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  1. #26
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    My top speed in my sprints is down about 20% compared to when I was 30. I wasn't as smart back then so I couldn't translate my much better sprint speeds into better results. Other than that I really don't have a good metric. I don't train hard enough to see if I can TT, I don't train in the same area as before so I can't relate general gearing trends etc.

    My best ever 40k TT was a 1:01:30. My second best was about 1:03, on the same course. My best 7 mile TT (local club TT) on basically the same TT bike (disc, 24" front wheel 17mm rim/tire, 100k bars, etc) + skinsuit + TT helmet was a 16:28. The course record was 14:05.

    I could never climb, still can't. I raced at weights ranging from 103 lbs to 210-ish lbs. I've never finished a RR in the group (Juniors or Cat 3s), I've never made it past the RR in a stage race (always eliminated on time, Juniors or Cat 3s).

    w/kg is critical when climbing. It's less important (but still nice to have a good ratio) when dealing with flatter races.

    I sometimes placed as a 3, whatever the year/age - my best was a 2nd in the summer a few times. I could win a training race. I upgraded to Cat 3 in 1986 when I started racing Senior.

    I only ever qualified to upgrade to Cat 2 in 2010. My w/kg was 3.1 w/kg (70 kg / 155 lbs, 220w FTP). I sniped crits to get my upgrade points. Currently I'm 2.85 w/kg range. This year, on 61 total hours of riding so far, I've won 2 (uphill) field sprints in 8 races, got shelled in one.

    I tend to race the 3s, they're (significantly) easier than the M35+. M45 is better but I have teammates who are younger than 45 and typically I prefer to race with them than with zero or one teammate.

    If I had a 250w FTP or a 3.0 w/kg ratio I'd be stronger than I am now. In 2010 I felt untouchable, relatively speaking.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  2. #27
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    I haven't taken the time to go over every reply to this thread. So if I'm repeating something I apologise.

    I'm 58 now, and after competing at a very high level after I retired it was a continual and slow spiral backwards.
    Interestingly though like what's been mentioned wisdom does supersede the decline in power.
    Where I've felt the biggest decline (specially after turning 50 ) was the ability to send the information to where it's required and when required.

    Quick story: in 2006 I'm racing in a track league in Colorado Springs. Just so happens that the National team race there as well.
    I slide thru to the Keirin finals, in the finals there are 3 boys all looking for spots on the Nat-Team. As the race begins to unfold and with two laps to go. I see the winning move. But before my legs could react ( remember my mind has already reacted) two of those fast twenty year olds pass me on both sides.
    So I ended up mostly following wheels to the finish. Only consolation I could take away was knowing that I saw it first and if I was 25 years younger those young buggers were toast,

    So not only do we slowly lose power we lose our reaction time. But knowing that all this health benefits, we are reducing the aging process and extending quality of life.

  3. #28
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolanarc1 View Post
    But knowing that all this health benefits, we are reducing the aging process and extending quality of life.
    Indeed.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  4. #29
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I just found this thread. My story is long and has been repeated many times in this forum so I'll just cut to the chase. I had ridden my bike fast since I was a kid. When everyone had banana seat bikes, I had a five speed drop bar bike. While in college in Boston I started working at a neighborhood bike shop for extra coin. The guy hooked me up with a Koga Miyata frame and a full Ti SR group and I started riding at night after class. The shop regulars were not the brightest bulbs but they rode their bikes at night too, and we would do workouts together on the streets and on the Esplanade. One guy was a Cat2 and suggested that I try racing. I went to the now infamous Wells Ave. where at the time they had an A and B field. I bought my one day license and won. I came back the next week and lapped the field solo. At that point the club that ran the race handed me a skinsuit and bought my license. I upgraded to Cat3 the next year and Cat2 the following year. This was when there were no points, you were deemed ready to upgrade at the jurisdiction of the officials. If you were fast but could not handle your bike you did not upgrade. You had to qualify for Nationals back then, too. During my second season I was recruited to ride for one of the strongest amateur teams in the country that spawned three pros. The team didn't play nice together after a while, so another team handed me a bike and asked me to be the leader. I rode with them for two more years, until the grind of being a newly minted engineer and racing at the highest level without proper training took its toll and I burned out and quit. In 2010 I decided to get back on the bike so I bought a brand new modern machine and started riding. I joined this forum and asked the same question you did, should I return to racing. If you search around here, you'll find it. I decided to return as a Cat3 and earn my way back, which I did in less than a season.

    I race both Masters, all age groups, and Cat2 and above. At 57 I can still top 20 in a P/1/2/3 race. I haven't done a P/1/2 in a while but most of the guys that finish ahead of me are not Cat3's. If you have raced before, not a lot has changed as far as the racing itself goes. If you want to succeed in criteriums you will need to train for criteriums. Same for road races and time trials. I am a criterium specialist. It's pretty much all I do, because I friggin love it.

    Find your niche, train for it, and stick to the plan. Don't let the past guide you.

  5. #30
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 View Post
    That and doing a set of them up a short 10-11% incline has always been the ticket for me. I believe the latest research also points in this direction.

    If there is no week-end racing on a Sunday, I will normally put in 4+ hours with our local club and most of it is zone2 riding.
    Funny. My coach prescribed that exact workout for Nevada City. That, and lose 5 pounds.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  6. #31
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    Most everyone here trains with power using a commercial power meter on the road such as PowerTap or a crank based system and some augment power training with HR. Do you own a power meter for your rode bike and my second question is do you own a Cycleops 420 with a power meter?

    I have done aero testing at Velo Sports Center using ERO Sports software and expertise via speed and a power data collected as I rode the track and have accurately measured and optimized my CdA. I am an engineer also and i built a spreadsheet to calculate power required based upon my measured CdA and lap times around a track. Rho, tire friction and other variables influence the simulation a lot. And I have been validating my simulations over time after collecting power data and lap times at the velodrome after races.

    If you do not get the variables right, the simulation is off and can be off by a lot. Even the indoor track has fast and slow days depending on temperature, humidity and pressure. High temperature, high humidity and low pressure offer the best combination and lowest Rho for a particular altitude.

    I have used gym equipment such as the Cycleops 420 and find the power readouts not accurate. However, if I owned one and could calibrate it and or validate it with a real commercial power meter then, I would believe it. You may have done this.

    In my late 20s and early thirties, I was running 10Ks and riding my bicycle with my buddies. We would go for a run and then hop on our bikes and ride 40 miles. Then we would go to the gym and kill each other working out with weights doing forced reps. I did a couple of time trials and bicycle races. Sometimes instead of running, I would play tennis. One of my friends was a decathlete and we would go to the running track and throw the javelin, discuss and shot-put - not my long suit. However, we did a lot of plyometric explosive things for both the upper and lower body.

    Over time, I have kept going to the gym but the plyometric component of sport got away from me. I stayed in great shape but headed into what I called old guy great shape.

    Fast forward to today at age 65... I started racing bicycles in 2007 and hired a coach. I started track racing in 2008 and in 2011 was 4th of 16 (made the podium) at Masters Track Nationals in the 500 meters and team pursuit. In the 500, I beat a racer my age who competed in the Olympics in cycling. In 2009, I won the state championship in individual pursuit. And I beat a buddy of mine who is a 5 time world track champion in individual pursuit. So I have become a specialist and focus where I have competitive strengths. This year, I am back doing a lot of plyometric movements

    I will say that 10 watts is a lot of power for me. It does not sound like much when talked about with 400 watts but increasing average power 10 watts is a lot. I think that is the difference between then and now. If I had raging hormones again, 10 watts would be nothing.
    Last edited by Hermes; 05-07-14 at 04:10 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  7. #32
    I need speed AzTallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 View Post
    I'm an Engineer, with a high level of math education and too old to change my ways. Those numbers seem to track pretty accurately right now, putting the academics and actual field experience pretty close. Newtonian fundamentals are hard to argue with.

    If you had the oppty to get onto my trainer bike, hooked up to a computer, I should be able to predict your time up a 1/4 mile 10% gradient pretty accurately, same goes for a 25 mile TT circuit provided I profiled it with my Garmin.

    Let's agree to disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    If you do not get the variables right, the simulation is off and can be off by a lot. Even the indoor track has fast and slow days depending on temperature, humidity and pressure. High temperature, high humidity and low pressure offer the best combination and lowest Rho for a particular altitude.
    Then there are the variables affecting your personal performance. What did you eat/drink the week preceding and the night before? That morning? How hydrated are you? How was your sleep? Job stress? relationship stress? Any little muscle strains? Level of confidence? Desire to kill it that day?

    So many factors come into play. Some can be anticipated, some cannot. You have to say "all else being equal", and it never is. Attempts at predicting results only get you into the general ballpark. Oh, and they can also be self-fulfilling. We have so much data at our disposal when we ride that we can let that data control/limit us.
    "If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."

  8. #33
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    At age 46 this is the first season I have actually followed a training plan (starting last November). Power curve is at lifetime highs pretty much across the board, but not by much. More dedicated work than I have done at any point in my life has resulted in 5-10w of gains. 50w improvement from here is just not going to happen.

    This isn't a great insight or anything, but in my experience as I get older, more work is required to simply maintain fitness, and raising the ceiling gets harder and harder. But that's OK. The other side of the coin is that the experience of working hard for marginal gains gives you a very accurate sense of what your physical abilities are, which makes it much easier to race smart and manage your resources properly.

  9. #34
    Idiot Emeritus sarals's Avatar
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    Accelerations. Yeup. You want to shed Sara from the pack, then slow way down for corners and drill it coming off of them. Repeat five or six times. That'll do it.
    Racer Ex..."Don't know if the shop is under new ownership. If not feel free to shoplift stuff and break bottles in his parking lot."

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Most everyone here trains with power using a commercial power meter on the road such as PowerTap or a crank based system and some augment power training with HR. Do you own a power meter for your rode bike and my second question is do you own a Cycleops 420 with a power meter?

    I have done aero testing at Velo Sports Center using ERO Sports software and expertise via speed and a power data collected as I rode the track and have accurately measured and optimized my CdA. I am an engineer also and i built a spreadsheet to calculate power required based upon my measured CdA and lap times around a track. Rho, tire friction and other variables influence the simulation a lot. And I have been validating my simulations over time after collecting power data and lap times at the velodrome after races.

    If you do not get the variables right, the simulation is off and can be off by a lot. Even the indoor track has fast and slow days depending on temperature, humidity and pressure. High temperature, high humidity and low pressure offer the best combination and lowest Rho for a particular altitude.

    I have used gym equipment such as the Cycleops 420 and find the power readouts not accurate. However, if I owned one and could calibrate it and or validate it with a real commercial power meter then, I would believe it. You may have done this.

    In my late 20s and early thirties, I was running 10Ks and riding my bicycle with my buddies. We would go for a run and then hop on our bikes and ride 40 miles. Then we would go to the gym and kill each other working out with weights doing forced reps. I did a couple of time trials and bicycle races. Sometimes instead of running, I would play tennis. One of my friends was a decathlete and we would go to the running track and throw the javelin, discuss and shot-put - not my long suit. However, we did a lot of plyometric explosive things for both the upper and lower body.

    Over time, I have kept going to the gym but the plyometric component of sport got away from me. I stayed in great shape but headed into what I called old guy great shape.

    Fast forward to today at age 65... I started racing bicycles in 2007 and hired a coach. I started track racing in 2008 and in 2011 was 4th of 16 (made the podium) at Masters Track Nationals in the 500 meters and team pursuit. In the 500, I beat a racer my age who competed in the Olympics in cycling. In 2009, I won the state championship in individual pursuit. And I beat a buddy of mine who is a 5 time world track champion in individual pursuit. So I have become a specialist and focus where I have competitive strengths. This year, I am back doing a lot of plyometric movements

    I will say that 10 watts is a lot of power for me. It does not sound like much when talked about with 400 watts but increasing average power 10 watts is a lot. I think that is the difference between then and now. If I had raging hormones again, 10 watts would be nothing.
    Great post!!!

    I was serious and analytical about cycling and my professional performance the way you are about it now and back in the day around 30 years ago. At a different place now, health and fitness is first priority and being competitive again is second priority, yet important as it keeps up the motivation to train hard.

    I agree, 10 watts is a lot, but in my situation I am coming back from several years off the bike, so initially there are great improvements because I am getting some of my form back. I expect the improvements to get smaller and smaller as time goes by and I get my form back.

    The Cycleops 420 uses a Powertap in the rear hub and while I am not too concerned about accuracy, the repeatability is important. The setup matches my road bikes exactly. I train in a conditioned room, so besides my physique, everything else remains exactly the same and it is a great tool for measuring progress. It is also a great tool to program specific workouts at set power interval levels, focusing on ones weaknesses, when the weather outside is not too kind. The Cycleops is really the only time I get serious about measuring power/cadence/Heart rate and doing some analysis.

    I had one of the first Powertaps, which was problematic back in 2000-2001, then switched to SRM, but no longer train with power on road. Training rides I use an Iphone with blue tooth sensors in my back pocket, as I enjoy the rides more without a computer, yet can analyse the data later. For racing I use a Garmin 800, on either of two different bikes. So, on the road for training my metrics are Z1 is easy, Z2 is comfortable, Z3 is hard, Z4 is as hard as I can go for a long time and Z5, or beyond is flat-out for a short period. Heart rate is no longer that important to me, the only real benefit these days is knowing when I have difficulty achieving high heart rate, there is fatigue setting in.

    You are correct, without the variables being right, simulation will be off, but it still gives one an idea of an upper and lower range. For example, at an FTP of 221 watts on my Cycleops, on the road I do intervals up a 300 meter 11% grade. My times use to be between 1'.15" - 1'.28" minutes. Now closer to 250 watts on the Cycleops, my range is between 1'.08" to 0'.57" (I know there is no direct relationship between FTP and hill sprint times, and would have to look at average power over slightly more than a minute sprint, should one want to throw math at this.)

    If I can get back to 300 watts FTP on my Cycleops next year, I may get a lot more analytical, but at this stage I am scared of paralysis by analysis. ;-)

    At this stage I can survice a cat4 crit, but on the track, or the velodromes of my young days I will get slaughtered no doubt. You are way ahead of me.
    Last edited by ColnagoC40; 05-08-14 at 11:59 AM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    I just found this thread. My story is long and has been repeated many times in this forum so I'll just cut to the chase. I had ridden my bike fast since I was a kid. When everyone had banana seat bikes, I had a five speed drop bar bike. While in college in Boston I started working at a neighborhood bike shop for extra coin. The guy hooked me up with a Koga Miyata frame and a full Ti SR group and I started riding at night after class. The shop regulars were not the brightest bulbs but they rode their bikes at night too, and we would do workouts together on the streets and on the Esplanade. One guy was a Cat2 and suggested that I try racing. I went to the now infamous Wells Ave. where at the time they had an A and B field. I bought my one day license and won. I came back the next week and lapped the field solo. At that point the club that ran the race handed me a skinsuit and bought my license. I upgraded to Cat3 the next year and Cat2 the following year. This was when there were no points, you were deemed ready to upgrade at the jurisdiction of the officials. If you were fast but could not handle your bike you did not upgrade. You had to qualify for Nationals back then, too. During my second season I was recruited to ride for one of the strongest amateur teams in the country that spawned three pros. The team didn't play nice together after a while, so another team handed me a bike and asked me to be the leader. I rode with them for two more years, until the grind of being a newly minted engineer and racing at the highest level without proper training took its toll and I burned out and quit. In 2010 I decided to get back on the bike so I bought a brand new modern machine and started riding. I joined this forum and asked the same question you did, should I return to racing. If you search around here, you'll find it. I decided to return as a Cat3 and earn my way back, which I did in less than a season.

    I race both Masters, all age groups, and Cat2 and above. At 57 I can still top 20 in a P/1/2/3 race. I haven't done a P/1/2 in a while but most of the guys that finish ahead of me are not Cat3's. If you have raced before, not a lot has changed as far as the racing itself goes. If you want to succeed in criteriums you will need to train for criteriums. Same for road races and time trials. I am a criterium specialist. It's pretty much all I do, because I friggin love it.

    Find your niche, train for it, and stick to the plan. Don't let the past guide you.
    When did you quit after burning out and how long did it take you to get competitive again after you started in 2010?

    My niche is long road races, use to live and race overseas. Not much of that here in USA category racing, so I may have to start working on my crit skills.

  12. #37
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 View Post
    When did you quit after burning out and how long did it take you to get competitive again after you started in 2010?

    My niche is long road races, use to live and race overseas. Not much of that here in USA category racing, so I may have to start working on my crit skills.
    I quit in 1988. I placed 12th in my first race back, 9 months after buying the bike. I won an NCC criterium later that year.

    Long is relative. There are plenty of road races around here under 65 miles for guys our age. If you want longer you will need to race your category with the youngsters. Prepare to get dropped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    I quit in 1988. I placed 12th in my first race back, 9 months after buying the bike. I won an NCC criterium later that year.

    Long is relative. There are plenty of road races around here under 65 miles for guys our age. If you want longer you will need to race your category with the youngsters. Prepare to get dropped.
    9 Months after starting after 1988, means natural talent in your DNA. I am one of those poor sods who can win races, but I have to train right and hard and I think it is going to take about 3 years to get back. No 65 mile masters races in North Carolina, they are even difficult to find among the cat4 riders.

  14. #39
    So it is LAJ's Avatar
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    I entered a citizens race at the Federal Center in 1990, and was dropped a quarter way into the first lap. Two weekends ago, I honestly think I could have had a top ten in the 55+ race, had I known how to race smarter.

    I'm pretty sure stopping the cigarette treats helped.
    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Not to be argumentative

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    Quote Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
    I entered a citizens race at the Federal Center in 1990, and was dropped a quarter way into the first lap. Two weekends ago, I honestly think I could have had a top ten in the 55+ race, had I known how to race smarter.
    Right now, I think you should be thinking about how to podium in 45/4's. You're strong enough and just need to figure out how to exploit your strength.

  16. #41
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 View Post
    9 Months after starting after 1988, means natural talent in your DNA. I am one of those poor sods who can win races, but I have to train right and hard and I think it is going to take about 3 years to get back. No 65 mile masters races in North Carolina, they are even difficult to find among the cat4 riders.
    If you think any of it comes easy for me, you would be mistaken. I work my ass off. I'm not one of those pure sprinters that sits in all race, either.

  17. #42
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapwithtom View Post
    Right now, I think you should be thinking about how to podium in 45/4's. You're strong enough and just need to figure out how to exploit your strength.
    +1

  18. #43
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    Thank you, rwt. I do know whose wheel I'll be on for the 35+4 this weekend. I hope you don't mind. This course is well suited to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Not to be argumentative

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    If you think any of it comes easy for me, you would be mistaken. I work my ass off. I'm not one of those pure sprinters that sits in all race, either.
    That's why I enjoy reading your reports, shovelhd. You're always doing something.
    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Not to be argumentative

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