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-   -   Training for Racing All Disciplines (http://www.bikeforums.net/masters-racing-all-disciplines/831203-training-racing-all-disciplines.html)

Red Rider 07-30-12 10:29 PM

Recovery ride today.

Riding downwind and downhill tempted me to push, but I kept a handle on my heart rate and cadence, and as my legs were still toast from yesterday's effort, I found it easy to stay within my goals for this ride.

Tomorrow is a day off, something I find that chafes me, yet is as necessary as the training rides.

Ride hard, recover harder = new mantra.

Red Rider 08-01-12 11:44 AM

Time for more hills. I cut short my original plan. I ran out of time.

Hermes 08-01-12 12:31 PM

Nice RR. BTW, using the VAM of 963 and assuming an average grade of 8% and your weight at 141 pounds, I calculate your power at 220 watts versus the 193 watts indicated by Strava which makes more sense based upon your VAM, weight and climbing speed. That also makes more sense based upon your Putah time trial results. Strava power is all over the map. In general, it looks high to me based upon results but in this case, it is low. And the problem is inconsistency. YMMV.

However, 963 is a good VAM for .7 miles.

Racer Ex 08-01-12 02:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Tired today.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=264859

Red Rider 08-01-12 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermes (Post 14554728)
Nice RR. BTW, using the VAM of 963 and assuming an average grade of 8% and your weight at 141 pounds, I calculate your power at 220 watts versus the 193 watts indicated by Strava which makes more sense based upon your VAM, weight and climbing speed. That also makes more sense based upon your Putah time trial results. Strava power is all over the map. In general, it looks high to me based upon results but in this case, it is low. And the problem is inconsistency. YMMV.

However, 963 is a good VAM for .7 miles.

Thanks, H. I really don't know how to rate VAM -- I lack context. Damn you, Strava! :bang:

So you're saying that Strava is inconsistent?

If not, please point me in the direction of my inconsistency, so I can go crush it. My goals for this month and next do not include inconsistency.

I'm still secretly celebrating how easy it was to climb that hill the last 2 times. I've been climbing it since '07 and never has it felt so easy before this week.

I think I've turned a corner. :D

shovelhd 08-02-12 05:23 AM

Strava power is wildly inaccurate, even if you have a power meter. Fortunately, it displays low for me most of the time, so anyone doing recon on me hopefully gets a surprise when reality hits them.

Hermes 08-02-12 08:25 AM

RR, Here is the definition of VAM and the formulas for calculating Watts/kg from VAM and and % grade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity

You are not inconsistent. It is Strava that is inconsistent in its power calculation. Strava does not measure power but calculates it. I know one of the Strava guys so I will ask him how they do it. Wind and road conditions influence how much power is required to move a bicycle at a given speed as well as rider body position.

The good thing about VAM is that cyclists tend to climb the same hills so that the road and wind conditions are similar. And rate of climb is what racing is about.

Hermes 08-03-12 09:35 AM

On the TT bike last night. I have had a breakout moment in the TT position. Last night, it felt like I did not have a chain. Anything was possible and 400 watts was easy - at least for a little while. The key for me is the position and adaptation. It has taken a long time but I am now lower, flat back and forward. When I pedal, I feel like I am floating on the tip of nose of the saddle and almost standing on the pedals. With a flatter back, my upper spine is pointing parallel to the road versus down, so that even though I am lower, I have good visibility since I can raise my head. Conversely, I can more easily turtle my head if I want to. The most important factor which is speed has increased for the same amount of power.

We will see how all this works out in upcoming track races.

Thanks Racer Ex for your help and motivation on the position.

Hermes 08-04-12 03:56 PM

45 minute easy ride yesterday. Today, it was back on the TT bike for Kilos. After a warmup and threshold effort, I did a kilo from a slow roll standing startdown slight grade that goes flat. The wind was cross to a slight head wind.

Time 1:12
Power 376
Max Power 734
Cadence 105
Speed 30.8

After a 15 minute rest, warm down, stretch and recover, I did a flying kilo on the same course
Time 1:05
Power 406
Max Power 522
Cadence 110
Speed 34.5

I was really happy with the second kilo since I was able to carry a lot of speed throughout the effort and I was pretty aero. I am not sure how this will relate to the track but it was not a bad proxy. After the flying effort, I think all the oxygen was pulled out of my blood because when I stopped and really started to gasp for air, it did not seem like there was any.

sarals 08-04-12 04:13 PM

I've done two short early morning rides, one yesterday, and a very short one today (dark and wet roads - recipe for a crash, so I terminated the ride). I'll have a training plan soon and I want to be ready to start it. I also have another crit next Saturday, and I want to be as ready as I can considering my current state of fitness.

Speaking of Strava and power, I've always felt it was off. There is an explanation in the Strava FAQ's on how they calculate, and there admissions from them that they don't take wind and road conditions into account, because they can't (obviously). What tickles me is the ridiculous wattage I see when I'm descending. It's very high, and that's because the Strava algorithm is based on cadence and forward speed, and does not take the direction of the grade into account.

I'm very curious to see what my real numbers will be when the Powertap goes on my bike. I know my relative output is low right now, but I can't wait to see what I really can do.

AzTallRider 08-04-12 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermes (Post 14562601)
I have had a breakout moment in the TT position.

Congratulations, Hermes. It's amazing how much difference position makes, and I think it takes a racer to know what might work and what might not, when it comes to power production.

AzTallRider 08-04-12 06:27 PM

Training for Racing All Disciplines
 
Strava is a great social tool for cycling, but when it comes to data collection and analysis, well, it's a great social tool.

Sara, I can't wait to read what you are reporting after you've been coached for awhile. Once your energy is targeted, it will open up a new world for you.

Allegheny Jet 08-04-12 07:23 PM

I went to the velodrome yesterday evening to do the long sprint set that was assigned for today. I did 2 x 200, 2 x 350, 1 x 500 and 2 x 200 to wrap it up. A totally different experiance as compared to doing the work on a country road. It was a major rush flying around the track at 33+ mph. It seemed to take forever to slow down after the efforts.

I'll be ordering a 49 and 50 tooth ring as well as a 14 and 16 gear. Right now my bike has a 48 x 15 and I was sprinting at 125 - 133 rpm. I Dont know for sure but think I should be around 100 rpm on the longer efforts.

I hope today's really poor ride, that I aborted and did an easy spin, was the result of yesterday's hard efforts.

Hermes 08-04-12 07:56 PM

A'Jet, That is a lot of track sprinting for a rookie trackie. Track efforts are 100% everything you have and one effort is a lot. The high cadence fixed gear aspect make the effort, IMO, much more taxing on the cardio and neuromuscular systems. If one does a sprint tournament which is one flying 200 to qualify and 3 to 4, 3 lap match sprints culminating in a max effort flying 200, it is a monster workout.

You will need a bigger gear but you will also need to spin it at the same rate.:D

Hermes 08-04-12 08:03 PM

I think the Strava segment times and VAM are accurate. Our Low Key Hill Climbs have verified the climb times and VAM. However, the rest is pretty much tourista / social BS.

Allegheny Jet 08-04-12 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermes (Post 14567589)
A'Jet, That is a lot of track sprinting for a rookie trackie. Track efforts are 100% everything you have and one effort is a lot. The high cadence fixed gear aspect make the effort, IMO, much more taxing on the cardio and neuromuscular systems. If one does a sprint tournament which is one flying 200 to qualify and 3 to 4, 3 lap match sprints culminating in a max effort flying 200, it is a monster workout.

You will need a bigger gear but you will also need to spin it at the same rate.:D

Hermes, I have done the same workout on roads and I do each interval at max effort for the distance. I do allow 8 - 10 minutes recovery between efforts. It is one of those very hard workouts that does beat me up. I believe the track dynamic added to the after effects.

Sprinting different distances has allowed me to meter the effort and not blow up and also to react to others during the battle. I approach the intervals the same as when I ran track. If the workload was 6 x 300 with 5min recovery I would probably run each interval @ 95% of a one time race effort.

I think that track cycling fits my strengths, now it is time to study up.

Hermes 08-04-12 09:02 PM

A'Jet, The degree of difficulty of road versus track is probably an individual aspect of the athlete. You will learn over time how it affects you. For MEA and me, we find that track is a lot harder and the TSS is not relevant. We manually score a higher number for track. And that is not to say the road is easy. To the contrary, it is very difficult but has to be scored differently.

I am happy that you have your track to train and race on.

Red Rider 08-04-12 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermes (Post 14557789)
RR, Here is the definition of VAM and the formulas for calculating Watts/kg from VAM and and % grade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity

You are not inconsistent. It is Strava that is inconsistent in its power calculation. Strava does not measure power but calculates it. I know one of the Strava guys so I will ask him how they do it. Wind and road conditions influence how much power is required to move a bicycle at a given speed as well as rider body position.

The good thing about VAM is that cyclists tend to climb the same hills so that the road and wind conditions are similar. And rate of climb is what racing is about.

Thanks, H, I've read that a couple of times, and am not sure I get it. I'll return and relearn.

Without a coach, with my background as a personal trainer/coach, I tend to train intuitively and conservatively. I give it up on the PCSD rides and some group rides, otherwise I'm solo, and we know how that goes..."Today we're going to do 6x10 intervals" "legs are weak, so now what?" "Today we're going to have a recovery ride." Ad nauseum, ad infinitum. And I don't speak Latin.

I just go out and pound it. I hope for the best and if it happens, great. If not, it's learning.

sarals 08-04-12 11:37 PM

Okay, I should have an accurate number by now, but I don't. I need my maximum "cycling heart rate" for my coach. The last one I got, a few months ago, was performed on a treadmill, running at full speed at 6 degrees of tilt, after about 20 minutes of varying efforts to warm up. It was 164, and it was valid for a run (even though I've seen higher in a final kick in 10K races), but I've learned since NOT for the bike. So, I've looked at my highest rates in bike races, and they run pretty consistently close together, 158 - 160. That may be my number, but I can't be sure. Can anyone suggest a "sure fire" method of obtaining a realistic real world cycling max heart rate? I've read all the "warm up forever and then go at it hard for three minutes" coaching lessons on line. Are they valid?

shovelhd 08-05-12 05:52 AM

I would ask your coach, but to answer your question, I would go with your highest known HR no matter what the sport.

sarals 08-05-12 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shovelhd (Post 14568312)
I would ask your coach, but to answer your question, I would go with your highest known HR no matter what the sport.

Okay, thanks Shovel. (It would be 164).

I tried one of the "stationary bike" methods just a little while ago to find my MHR. That was the wrong time of day to try that! I'm still dizzy. I managed to eek out 149 before I blew up (in a big way!). Here that attempt is....

Allegheny Jet 08-05-12 07:51 AM

Sara, I believe that you would need to get a good WU of at least 25-30 minutes that includes getting into Z4 for a few minutes followed by few 3-4 minute intervals where you really push it so you just reach Z5 HR. Finally for the real one, do the same 4 minute interval and at 3 minutes keep pushing the effort until the body begins to fail and at that point "attack with everything you got" for 20 seconds. That should show a high HR. I think your 30 minute effort was more of a 20 minute test to determine LTHR than MHR.

I sometimes have to do 4 minute Z5 hills that enables me to get mead MHR.

sarals 08-05-12 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet (Post 14568454)
Sara, I believe that you would need to get a good WU of at least 25-30 minutes that includes getting into Z4 for a few minutes followed by few 3-4 minute intervals where you really push it so you just reach Z5 HR. Finally for the real one, do the same 4 minute interval and at 3 minutes keep pushing the effort until the body begins to fail and at that point "attack with everything you got" for 20 seconds. That should show a high HR. I think your 30 minute effort was more of a 20 minute test to determine LTHR than MHR.

I sometimes have to do 4 minute Z5 hills that enables me to get mead MHR.

Hmmm. Thanks, AJ. You know, it's possible then that I've only seen my max heart rate but a few times. For the times I thought I was close I was at LTHR? I feel THAT bad at LTHR? Whew....!

Allegheny Jet 08-05-12 08:34 AM

Latcate build up makes one feel like they will die due the pain in the body. Hitting MHR makes one wish they could die during the 30 or more seconds after shutting off the effort to hit MHR.

shovelhd 08-05-12 08:43 AM

I have never hit Max HR in training, only in races. I have only hit my Max HR twice, once when I set it, and once when I broke it.


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