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  1. #1201
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Excellent!

  2. #1202
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Completed 7 of 10 flip/flop intervals on the fixie on a short hill today on a cloudy 22 degree day. One of my calves began getting twinges of cramping on the descent of #7 and I pulled the plug. The short hill is very steep and going up OTS took me deep in the effort cave, then I reversed and went back down and was hitting 170's rpm at the bottom. The climbing effort was about 45" and the decent about 20" that included the turn around. Starting out into the hill at <20 rpm made the climb a weight lifting exercise with form and technique that will be needed to do the TT starts on the track next summer, which seems a long ways off considering the foot of snow on the ground. The next time I'll concentrate more on rolling the cranks all the way around as to just "push/pull with everything" which I did on the first couple reps. I believe that is one key to a good standing start.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  3. #1203
    West Coast Weenie Esteban58's Avatar
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    Did the Time Crunched Training Program startup field test today. Not sure I did it completely right (too much left in the tank afterwards it seemed), but the HR trace and estimated power was consistent without any major drops, so I should be able to work with it...
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  4. #1204
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
    ...Was a hell of a good time. Racing is just so much fun when you can mix it up in front, huh?
    I wouldn't know, AzT. I had "one of those days" today.

    We had a huge group today, close to 50 riders. Some were visiting from out of state. One of the folks there was my spin instructor, MBRT teammate, Kadria, who I have not ridden with before on the road. I really wanted to stay with her.

    The pace went out fast, and it was a cold morning, so warmup was difficult. When we got to 8th Street (about six miles into the ride), were the pace really elevates, I'm usually warmed up enough to where I can drill the short climb prior to the fast run to Marina. On the short descent following that climb I want to be towards the front, so I can use the strong(er) riders for shelter and recover. Today was no different, but after the climb I got caught out alone, and I had to try to bridge by myself with cramping legs to the breakaway group, which I was not able to do (I was determined to get up to them because Kadria was in that group, and I wanted her wheel - more on her later). A strong rider whom I know and trust came by on my left and offered his wheel, and I blew with that attempt and then was swarmed by a larger group coming up from behind me. I was tired enough then to where I couldn't get a wheel in that group even though there had to be a dozen riders in it with plenty of easy opportunities.

    I wasn't riding at all smart. My zest to stay with my teammate "to show her I could DO IT" caused me to make some foolish decisions rather than riding within myself and with my head. Dumb.

    I didn't really recover from that fracas until the ride was close to over. It's funny, oftentimes I ride crappy early on, only to wake up and ride very strongly late in the game. I did that today. I was slow up the big climb (I almost bailed on it, but I did it), and near the top I started to wake up. I really nailed the three descents after the climb, hitting the rollers between them just right, and then I was right at the front for the field sprint, at well over 30 MPH.

    Kadria is a very strong, very gifted rider. I rate her as close to Ex in ability (yes, I would). I discovered today that I could ONLY stay with her when she wanted me to (like Ex), and then she would put in an effort that I couldn't begin to match and she'd be gone. Up Barloy Canyon Road, she went by me at probably 18 MPH (I was doing 13 and trying to "conserve"), and she just plain made it look easy. She is much younger than I, has impeccable form and natural ability, and plainly outclasses me. Oh, and she's Italian.

    She's not in this shot, but many of the folks who were on the ride today are. This was taken at the top of Barloy (Cat 4 climb).

    Happy New Year!

    Last edited by sarals; 01-01-13 at 07:05 PM.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  5. #1205
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    It's funny, oftentimes I ride crappy early on, only to wake up and ride very strongly late in the game. I did that today.
    Hi Sara. I seem to remember discussing warm-up with you a while back. The older I get, the more I find I have to pay attention to it. Whether racing or training, if I go out fast I will end up being slower than had I ridden conservatively until well into the ride. I think "negative split" so my aim is to ensure I absolutely do not overcook it in the first half. Then I don't waste most of my time recovering from too great an early effort.

    And, of course, I generally avoid group rides most of the time for exactly this reason. There's simply no point in my riding the ride that other people need, instead of the one that I need.

  6. #1206
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I believe that you have been doing a lot of strength work lately. That is fatiguing, and takes time for recovery. It was probably just bad timing. A day or two of more rest and you probably would have been right in there. Try and keep everything in perspective.

    My group ride yesterday was a total disaster. It has always been, and was sold as, right up to the point we took off, as an easy, conversational, enjoyable ride to start the new year. We would all stick together and wait if necessary at the turn points. I had a low TSS target and was going to do my best to hit it. It was in the low 30's at the start, and very windy, 15-20mph with gusts to 40mph from the west/northwest. Everything was going just fine until we hit the onion fields about 8 miles in. The cross/headwind was brutal. Snow was blowing sideways off the fields. It started to split the group up, at least that's what I thought. But it wasn't just the wind. Some tool up front decided to hit the gas and blow the group up. 23mph into a headwind. Here was the perfect place to work together in an echelon and take care of each other, and these selfish *($%#$@#&^*(())_ felt the need to hammer. Nobody said anything, including the ride leader. I picked my way through the carnage to try and get them to back off (there were five, including two club officers, who should have known better), but no dice. I gave them a ration of ^%$# at the next turn, where we waited for five minutes, in what was now high 20's, wind gusts to 40mph, freezing our butts off, waiting for everyone to roll in. And of course, I was the bad guy for having the b*lls to say anything. I'm still pissed off.

  7. #1207
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Good for you, Shovel.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  8. #1208
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    I wouldn't know, AzT. I had "one of those days" today.
    I was at a similar point last year, Sara. I believe we progress in more of a stair-step manner than a smooth curve. You hit a point where you can do something you couldn't do before that has a big impact on your performance. Some of the steps are small, and some are larger. You'll get there... one of the great things about Ex is that he really looks at the numbers, and adjust things accordingly. So just keep following the plan, and learning from each and every ride. You will get there.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  9. #1209
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Shovel, I would have responded much the same as you did. Someone needs to pipe in when that happens. The guys who chased are just as guilty as the instigator. They could have let him fly off on a solo interval which would have sent a powerful message.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  10. #1210
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Shovel, I have given up on group ride management. If I go on a group ride, I expect the behavior you experienced and have an alternative plan. Having said that, I love to ride as a group or team and work together. It is great discipline and builds skills. What is the point of trying to correct others behavior and just get jacked up yourself?

    I ride with my wife or by myself on the road. I like training at the track in groups where it is under control by a supervisor or coach such as Roger Young. And, if I it gets too fast, I can pull out and rejoin on the next effort.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  11. #1211
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Don't get all mad just because I was smart enough to peak for a group ride in January.

  12. #1212
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Don't get all mad just because I was smart enough to peak for a group ride in January.


    Someone got the upside to this whole debacle. I was at the back of the group before it splintered, and I was able to catch the *&$#@!). My power meter cut out at some point before this. I was on the Redline due to the road conditions which uses the Powertap. But I was able to check my HR right before the catch, and it was at 182, which is a full race effort. The upside is that while I have been in S&A and rest mode for quite a while now, I was able to pull that off, and I don't feel sore at all today. It sort of feels like I have a tiny shred of form.

  13. #1213
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    If anyone would, it would be Ex! Shovel, good for you. I agree you did the right thing.

    Ex told me I'd be tired at the end of this cycle, and I apparently am. The group ride was planned in as part of the training, and Ex had me approaching it like a race. As he has told me, the group rides I do are aggressive, and at times should be avoided like the plague, but a other times they'll be folded in. He knows me well enough to know that I just can't avoid a scrap. If someone wants to up the pace or go off, well - me, too. So the best solution for me is not do it at all.

    As for the warmup, I followed my warmup regimen, which is a 5 mile ride from my house at an easy pace, with a couple of openers tossed in to get the blood flowing. Then there is a 10 to 15 minute pause while the group gathers, and then off we go. Usually the first five miles are reasonably sedate, and there is also a regroup with a pause. It didn't work like that yesterday. It was cold, number one (I'm not used to that). Then, there was the added distraction of a rider whom I wanted to impress, too (god, at my age you'd think I'd be past that!). So, I was dumb, like I said.

    AzT, thanks. I have plateaued right now, maybe even regressed a little. I know I'll pick up again. As I get further along I am beginning to see that the plan DOES indeed work, and I am understanding the value of being religious to it.

    Oh - I got a pair of Campy Euros wheels from the BF yesterday, the big lug! I'm pondering what to do them. The L'una seems the best choice. I'll see!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  14. #1214
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    shovelhd, as a Director in my club, I am also a bit of a Ride Nazi when it comes to rides with a stated pace. If someone starts going hard and I am anywhere near the front I let them go and hold a pace the the rest of the group wanted. I will also "remind" people of the agreed-to pace if necessary. That being said, we don't have many rides like that which means there is even less of an excuse for transgressors.

    Yesterday we had a very successful 'B' pace ride and I only had to mention to someone one time that we agreed to that pace.

    BTW, January world champions really irritate me.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  15. #1215
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    BTW, I now have the ability to measure power on my training rides. I just have to figure out what to do with it. I guess I need to read the training with power thread in the 33 and talk with Racer Ex too as I am relatively clueless.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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  16. #1216
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I'm really not a ride policeman. I know what to expect on group rides. Back before I trained with structure during the season, I used to do group rides during the week to get a workout. So I understand why someone would want to hammer on the flats and wait for the others to catch up. Except that this is January in New England, the ride was billed as an easy ride for everyone, and the winds were brutal. Visibility wasn't great due to the blowing snow, and riders were getting blown around, with a single lane, yellow line, and a few feet of frozen snow in the shoulder. The smart thing to do, the safe thing to do, would be to stick together. Town line sprints were deemed verboten, but there were enough short climbs on the route to get your ya-ya's out. There was absolutely NO reason for that kind of behavior on that ride, at that time, in those conditions. It was simply selfless and uncaring. I felt bad for the guys who were at once in a group with shelter and within seconds were struggling madly in groups of one or two. Not once did the gang dropping the hammer look back to check on the others. It was just plain sad.

    I am not going to be racing with this club in 2013. I'm sure I am going to get some feedback at the club meeting next month. But I will be there to pick up my check, and pick up my check I will.

  17. #1217
    West Coast Weenie Esteban58's Avatar
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    Or buy and read Training With a Power Meter (Allen and Coggan), or if you're cheap like me, the Time Crunched Cyclist (Carmichael).
    Last edited by Esteban58; 01-02-13 at 04:01 PM. Reason: spelling... (again)
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  18. #1218
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Allan and Coggan is the best single reference. If you have no idea how to train with structure using a power meter, then follow the Masters racer 16 week FTP improvement program in the book. It's good enough to get you started. I suggest a 20 minute test as your main test.

  19. #1219
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Cleave, happy to help. Need a few day to clear out some projects but give me a buzz next week.

  20. #1220
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    I use the 20 min test as my primary test. But I am not doing any crits, only RRs with climbing.

    For software GoldenCheetah is open source. There's a new 3.0 version coming out which overall is better than 2.x. You can get pre built developer builds from http://goldencheetah.stand2surf.net/

    Even though it's prerelease software they're generally pretty reliable. I use them (Linux version). There's also Mac and PC builds.

    There's also Training Peaks commercial software, both the version that runs on TP's servers and the more traditional version that runs on your Windows PC.

  21. #1221
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    I played with Golden Cheetah. I preferred WKO. I think the brains behind the latter are a bit bigger. Certainly the $$$ support is.

    That said there's more than a few holes in WKO and its assumptions.

  22. #1222
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I use Golden Cheetah 2.0. I don't like the 3.0 interface and the changes. It works fine for communicating with my coach. The only thing missing, really, is the ability to embed comments into each day's workout. I send the fit files zipped up with a summary email instead. However, if said coach had a WKO+ "coaches deal", and that would make life easier, I would do that.

  23. #1223
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    I bombard my coach with emails containing PT and Garmin data constantly. He's been a sport about it. Shovel, I'll do what you do - send them once a week.

    Apparently Poweragent doesn't know enough about me or I don't know enough about it to use it to any advantage. It's a bit "cute" in the way it displays graphs (like Strava and Garmin Connect do), but getting information that would be meaningful requires a lot of digging. I haven't seen where it has any training routines, either. I've used Training Peaks (online), and it's still building my "resume". I can't quite swing the download full version yet, and it doesn't run on my Mac (am I right on that?). I rely on Ex to tell me what I need to do. We had a great conversation last month on what I should focus on and what needs improvement, and I think we're hitting those points now. Oh - so that's why I've been tired! Cha-ching!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  24. #1224
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    I have been to the Cheetah in Atlanta.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #1225
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarals View Post
    I can't quite swing the download full version yet, and it doesn't run on my Mac (am I right on that?).
    Yes, you are right on that, however:

    (a) you can run it within a virtual machine on your Mac (I use VMware Fusion), now, and

    (b) TrainingPeaks has announced that, sometime in the future, they will be releasing a native Mac version.

    TP has focused its development on the web service until recently, when they brought those big brains Ex mentioned back together, to work on improvements to the desktop product. Bear in mind that many of the concepts employed widely today (TSS, TSB, NP, etc) came from that set of brains.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

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