Tom Stormcrowe

We're thinking about moving the Racing Forums out to the main page, as a category.

Inside would be:

1. Juniors Club(For the Newbies and <23 crowd)
2. The 33 (Officially named, "The 33", y the way....)
3. Masters Club(50+)

with pointer links on the main index, like regional Forums has.

chasm54

Great idea. But some of us were talking and thought it might be better to just call the Masters sub forum "Masters" without any defining age limit. Self-selection will probably work fine, and some of the 40+ crowd might like to talk to us old farts from time to time.

sarals 

Doubt it.

VanceMac

Makes much more sense. You'll get a vocal 10% who decry the change as apocalyptic, then forget it even happened 15 minutes later.

jdon

Do it

nacler22

Being low on chips, I'm all in.

My only real concern would be a loss in the signal to noise ratio.

revchuck 

Tom - Sounds good. I agree with chasm54 that we shouldn't associate a number with the Master's subforum.

valygrl

I'm thinking it is a good idea in concept but may need a little adjustment.

Attenuates the wisdom across too many places. will the experienced folks really hang out in the newb forum and answer questions, or will it jsut be the kiddie pool? Where will the senior & masters newbies post? Main race forum? Newb/junior? 33?

Calling it "the 33" is cute but exclusive for those of us already in there. Folks new to the site wont know what it is. Is that what you intend?

Is there a main road race forum, with those three subforums, or is that the 33? Or is the 33 the RTT/shooting the bull forum?

chasm54

Good points, valygirl. I'm less worried about spreading out the wisdom because at least we'll all be in one forum, and I envisage a good deal of cross-fertilisation between the 33 and the other two sub-forums. I was assuming the 33 became the new racing forum with masters and juniors as two sub-forums, but agree both that that needs clarifying and that "the 33" needs explanation. As for the kiddie pool, I'd certainly be happy to drop in there from time to time, the more so now that I'm sponsoring a youth team. I'm sure that some other old gits with more experience than I of how things happen in the US would do the same. Maybe a mod could be found with an interest in coaching/junior racing?

shovelhd

In a utopian world, the proposed organization...new racers, racers, masters racers, makes a lot of sense. However, before any change is made, the history and culture of the existing forums should be reviewed.

New racers just aren't going to want to hang around with new racers. That's not how racer's minds work. It's always cat up, now. Get out of Cat5 as soon as possible. Everybody is sketchy except me. I'm sure that there are a few people out there contemplating racing that would like to hear from others that recently made the jump, but I think most would rather ask someone who has raced for a while. I also wonder how much Juniors and U23's will want to collaborate with themselves. So I just don't see a value for a U23 forum unless they have been asking for it. Steering threads to that subforum won't work unless we are going to be checking ID's.

The 33 is the 33. The signal to noise ratio is low. It can be snarky and sometimes nasty. People can get defensive. Piling on is common. But it is the default place for racers here. Everyone is welcome including new racers as long as they have thick skin. No amount of forum renaming or moving will change that culture. I have no problem with it, but somebody does, on a regular basis.

The 50+ racing forum is different. No thick skin is required. Snarky stuff is rare. It's a very friendly place to both newcomers and established racers. Looking in from the 33 it must look like the geriatric kiddie pool. That's fine, at least the water is warm and there aren't any sharks. If moving the forums would change this culture, then I'd be against it. BTW not everyone is 50+ in that forum.

My advice would be to leave the 33 alone and move the Masters 50+ Racing forum under Road Cycling and rename it to Masters Racing (30+).

sarals 

I go with Shovel.

People are going to gravitate towards what attracts them. The 33 has it's stalwarts, so does this place. I believe a "New Racer" forum would in time, too. Sure, most people there would want to move on quickly, but I think it's needed.

Hermes

I agree with Shovel and Valygrl.

IMO, learning to race is an apprenticeship. New racers learn from more experienced journeymen racers and mentors who are willing to share experiences. And smart new racers take advantage of the advice and some do not.

IMO, the 50+ racing forum has a culture that wants to grow the membership and learn from each other. I like the fact that I have met racers on the 50+ racing forum and raced with them and know them socially.

I also like that most of the 50+ posters actually race and I like that all disciplines / technologies (road, track, mountain and cyclocross) are included.

sarals 

It's a viable forum! I hope the new racing forum is, too.

wphamilton

I wonder how many people lurk those forums without participating or even racing? From that broader perspective, if that's frequent, the move and consolidation makes sense.

chasm54

I agree with a lot of what you say, shovel, but not with this. I wouldn't like to see us move from being a sub-forum of 50+ just to become another sub-forum of road. The principal attraction of the idea, for me, is to establish the racing forum.

I've said enough, both here and in the 33. Obviously I'll go with what is decided.

shovelhd

Hey, we are all getting our say and we don't have to agree. I can see your point and it makes a lot of sense.

Cleave

Hi Tom, I agree with shovelhd about the "culture" of each forum. I used to spend a lot of time in the "33" because that was the only place to read and "converse" about amateur racing. However, I am NOT snarky by nature (well maybe a bit inside my head) and filtering through the snarkiness is kind of a chore for me. I still lurk in 33 but I don't spend a lot of time there because even though the signal-to-noise ratio is lower than in the 41, it's still higher than I like. BTW, one person's signal may be another person's noise. Also, BTW, I understand the culture of the 33 and I don't want to change it. It's just not my regular cup of tea.

As for this sub forum, obviously the culture is much more to my liking. I like the fact that it's in a spot where older Masters racers are more likely to find it, rather than younger Masters. At least in my locale, younger Masters have a much different mindset towards racing and all levels of racers than older Masters. Somewhat joking, but not completely, I think younger male Masters (under 50) haven't had enough of a decline in testosterone to temper some of their thinking.

In fact, in SoCal, we have an unofficial but very active network of 55+ / 60+ Masters that have been able to re-shape some races out here. Our latest "triumph" was getting this year's district criterium championships separated as they have been in prior years. This year's promoter wanted to combine 55+ and 60+ together (scored separately) and an email campaign got us separate races which ALL of us preferred. (Combined races can greatly change race dynamics.)

What I'd like to preserve is the calmer, gentler, and more encouraging nature of this sub forum. Of course if it becomes a Masters-any-age sub forum, I hope some of the more boisterous Masters will self-select themselves to post in a more boisterous sub forum.

Hermes

Cleave makes some great points.

I like the racing content of this forum and it is meant to be factual and constructive.

I like banter, humor, occasional trash talking and debate. It is always about the balance.

In some ways, a boutique racing sub forum tucked away in a 50+ beginner / recreational forum may be the way to go.

AzTallRider

Holy cow... we racers aren't just a top-level forum, we are a whole danged section.

gsteinb

well, here it is.

revchuck 

And so we are! Thanks, Gary.

chasm54

Looks good. I hadn't realised it might be a top-level domain, but I like the idea. Obviously the 33 will remain the most active forum, but I hope a few of its more elderly residents drop in here from time to time - now they knowthis place exists.

shovelhd

****

gsteinb

fair enough