. Cats skinned in many different ways.

I know there's always low hanging fruit in "non TT" folks, and even in some pretty good TT folks. I didn't end up looking like the first pic without going through the second.

@Heathpack photo



On a slight side note the silliness of crit monkey's thinking PR's are "participation awards" aside, I approach TT's like this:

Try to have the best ride and best prep possible. That's all you can control. Folks you race against may be better one day and worse the next. Can't let that creep into your head...or figure someone will win by XXX amount. When I raced a lot of TT's and was on the top of my game I'd always go flat out, even when I knew I probably had it in the bag. Because a lot of folks will figure if I am going to win by a minute, that the little break they took midway through really won't matter. So I wanted big margins as part of the mental game. And you never know when someone is really "on", or when you might grab that PR.

That ability to stay focused didn't happen over night either. All part of the process.

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Old 06-20-17, 03:11 PM   #10090
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Counting down to Nats. TNW tonight. Honing the blade.
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Old 06-20-17, 03:48 PM   #10091
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Ex mentioned focus. That was the BIGGEST part I had to learn. Distractions, like "I can't do this, I suck" are part of that. Put that stuff aside, knuckle down, focus, and get to work.

When I focus, even mid pack me can do pretty well. I've been down the "oh, woe is to me" road. It's certain death. VG, you are a hell of a talented athlete, and one of the most driven, detail oriented people I've met in this sport. One race. That's all it was. Keep going.
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Old 06-20-17, 03:52 PM   #10092
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Hellyer today, NOT a race, but a workout. Hot, hot, hot!! 30 lap warmup, then two standing start 2K's with 30 minutes RBI. I don't know the time, I was working on that focus and detail stuff. Seriously, I was! It's all about detail, 1/10 of a second here, 1/100th of a second there. First 2K was so so, I'm still trying to pace them, so I went too soft and then "rested" on laps three and four. Cadence showed that. I ramped laps five and six (2K is six laps of Hellyer) and got the pace up. The second 2K was much smoother, and a little faster, at least by average speed. I don't know the time from that one, either.

I do know those maximal efforts sure do wipe me out!
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Old 06-21-17, 03:46 PM   #10093
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VSC track workout yesterday and Monday. Monday was 3x500 meter chase the motor from a standing start and Tuesday was 3xf200 meters with the first chase the motor, the second alone and the third chase the motor.

I did the solo f200 in 98 gear inches. I had great speed but could not hold the pole lane on the dive off the banking - too much speed. The first turn was not good and I said to myself, I must do better on the second turn and it was worse. The last motor chase f200 was okay.

What I really like about my new coach is his ability to design workouts and include the motor, in some workouts, in a manner that makes it more difficult than on your own. I was at high wattage and higher cadence/ speed behind the motor because he keeps the motor a couple of bike lengths ahead. Hence the motor driver has to know the workout objective and the athlete and pay attention to distance between the motor and the rider while watching where he is going. I am not dissing riding on the motor (close to the rear wheel) per se just that it is too easy but it can develop leg speed.

Also, we do these drills where there is only the motor and the rider on the track. In fact, in our sessions, I am always on the track by myself with the coach.

So I am on rollers, chasing the motor or next to the motor or riding solo and all of my times and speeds are recorded in my coaches book and compared each time to previous efforts. Power and training stress are pretty useless sprinting. Lap times including 1/4, 1/2 and full are much better and accurate indicators of performance on the track.

Also, I have joined the sick sprinters club. Generally, I am sick after each session. I do not puke but my stomach is just nasty and it hangs around for awhile. Generally, I thought the Hoy, MacClean and Trott were exaggerating their puking but if one is fully committed and being pushed to the limit sprinting, one is going to feel bad. It is part of track sprinting.

I have dramatically shortened my warmup and I have been using rollers with a routine that is done by the elite sprinters. It is basically a cadence progression on the rollers, rest, hard efforts, longer rest and change to race gears, hard effort in race gears, longer rest, then race.
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Old 06-22-17, 09:18 AM   #10094
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I am doing a mini UCI fit check / aeor testing at ERO on Tuesday before my training session at VSC. I want to try a new helmet and update my fit.
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Old 06-22-17, 09:54 AM   #10095
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@Hermes, you are doing actual aero testing? Nor sure what you mean by "mini" aero testing? Who are you working with these days?


Yesterday I has a workout on the TT bike. Usually I prefer to do these solo, its just distracting to worry about anyone else, where they are and whether I'm leaving them alone in the dark while I do my thing. But I threw it out there- I'm doing a TT workout, here's what it will be like, anyone want to join. Six friends showed up, lol. Great to see everyone and I had fun. But I missed on two of my three intervals- in part because I was still a little sore from Monday's strength workout, in part because of terrain/traffic, in part because they were hard and in part because I was having too much fun riding with friends, somehow that made me happy-go-lucky rather than focused and determined.


Whatever, I have a JRA on the TT bike on Sat, I'll go out solo and get the intervals done on that ride, as proof of concept.


Today a little climbing ride on the road bike with a few friends, one is a little slower. These were short hills we did- 2-8 min- and at the top of the second one, my slower friend says to me, "I'm going to bail, my HR keeps maxing out on these hills".


??? I told her she should stick it out, her HR is supposed to be high when she's working hard and that's how it gets better. She stuck it out and was glad she did. But her comment just did not compute, she used to work with a coach and train with HR so I have no idea how she has come to believe that a high HR with exertion is a sign to stop riding.


Coffee afterward both days, that was fun. I have been crazy at work and had a work dinner last night and again tonight. Working Friday this week, which I normally don't do. So I got to bed at 10pm last night and was on the bike at 4:30am. I'm sleepy tired. And bike tired.
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Old 06-22-17, 10:09 AM   #10096
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@Heathpack I am doing it with JM. My fit is pretty well established but I want JM to check my pursuit and sprint setup. Then we are going to the track to run a couple of aero tests versus doing 3 hours of testing everything like I did previously.
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Old 06-22-17, 10:12 AM   #10097
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@Heathpack I am doing it with JM. My fit is pretty well established but I want JM to check my pursuit and sprint setup. Then we are going to the track to run a couple of aero tests versus doing 3 hours of testing everything like I did previously.
Pro tip: make sure your speed sensor is working.
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