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-   -   How much could this bike be holding me back? (http://www.bikeforums.net/masters-racing-all-disciplines/925508-how-much-could-bike-holding-me-back.html)

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 02:18 PM

Thread closed.
 
Thread closed to commenting.

JerrySTL 12-09-13 02:29 PM

It ain't the bike. An exception might be if you are climbing mountains during your races.

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerrySTL (Post 16315266)
It ain't the bike. An exception might be if you are climbing mountains during your races.

Can you elaborate?
What I'm really concerned with primarily is efficient transmission of power from the cranks to the rear wheel. To date I have not come up with a way of measuring this.
Also I do concern myself with climbing.

AzTallRider 12-09-13 02:45 PM

I guess I'd start with these questions:

1. How much does the bike weigh?
2. Are you above your ideal racing weight, and if so, by how much?
3. How significant are the climbs in the races you expect to do?
4. How many races do you do per year, and what is the mix?

A lot of people race aluminum bikes in crit's, because weight is less of a factor, and they are stiff. When you head up the hill, however, weight trumps most other gear considerations, and going carbon can drop the bike weight significantly. Note that there are decent carbon frames available on eBay, or direct from China, and you can then move your components over.

Number400 12-09-13 02:49 PM

I have seen a lot of worse shape and older/cheaper bikes at the races. My first races were done on a 10 year old, 28lb steel bike with a triple and I was beating people with better bikes. It is lack of experience that holds you back for a season or two. Develop your race craft and then set a goal and pop for a new bike when you have met that goal or are finishing in the top 10. This plan will make you work hard but there is much enjoyment passing guys on new bikes.

I told my Wife that I wanted a new bike when I was able to contest in the sprints at every race. It's really only there that weight, aero, and energy savings starts to mean much.

BTW, you don't need to shell out $2500 for a decent race bike. Cruise the pits and ask around if anyone is selling or knows of a bike for sale. There is often someone selling a sweet used race bike for realistic prices. For example, I spent $1500 on a Scott Addict w/Rival group and a new set of wheels and tires. The wheels were not anything special but there are plenty of guys who never use the wheels their bikes come with. This is more bike than I had ever imagined having. I did get get a trophy my first race on it but that may have been more from that "new bike" excitement than the fact that it was lighter than my old bike.

JerrySTL 12-09-13 02:49 PM

If you do a lot of climbing in your races, a lighter bike might gain you a few seconds. Otherwise that bike is OK for most racing. Of course you could spend a lot of money on one of the new 'aero' bikes and maybe shave off a few seconds on even a flat road race. Or not.

Do you do crits? If so you surely wouldn't want to spend a lot of cash on a new bike only to crash it, would you?

A bicycle is extremely efficient in taking power applied to the cranks and delivering it to the rear wheel. Short of having dragging brakes; loose or worn hub bearings; on a wheel so untrue that it's hitting the frame, over 99% of what you put to the pedals arrives at the rear wheel.

One thing a better bike might do is shift better. If your current bike doesn't shift when you want it to, that could slow you down in a race.

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzTallRider (Post 16315321)
I guess I'd start with these questions:

1. How much does the bike weigh?
2. Are you above your ideal racing weight, and if so, by how much?
3. How significant are the climbs in the races you expect to do?
4. How many races do you do per year, and what is the mix?

Added most of this info above but I'll repeat it anyway:

1. Bike is about 17lbs with the race wheelset on it and otherwise stripped down to the bare minimum.
2. "Ideal" is a relative term. I'm 6'3.75" and low bodyfat % at race weight, but because of high bone density (DEXA scan measured, not guessing) I can get down to maybe 190lbs without intentionally losing muscle mass to get lower, which I'd have to get a pretty compelling argument to even consider. At the age of 18, when I was in no way athletic, but fully grown, I was 185lbs.
3. How do I answer that question? If I find myself off the back because of a climb, it usually means it's all over for me for that race.
4. Crits and road races, and not very many because I really can't afford to race every weekend.

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerrySTL (Post 16315334)
If you do a lot of climbing in your races, a lighter bike might gain you a few seconds. Otherwise that bike is OK for most racing. Of course you could spend a lot of money on one of the new 'aero' bikes and maybe shave off a few seconds on even a flat road race. Or not.

Do you do crits? If so you surely wouldn't want to spend a lot of cash on a new bike only to crash it, would you?

A bicycle is extremely efficient in taking power applied to the cranks and delivering it to the rear wheel. Short of having dragging brakes; loose or worn hub bearings; on a wheel so untrue that it's hitting the frame, over 99% of what you put to the pedals arrives at the rear wheel.

One thing a better bike might do is shift better. If your current bike doesn't shift when you want it to, that could slow you down in a race.

What I'm really concerned with for purposes of this thread is how stiff the rear triangle of this bike is, and how efficiently it transfers power from the cranks to the rear wheel when under high power (like when sprinting). I can't seem to do a decent sprint on this bike, but it's the only road bike I've ever had and therefore have nothing to compare it against. I can generate >1200watts maximum and average >1000watts in a sprint, but I have to kill myself to get my road speed to a mere 30mph. I've been in position at races to make a decent finish only to get passed up like I was standing still when the sprint came.

To reiterate: I'm trying to determine, primarily, whether this bike is soaking up power when I'm trying to sprint, preventing me from reaching >30mph.

sarals 12-09-13 03:37 PM

Have you ever been fit to your bike?

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarals (Post 16315481)
Have you ever been fit to your bike?

Yes, and I get the fit updated whenever I change anything on the bike (saddle, pedals, etc).
..and yes, the person doing it is competent. Used to be my cycling coach back when I actually could afford one.

Racer Ex 12-09-13 04:18 PM

You're too big to go up hill with the skinny guys regardless.

As far as stiffness, if you're hesitating or cornering timidly because the bike is moving around under you, then yeah, it could be holding you back. Otherwise it's not, or a very small amount.

Saying you average 1000w in a sprint is like saying asking how many existentialists it takes to change a light bulb:

a: Blue

1000w for how long? Satrting from what point? End of the race? Practice?

Sprinting isn't just about numbers. It's about CdA, jump, positioning, and to some degree w/kg. And it's more about when the numbers are than what the numbers are.

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16315616)
You're too big to go up hill with the skinny guys regardless.

You'll excuse me if I continue racing regardless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16315616)
1000w for how long? Satrting from what point? End of the race? Practice?

Say, 15 seconds. Your typical sprint.

Also, what's CdA?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16315616)
And it's more about when the numbers are than what the numbers are.

Sure. It's not like I'm having a temper tantrum because I haven't won a race yet, I know it takestime to get good at this. I know I may never win a race, either. Not anywhere near the point of giving up.

LAJ 12-09-13 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanblkthrne (Post 16315225)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=354491
OK, let's be honest about this.

That's the bike I've got, with a few modifications and extras: A 2007 Trek Pilot 2.1. Aluminum frame with carbon forks, seatstays, and seat post.
When I bought it, I had no idea I would end up racing, but I'm poor and can't just run out and spend $2500-5000 for an actual race bike.

I've got Mavic Ksyrium SL's for racing on.
I've got a PowerTap wheel for training on.
I've got a 53-tooth chainring in place of the 50-tooth that came with the bike.

I've been training and racing for 4 years now. I'm still Cat-4. On a good day I can get a top-10 finish.

I know this is probably a highly subjective question to ask, but: How much could this bike be holding me back?


Additional information:
This is a 2007 model.

About me:
I'm 49 in a couple months.
Been racing 4 years.
6'3.75", ~190lbs at race weight (not fat, but tall with high bone density).
I have a low bodyfat percentage, have strong legs (leg pressing 1100lbs on a 45 degree sled for reps), and over 4.0w/kg power at UTT.

Problem that bugs me the most when training/racing:
I can't seem to pull off a decent sprint. I can generate 1200-1300 watts peak and average over 1000 watts, but I've rarely seen my road speed, sprinting on the flat by myself, get over 30mph. Usually I have to kill myself off even getting to 30mph on the flat.

I'm really not looking for training advice in this thread, that's a whole different subject, so please, don't post comments along those lines.
What I'm trying to accomplish in this thread, is determining if the bike itself is just not efficiently transferring power from the cranks to the rear wheel when sprinting. I don't necessarily buy into "carbon fiber is best", especially at those prices.

Likely, not a whole lot.

Racer Ex 12-09-13 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanblkthrne (Post 16315723)
You'll excuse me if I continue racing regardless.

I suppose. My point was that 3 extra pounds of bike wasn't keeping you from becoming Marco Pantani.

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanblkthrne (Post 16315723)
Also, what's CdA?

Aerodynamic drag.

A lot bigger factor in sprinting than a lot of folks realize. One of the reasons Cav is so successful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanblkthrne (Post 16315723)
It's not like I'm having a temper tantrum because I haven't won a race yet

You'll never make it as a pro.




duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 05:12 PM

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Element GT http://www.bikeforums.net/images/but...post-right.png
I did my first metric this year and it was a blast! The biggest surprise was how much I actually ate through the whole thing at the snack tables.


..excuse me?
Is there a point to what you just posted here, or are you just being a jerk?

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16315781)
I suppose. My point was that 3 extra pouds of bike wasn't keeping you from becoming Marco Pantani.
You'll never make it as a pro.

Who said I wanted to be a pro? I'm 48 going on 49 and I'm enjoying what I'm doing, and doing much better at it than I thought I ever would.
I'm just trying to optimize my performance, and if the bike really was holding me back, then I make plans to replace it when possible.

What I don't need is a bunch of negativity. Please keep that to yourself.

AzTallRider 12-09-13 05:23 PM

CdA is a measure of how aero you and your bike are, when riding. If you can generate 1,000w for 15", measured with a PT at the wheel, then power transfer certainly isn't your problem, but you might not be very 'slippery' if you max out at 30mph. Chances are your body is up in the air, which may be enabling you to generate more power, but overall slowing you down. There could be other issues with your technique that isn't transferring that power into speed. If you change your mind about training advice, and want help sorting that out, then speeak up, as there are some people here (no, not me) who have won a lot of races.

As A'Jet said in response to a newbie statement I made long ago about practicing sprints - it's about speed, not power. Fortunately, both can be trained.

AzTallRider 12-09-13 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanblkthrne (Post 16315785)
..excuse me?
Is there a point to what you just posted here, or are you just being a jerk?

His point is that you can't be a pro unless you throw temper tantrums.. but maybe you do qualify.

Racer Ex 12-09-13 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzTallRider (Post 16315832)
His point is that you can't be a pro unless you throw temper tantrums..

It was more a humorous collection of bike related pro temper tantrums than an actual point. A riff on "I'm not throwing temper tantrums because I'm not winning"

And there's a difference between truth and negativity. The former is saying you'll never be a great climber at 190 pounds. The latter would be saying you shouldn't bother improving your climbing.

bikemig 12-09-13 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAJ (Post 16315769)
Likely, not a whole lot.

No. 1. But that's no reason not to get a new bike if you want one.

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzTallRider (Post 16315832)
His point is that you can't be a pro unless you throw temper tantrums.. but maybe you do qualify.

"Don't you think you're being more than a little rude?" -- scratch that.

What's been posted, apparently, amounts to an inside joke that I wasn't privy to. No, I didn't read that thread, sorry.

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16315841)
It was more a humorous collection of bike related pro temper tantrums than an actual point.

And there's a difference betweet truth and negativity. The former is saying you'll never be a great climber at 190 pounds. The latter would be saying shouldn't bother improving your climbing.

Thank you for making the distinction, I appreciate that.

Racer Ex 12-09-13 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanblkthrne (Post 16315852)
Don't you think you're being more than a little rude?

Kettle meet Pot.

You took offense at someone's signature. Those are defaulted little things some people use as taglines on ALL their posts. Mostly comments that people find either amusing or uplifting. They are not directed at anyone or relevant to the particular post.

In this case LAJ found something another member posted amusing. You'll see a few of my more pithy stuff floating around quoted by others. LAJ is a very nice person who took the time to answer your question, albeit briefly.

duncanblkthrne 12-09-13 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16315874)
You took offense at someone's signature

Well, I'll be damned.

Racer Ex 12-09-13 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncanblkthrne (Post 16315881)
Well, I'll be damned.

Not if you repent now.


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