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Masters Racing (All Disciplines) Race on the track or road or on your mountainbike in the Masters Category? Want to talk tactics, strategy and training with your peers?

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Old 05-25-13, 12:44 PM   #101
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CDR, your blog is just terrific. You must like bicycles or something. Seriously, you've got a wealth of information on there - thank you for the links!
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Old 05-25-13, 12:45 PM   #102
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Cool. How about brake pads? Do you have dual purpose pads, or do you swap them when you swap the wheels?
No. My training wheels are 50mm psimet carbon clinchers. My race wheels are Zipp 404 tubulars. I use Reynolds cryo blue pads.

Today was the first time I have ridden carbon clinchers in the rain. Better on a training ride than in a race. I learned a lot.
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Old 05-25-13, 01:03 PM   #103
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No. My training wheels are 50mm psimet carbon clinchers. My race wheels are Zipp 404 tubulars. I use Reynolds cryo blue pads.

Today was the first time I have ridden carbon clinchers in the rain. Better on a training ride than in a race. I learned a lot.
I see, carbon all the way around. I take it the braking was "less than" in the wet?

After talking with the owner for the last few days, and doing some other research (here and elsewhere on the Interweb), I bought these:



They come with good tubulars already mounted, a new spare tire, a new 12/25 cassette, and skewers. They're 47mm deep, 1580 grams the set, and in excellent, excellent condition. No brake pads, though. The big part is that they were inexpensive. They will be my introduction to the tubular racing world, a stepping stone. I'd like to have them for the SG, but I won't. However, I will have them for a crit on June 22.
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Old 05-25-13, 01:03 PM   #104
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I also stick with carbon, so I don't need to swap pads. I use Zipp Tangente Platinum pads. They wear fast, but aren't grabby, and dissipate heat well, by essentially melting. My only alloy wheels are on the TT bike, and the Gunnar backup bike. I never swap wheels on the Gunnar, and hardly ever brake on the TT bike when in race mode. You brake once for the turnaround, but that's it. So I use the same pads on the TT bike for both the alloy trainers and the race wheels. I just make sure they haven't picked up any grit or alloy shavings.
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Old 05-25-13, 01:50 PM   #105
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Sarah, make sure to perform CDR's roll test before riding those wheels. I wouldn't trust anyone else's glue job but my own, but I can see why you wouldn't want to deal with it. Just make sure it's safe. Rolling a tire in a crit often produces spectacular results.
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Old 05-25-13, 02:13 PM   #106
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Sarah, make sure to perform CDR's roll test before riding those wheels. I wouldn't trust anyone else's glue job but my own, but I can see why you wouldn't want to deal with it. Just make sure it's safe. Rolling a tire in a crit often produces spectacular results.
Shovel, absolutely will do. BTW, these are Corima Aero wheels, 24 spoke, with UFO tubulars.
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Old 05-25-13, 02:21 PM   #107
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My eyes are wide open. This good stuff. Stupid question coming up, so either duck it, or answer it (Botto says I'm an idiot, remember). Which do you experienced guys prefer over the other (I won't say which is better), and why? Tubular or clincher (I know tubulars are lighter - I think I know that).
let it go.
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Old 05-25-13, 02:24 PM   #108
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let it go.
I have. I'm teasing.
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Old 05-25-13, 03:43 PM   #109
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Oh $&^#... 33 leakage.
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Old 05-25-13, 03:50 PM   #110
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Oh $&^#... 33 leakage.


We only thought we were safe....!
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Old 05-25-13, 04:24 PM   #111
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Shovel, absolutely will do. BTW, these are Corima Aero wheels, 24 spoke, with UFO tubulars.
UFO = Tufo. I am racing on Special 33's at the moment.
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Old 05-25-13, 04:30 PM   #112
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Sara - since you got the tubbies, you no longer need the Cosmic Carbones, right? I'll take them off your hands for $20...you pay shipping. Deal?
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Old 05-25-13, 05:00 PM   #113
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Oh $&^#... 33 leakage.
Indeed, my wheel thread has gone to hell in a hand basket...
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Old 05-25-13, 05:13 PM   #114
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Oh $&^#... 33 leakage.
time to change your depends.
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Old 05-25-13, 05:31 PM   #115
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This is the Master's forum, after all.
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Old 05-25-13, 06:17 PM   #116
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Cool. How about brake pads? Do you have dual purpose pads, or do you swap them when you swap the wheels?
I use Kool Stop pads. When I had the black pads (dry weather) I didn't bother changing them between the Ardennes/Jets (alum rim clinchers) and the Stingers. I used two sets up in 3? years. The black KoolStop pads don't work in the wet, on aluminum or on carbon.

I went to Kool Stop dual compound salmon/black for a short time, few months last year and early this year. I didn't bother changing them between wheels either. I don't recall riding much in the rain with them.

I happened to put brakes on the red bike that have salmon KS pads (wet). I leave them on when switching between wheels. The salmon pads work well on carbon for sure, takes that one revolution to wipe off the rim and then the brakes are pretty good. In the wet last Sunday I was pleasantly surprised.

I found that carbon rims seem to feel better under braking in the wet, i.e. the pads grab better. Seems like the aluminum feel like they're oiled. It might be that the heat builds up quicker in carbon so it gets dry quicker? I don't know. Both are bad when you first apply brakes. On carbon (particularly Reynolds - I did a lot of wet training rides one year on DV46 clinchers) I always worried about the tire slipping because the brakes grabbed the rim well. On aluminum I worry about stopping or slowing enough - I was highly conscious of this when I was descending down a very steep (15%?) grade that ended at a stop sign. I'd done the descent a couple times in the wet on carbon so when I went on the descent on aluminum I waited before I braked. I almost ran through the 4 way intersection and I was grabbing the levers so hard I started worrying about my brake cable anchor bolt torque values and such. I went faster and felt more in control on the carbon rims.

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Which do you experienced guys prefer over the other (I won't say which is better), and why? Tubular or clincher (I know tubulars are lighter - I think I know that).
One particular win on a flat tubular that I enjoy watching, mainly for the commentator's remarks. It's in the post on "why tubulars" but it's still fun to watch.

I used to train on tubulars. I don't get many flats whichever type of tire I use but flatting a tubular is a lot more expensive. Also with carbon rims, especially the wide ones, it's not really good to ride the flat home like I used to do on the "normal" size aluminum rims.

Tubulars don't pinch flat. Cross racers regularly run their tires at 25-28psi.
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Old 05-25-13, 06:35 PM   #117
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time to change your depends.
Nah, just time to reload

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Old 05-25-13, 06:41 PM   #118
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Nah, just time to reload

Don't make me come back there.....
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Old 05-25-13, 06:51 PM   #119
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CDR, as always - great stuff!

Estaban, I am sorry for stealing your thread!!! Really, I am!

CDR - reading through Corima's website, I found that they (of course) strongly advise to use only their pads on their rims. Then again, I've found where people say use only Swiss Stop on carbon. You're using Kool Stop Salmon, and about that there are those over on RoadBike who say "Never on carbon!". However - I defer to you. You've made the best case by far on braking.
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Old 05-25-13, 08:14 PM   #120
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CDR - reading through Corima's website, I found that they (of course) strongly advise to use only their pads on their rims. Then again, I've found where people say use only Swiss Stop on carbon. You're using Kool Stop Salmon, and about that there are those over on RoadBike who say "Never on carbon!". However - I defer to you. You've made the best case by far on braking.
I try and present just what I've experienced. The problem here is I don't have any Corimas, never did (although I wanted to get some). I don't know Corima rims except that they make the Campy carbon rims so anything you read about the Campy rims will apply to Corima (I think). I have some basic understanding of what happens when a rider applies the brakes (movement -> heat energy), I see what happens with my equipment, and I'm willing to risk equipment to test things.

I find that Leonard Zinn seems to answer questions with an open mind as well. I'd poke around the intraweb to see what people have recommended for various wheels/rims/etc.

I should take pictures of the Stingers as a follow up to the original post on the Stingers I did because the rims look fine, even with using the KS pads on both alum and carbon rims. The Stinger 6s were my primary race wheels for 2010-2012.

Keep in mind that I don't do massive descents and such on my Stingers. I did train pretty regularly in 2010 (black pads on Ardennes, Jets, and Stingers), less so in 2011-2012.

On the other hand I have a teammate that has Planet X 50mm carbon tubulars. I don't know what pads he's using but his wheels look a bit wrecked only a couple months after he got them. I need to ask him about his brakes and such.
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Old 05-26-13, 11:36 AM   #121
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CDR, I talked to the previous owner of the Corimas this morning (well, I emailed him), and he said he's been using Kool Stop Salmons with no issues. In fact, he was surprised I asked!
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Old 05-26-13, 11:37 AM   #122
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One more thing. If you ride and/or race in the rain, be diligent about cleaning the bike, and especially the wheels and brake pads afterwards. You should do that with any wheelset but especially carbon. The scrim has a finite life, and there's no need to accelerate wear if it can be avoided. Dawn and a sponge work great. No, you can't borrow Dawn to wash your bike.
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Old 05-26-13, 12:13 PM   #123
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One more thing. If you ride and/or race in the rain, be diligent about cleaning the bike, and especially the wheels and brake pads afterwards. You should do that with any wheelset but especially carbon. The scrim has a finite life, and there's no need to accelerate wear if it can be avoided. Dawn and a sponge work great. No, you can't borrow Dawn to wash your bike.
But you can use Sara!

I'm very fanatic about my bikes, Shovel. Still, that's great advice - thanks!
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Old 05-26-13, 01:55 PM   #124
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A few late comments. I only use tubulars for racing, except for mid-week training races where I use my training clinchers (PowerTap) on my training road bike. I stopped using tubulars for training in the late 1980s when better clincher tires and rims came to the market. Until then, I'd repair tubulars during lunch at work. These days, I give away my punctured tubulars. Last year I gave away several tires.

Since my race wheels are carbon tubular, I have a set (actually two sets) of carbon clinchers so that I don't have to worry about changing brake pads when I train on my race bike and so that I have a set of carbon wheels for spares at races.

Personally, I haven't noticed much difference in pad wear between different brands of brake pads. The pads that last the longest have been Zipp pads. Cork-based pads wear very quickly in my experience. Haven't noticed much performance difference between the different brands. Maybe I don't brake enough.

I have used TUFO tape on and off over the past 5 years. I had stopped using it but I will admit that after all of the flat tires that I had last year, I am using TUFO tape right now on my race wheels. I will go back to glue for the next set of tires as I am nervous about the tape -- even though I've never rolled a tire when I've used it.

Speaking of rolled tires, I've only rolled a tire on two occasions; once training back in the 1970s (I didn't crash) and once in a race in the early 1980s (I crashed while on a solo break). After the second incident I figured out how to glue tires properly.
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Old 05-29-13, 05:16 PM   #125
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i'll throw in a plug for Reynold Cryo Blue pads. This past weekend's race had a controlled (read neutral) descent to the bottom of the finishing climb. The climb is as follows: 1.1 miles @ 12%, 0.4 miles flat, 2 miles @ 7.5%. Basically you had to ride the brakes on the way down as everyone else was going slow. A few people definitely blew out their tubes (carbon clinchers) due to over-heating, and someone was actually looking for a valve extender at the start. I stopped basically after 3.5 miles of descent as i didn't want to risk anything and walked 0.5 miles to the start. The rim was pretty damn hot, to be sure, but the pad seemed okay, as did the tire itself (running tubulars glued on using Mastik).

Later on, we had a fun 3 mile descent at 7.7% with quite a few bends, 9 of which i'd describe as lazy hairpins or sharper. Basically slam the brake late, round through the bend, and carry on. I felt pretty confident through those as well. I will also add that despite being a somewhat windy day, the stinger 6 F&R set up seemed very stable. This is in quite a bit of contrast with my 2009 zipp 404 front clincher, which is quite a bit more wobbly on long descents when there's wind.
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