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  1. #26
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    If the headtube were 15-20mm taller in XL, I'd be wondering which bill I could put off paying for a week...
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  2. #27
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
    If the headtube were 15-20mm taller in XL, I'd be wondering which bill I could put off paying for a week...
    I like the head tube height, but otherwise, that's what I'm thinking.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  3. #28
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Flexy smexy...

    My hope is that all of my 500 meter competitors think this is BS and marketing and buy flexible frames.
    I'm wondering if the 2010 Fugi Elite track frame that is sitting in my office is flexible?
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  4. #29
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    I'm wondering if the 2010 Fugi Elite track frame that is sitting in my office is flexible?
    I sure hope so. When you blast out of the starting gate you can go left and spring right.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #30
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I sure hope so. When you blast out of the starting gate you can go left and spring right.
    Squiggly, yet compliant.
    oldschool areodynamic brick

  6. #31
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
    Squiggly, yet compliant.
    I have a strong feeling you could make a truck frame flex.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  7. #32
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    I found this yesterday. It and the 2011 Raleigh Team share the same frame. I haven't ridden either bike, but I did get to look a 50 CM Team over extensively a few months ago. It was silly light, built up (SRAM Red) the Team I saw was just over 14 pounds (without pedals). By all accounts it's stiff, it is a not terribly forgiving ride (like the Fuji SST), and it does have classic geometry. The difference between the Prestige and Team of 2011 as compared to the current Militas is that the Militas has internal cable routing (big deal), has thinner seat stays, and is made from a different grade of carbon. The geometry is the the same. The available frame size, 53 CM, might be a tad big for me. I need to check my Bianchi, which is also a 53 CM frame. I think the top tube on it and the Raleigh are the same length. The seat tube might be a little longer on the Raleigh. I know the standover height is the same. This, I think, is worth investigating!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  8. #33
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Hida Yanra in the 33 races a Raleigh as does one of our local Cat1 teams.

  9. #34
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Hida Yanra in the 33 races a Raleigh as does one of our local Cat1 teams.
    I've only seen the Team in a bike shop, the one where my Look came from. I saw a Militas in Mike's Bikes in Sausalito. I don't know anyone who rides the Raleigh "race bikes". They aren't well known. I think that's because Raleigh made big box store bikes for a long time, and hence the association. The Team I looked at sure seemed nice, as did the Militas, like the "real deal". That Prestige just might be "the one". The price is right!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  10. #35
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Hi sarals, something doesn't seem right to me. I know that you had a fitting and I know that your coach is also giving you input. Somehow it seems like you're looking at bikes that are too big. I haven't looked at the Raleigh frame geometry charts, but I ride bikes that are listed as 52 cm or 53 cm. On some more extreme compact frames, such as the Lapierre that I had for a season, the size is 49 cm. I have a significant amount of saddle to handlebar drop but nothing extreme so I'm not sizing my frames really small like many current professionals.

    Many moons ago when I was doing bike fittings, back when there really weren't women-specific frame geometries, most women that I fitted ended up with slightly smaller frames based on their leg length because the cockpit length of frames sized to their leg length was too long. We know that really short stems with narrow bars that many women need can lead to excessive sensitivity to steering input.

    If you were looking at women-specific frames I would be less concerned. Also, I know there are some fitters that say women-specific geometries aren't needed for women and that these frame designs are just a way for manufacturers to make more money, but my concern still holds on your frame sizes.

    Feel free to tell me to take a hike because you've been up and down this sizing road a bunch of times. I just thought I'd give you another perspective. Maybe you need to get with another fitter for a second opinion because one thing I always say and still stand by is that you (I) can't fit someone to a bike over the internet.

    As far a Raleigh goes, they used to make great race bikes through the 1980s. I think the original company went bankrupt of another company bought them. Regardless, their bikes fell out of favor with the racer crowd. I don't know anything about their current bikes but the frame you are looking at looks pretty reasonable on paper.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
    "Real men wear pink."
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  11. #36
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Hi sarals, something doesn't seem right to me. I know that you had a fitting and I know that your coach is also giving you input. Somehow it seems like you're looking at bikes that are too big. I haven't looked at the Raleigh frame geometry charts, but I ride bikes that are listed as 52 cm or 53 cm. On some more extreme compact frames, such as the Lapierre that I had for a season, the size is 49 cm. I have a significant amount of saddle to handlebar drop but nothing extreme so I'm not sizing my frames really small like many current professionals.

    Many moons ago when I was doing bike fittings, back when there really weren't women-specific frame geometries, most women that I fitted ended up with slightly smaller frames based on their leg length because the cockpit length of frames sized to their leg length was too long. We know that really short stems with narrow bars that many women need can lead to excessive sensitivity to steering input.

    If you were looking at women-specific frames I would be less concerned. Also, I know there are some fitters that say women-specific geometries aren't needed for women and that these frame designs are just a way for manufacturers to make more money, but my concern still holds on your frame sizes.

    Feel free to tell me to take a hike because you've been up and down this sizing road a bunch of times. I just thought I'd give you another perspective. Maybe you need to get with another fitter for a second opinion because one thing I always say and still stand by is that you (I) can't fit someone to a bike over the internet.

    As far a Raleigh goes, they used to make great race bikes through the 1980s. I think the original company went bankrupt of another company bought them. Regardless, their bikes fell out of favor with the racer crowd. I don't know anything about their current bikes but the frame you are looking at looks pretty reasonable on paper.
    Cleave, you ask great questions. I was and am a little concerned that I may looking "too big", as well. However, the fitting(s) I have had have told me that WSD bikes don't work that well for me, because I have a fairly long torso for a woman. My arms are short, like most gals, and my legs are long, but my torso is also long (it's relative, because I'm a little s**t! ). We're all different, aren't we! I was quite surprised when I found I fit on the 53 CM Bianchi, because up until that point, every time I walked into a bike shop I'd be pointed towards the WSD bikes or the 49 to 50 CM men's frames. After riding a 49 CM frame for almost three years, and also riding a 50 CM "standard geometry" frame for a year before that, I have come to know that they were too small. Seat tube length was fine, and standover was okay, but I was scrunched up in the cockpit and needed longer stems than those bikes came with. The L'una was the first bike I had ever ridden that I was really comfortable on, and I also discovered that I could ride faster on it. When I replaced it's saddle last summer, the LBS owner gave me a good fitting and pronounced that it was, for a Bianchi, the right size for me. He also said that I am sort of on the cusp as far as frame sizes go. 52 is about right, 50 is really too small, and 53 is starting to get too big, depending upon the bike. What I've learned to do is to read "effective top tube length", as well as "standover height". Those two dimensions will usually tell me, right away, if the bike I'm looking at is worth looking at further.

    As for the Raleighs, well, I have to admit I was smitten by the 2011 Team when I first saw one. It was a beautiful bike, made very, very well, and I found hard to believe it was a RALEIGH! I tried it out, sat on it, on the showroom floor, and it felt solid, good, but a tad small (it was a 50 cm, in Raleigh speak). I've had my eye open for that frame ever since. It and the Fuji SST!
    Last edited by sarals; 03-08-13 at 03:11 PM.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  12. #37
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Two other dimensions that are very useful are head tube length and seat tube angle. My old F5 and the new FC have the same ST, TT, and HT lengths, but the ST angle on the FC is steeper. This threw my fit way off. I'm still not right on it. Close, but not neutral the way I like it.

  13. #38
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave View Post
    Feel free to tell me to take a hike because you've been up and down this sizing road a bunch of times. I just thought I'd give you another perspective. Maybe you need to get with another fitter for a second opinion because one thing I always say and still stand by is that you (I) can't fit someone to a bike over the internet.
    Cleave, that ain't gonna happen!
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  14. #39
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    This is me (not long after my gallbladder surgery, and still kind of puffy from it) with a 50 cm Raleigh Team. Cool bike!

    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  15. #40
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Two other dimensions that are very useful are head tube length and seat tube angle. My old F5 and the new FC have the same ST, TT, and HT lengths, but the ST angle on the FC is steeper. This threw my fit way off. I'm still not right on it. Close, but not neutral the way I like it.
    I use the TT and SO as a starting point. I understand haw the other dimensions would affect fit, for sure.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  16. #41
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    Time to educate yourself about Reach and Stack - so you can understand how Effective Top Tube and HeadTube length are just the start of understanding what frame will fit you. You will probably have to read this stuff a few times before you get it, but it's worth the effort.

    http://www.slowtwitch.com/Bike_Fit/C...er_One_95.html
    (chapters 2 & 3 linked at bottom of the page)

    http://www.slowtwitch.com/Bike_Fit/C...nial_3432.html
    ...

  17. #42
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    Sara - Before you pull the trigger on this frame - and it is nice - google the dimensions of the frame and compare them to your Bianchi's dimensions. Nominal sizes can be deceiving. My Look 585 Optimum was Look's version of an "endurance" frame. It's a 61cm...and its top tube and head tube are both shorter than those on a 58cm Specialized Roubaix. There's a good chance that other bikes might vary in the other direction as well. It would really and truly suck if you bought it and found it too large.
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  18. #43
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Almost every brand now publishes Reach and Stack, because, besides the handling effects ST and HT angles can have, it all boils down to Reach and Stack. That's because when you ride, the dimensions that matter are those relative to the BB. And the dimensions that most control reach and stack are HT and Effective TT. If the HT is off, you have to do weird things to compensate. Ditto for the TT. ST? Not so much, unless you are trying to get a level TT, and when you are buying a race bike, the slope of the TT is just not relevant. And with a compact frame, chances are that stand over height just isn't an issue. ST is only an issue if it means you can't get the saddle high enough or low enough, and that is likely only going to occur with a seat mast and proprietary post. Otherwise, you just get a long/short post. Stack, Reach, HT, TT, HT angle. Focus on those. When I'm evaluating frames, my eyes flick to the HT... it has to be up in a certain range for me to even look further, as the HT is the primary factor in the Stack. If HT is close, I'll add the geo of the frame to the spreadsheet I maintain of any bike I've really considered. With them in a matrix, it's easy to see the differences, and that's when I'm usually saying "Damn!".

    You are clearly still sorting things out fit wise, Sara, so please don't buy a new bike/frame until you really have it nailed. I'll even say that, if you can't get the Look to work as well as the Bianchi, then you don't yet have it sorted out. Unless the Look HT is so tall you can't physically get the drop you want, then you should be able to match them up, so that the only difference is in the ride/handling. If you can't, then not all the factors are identified.

    Take your time... get it right.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  19. #44
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Great, great stuff - thank you, Valygrl. I understood it right away, it made perfect sense. And it points to the fact that, ten years after the article was written, there is still no "standard" in bike sizing. Lovely.

    Chuck, you're dead on right, I know that. That's wh I'm putting the charts below this on here. Have a look and see what you think:

    2011 Raleigh Prestige/Team:

    Size 50cm XS 53cm SM 55cm SM/MD 57cm MD/LG 59cm LG 62cm XL
    Seat Tube Length ** 500mm 530mm 550mm 570mm 590mm 620mm
    Standover Height 747mm 770mm 787mm 806mm 823mm 845mm
    Top Tube Length * 525mm 540mm 550mm 570mm 580mm 600mm
    Head Tube Length 115mm 135mm 150mm 170mm 185mm 200mm
    Head Angle 73 73 73.5 73.5 73.5 74
    Seat Angle 74 73.5 73 73 73 72.5
    Wheel Base 967mm 973mm 974mm 994mm 1002mm 1017mm
    Chain Stay Length 408mm 408mm 408mm 408mm 408mm 408mm
    Fork Offset 45mm 45mm 45mm 45mm 45mm 45mm
    BB Drop 68mm 68mm 68mm 68mm 68mm 68mm
    Stem Length 90mm 100mm 100mm 110mm 120mm 120mm
    Handlebar Width 400mm 400mm 420mm 420mm 440mm 440mm
    Crank Length 170mm 170mm 172.5mm 172.5mm 175mm 175mm
    Seat Post Length 350mm 350mm 350mm 350mm 350mm 350mm
    * Measured Horizontally

    ** Measured from Center

    2006 Bianchi 928 L'una:

    Size, cm 49 51 53 55 57 59 61 63
    Seat Tube, mm 490 510 530 550 570 590 610 630
    Top Tube-actual, mm 515 525 535 550 560 575 585 595
    Top Tube-virtual, mm 519 525 535 550 560 575 585 595
    Chainstay, mm 404 404 404 404 407 407 410 410 410
    Fork Rake, mm 43 43 43 43 43 43 43 43
    Head Tube Angle, 71.5 72 72 73 73.5 73.5 73.5 73.5
    Seat Tube Angle, 74.5 74.5 74 74 73.5 73 72.5 72.5
    Wheelbase, mm 975 974 978 984 988 998 1006 1015
    Standover Height, in 29 29.6 30 30.6 31 32 32.7 33.4
    Last edited by sarals; 03-08-13 at 04:51 PM.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  20. #45
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Believe me, I'm listening. Eric sent me a PM detailing how to measure my two bikes and then how to note the differences. I still have to do that. This is all about gathering opinions and learning.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  21. #46
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    Sara - There's no head tube length mentioned for the L'una. You'll have to break out the measuring tape. And I agree with AZTR, in that you should be able to get the Look to fit as well, and should hold off until you get the fit down. Of course, I need a new, smaller frameset because I thought I knew what I needed...
    Regards,
    Chuck

    Demain, on roule!

  22. #47
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    AZT, what I am dealing with is torso rotation, which is of course affected by reach and stack, but it is an issue all by itself.

  23. #48
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    My input on the bike thing has been limited to looking at Sara on one bike, making suggestions, and imparting to try to keep contact points and measurements the same across platforms. While I'm magnificent at setting up my own road bikes and pretty good at fitting TT bikes, when it comes to road bikes and other people I'm pretty much a "try this and maybe move this" sort of guy.

    Greg Lemond wrote that he took one look at Sean Kelly and said that his seat was way too low...then he said "but it was Sean Kelly"

  24. #49
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    My input on the bike thing has been limited to looking at Sara on one bike, making suggestions, and imparting to try to keep contact points and measurements the same across platforms. While I'm magnificent at setting up my own road bikes and pretty good at fitting TT bikes, when it comes to road bikes and other people I'm pretty much a "try this and maybe move this" sort of guy.

    Greg Lemond wrote that he took one look at Sean Kelly and said that his seat was way too low...then he said "but it was Sean Kelly"
    Did she listen and obey?
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  25. #50
    Old Road Racer Cleave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    My input on the bike thing has been limited to looking at Sara on one bike, making suggestions, and imparting to try to keep contact points and measurements the same across platforms. While I'm magnificent at setting up my own road bikes and pretty good at fitting TT bikes, when it comes to road bikes and other people I'm pretty much a "try this and maybe move this" sort of guy.

    Greg Lemond wrote that he took one look at Sean Kelly and said that his seat was way too low...then he said "but it was Sean Kelly"
    Greg Lemond always looked great on his bikes and he looked especially good after he turned pro with Renault. Sean Kelly looked like hell on his bikes but either his fit worked with his particular body geometry or he was so good that he overcame his fit problems.
    Thanks.
    Cleave
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