revchuck 

Phoebeisis - my understanding is that any use of testosterone is considered doping, including under a doctor's direction. No TUE available.

carpediemracing 

No problem.

I race with the M45s or 3s. M35s I usually have problems, ditto M40s. I prefer to do the 3s if possible but depending on schedule I might do the 45s. In one race, 2 hours from the house, the 3s were at 9 AM or so, the M45s at 11. I've learned that I can still sprint with the M45s (makes sense, I could sprint with them when they were younger than 45) but I'm starting to struggle in Cat 3 field sprints. In the past, even a few years ago, I could hold my own in a sprint. Now I might be "close" in placing (5-7 places back) but I'm 40-50 feet behind the winner, not 5 feet. I've lost a tremendous amount of speed in the last few years, partially due to fitness, partially due to some unknown factor (probably age but I have no objective data to support that). In 2007 I was already 20% down in top speed from the late 80s, early 90s. Now I'm a few more % down. I thought maybe my old speeds were "convenient memory" but over the last couple years I spoke with two guys that I raced with and they brought it up independently. We were using cyclocomputers that measured down to the millimeter, same as now, so speed was pretty accurate. Probably more so because back then I'd adjust for various tires, now I don't bother.

Again, I think that the shape of the curve (power over time) is critical. My power curve, if peak power is to the left, starts high and has a rapid decline once I hit about 60 seconds. By 10 minutes I'm struggling to hold 200-210w avg power. In many races I either get shelled in the first 10 minutes or I'll be okay. There was one race this year where I made it 30 minutes and got shelled because I did a massive-for-me pull to help a teammate. Had I sat in a bit more I realistically would have been okay. In another race I got shelled from a tiny field because I was redlined most of the race, I had to close a couple gaps after a few guys blew, and that was that. I made it about 30 minutes before the gaps etc, but only a lap after the gaps.

Anyway because my curve gives me some room to play in the sprint I can hide/negate the lower FTP aspect. In flatter crits, in windy crits with big fields, it's really hard to get rid of me. I know the formula to shell me - just go all out for 15-30 minutes, single file, 28-30 mph on the straights (adjusted for wind/grade, so really 22-40 mph on the flat straights), and don't give me 20-30 seconds to recover. Little/no shelter, 250-300w to stay on wheels, other riders getting gapped, I'm guaranteed to be gone. However it requires an incredible commitment for riders to do this, at least in the 3s, without a break going. In the M45s it's much more tactical so there are breaks all the time. In the 3s everyone chases, usually the fields are larger, so I can fake it. In a P123 race the riders can do exactly what I described as part of their normal race so I tend not to make the end of those races. In a few P123 races, even when I made it to the end, I can run into problems. I remember a team doing a committed leadout for about 1.5 laps at Bethel and I had a hard time moving up 5 spots, forget about the 30 that I expected to make up. The front 7 or 8 riders actually rode away from the rest of the field in the sprint, it was a great job on that team's part.

If my power curve was flatter it'd be different. If I couldn't sprint as well but I had more FTP to work with I'd be looking for those splits after 15-30 minutes of single file racing. I'd want to be infiltrating those 3-5 rider breaks, see if I can reduce the odds in terms of sprinting. Sprinting against 2-4 other riders is much better than contesting a field sprint with 60 or 80 riders.

I'd also look for smaller field races because as the field gets smaller the minimum FTP starts to go up. In a large field - 80-125 riders - it's pretty easy to sit in. There's data out there showing that a single rider on a short track can actually draft himself due to the aftereffects of riding past a certain point. In a large field the amount of wind that follows a field is tremendous, less so for a small field. In the larger 2011 Tour of Somerville Cat 2 field I averaged 175w to do 27.5 mph. My avg wattage went up only because for the last half lap I had to TT on my own after getting caught behind the first of three crashes on that lap.

Incidentally 240w avg for 60 miles is phenomenal, at least to me. First of all it's simply not possible, I've never averaged 240w for anything long while I've had a power meter. To do it for 3 or whatever hours is crazy. My average on such a ride would be, on a great day, maybe 170w, and I'd have to do it on my own or in a 2-4 rider group to avoid power spikes.

MDcatV

i thought this thread was about amateur masters doping not pros doping.

i race masters and i race elite both on a local/regional level, usada has been at 2 of the events i raced this year and i was tested at one. no failure for me, and i've not heard of any others.

in my opinion, PED use for the express purpose of enhancing performance is rare in the amateur ranks.

stuff that has a declaration use, like asthma and allergy meds, are prevalent in this area, but then again in the mid atlantic usa allergies and asthma are a very prevalent problem in the general population.

anyway, maybe i'm naive on these matters because i dont really care that much about it as an issue, but as i said previously, i think PED use is pretty rare.

phoebeisis

Chuck
Thanks.
I wondered about that-can they use PEDS- if they have a legal prescription.
And the answer is NO??
Which makes sense-since testosterone most certainly IS HUGE advantage
And the DX of LOW T- is a made up diagnosis for affluent middle aged men who want to "reverse aging" (completely understandably) want more muscles less fat better appearance perhaps more sex drive.
It is NOT a disease-normal part of life-like dying-that many men want to delay-understandable-maybe maybe a little risky(but maybe not)

ADULT ADHD- another absolute BS DX (always affluent usually accomplished adults are DX as ADHD)- also can means prescription of a PED-AMPHETAMINES- which can be a PED in bicycle racing-but not as effective as Erythropoetin(SIC) and anabolics (testosterone and GH)

Thanks Chuck
PS Phoebe and Isis were our first two recycled greyhounds(the worlds BEST pet dog-great apartment dogs -low energy small space dogs who need almost ZERO exercise-arrive house trained-no odor-rarely bite humans-rarely bark-ZERO genetic diseases-and "better looking" than the neighbors dog)
I'm Charlie-but phoebeisis is my handle-easy to remember
Adopt a GREYHOUND- they aren't gigantic Jack Russells-couch potatoes despite their athletic appearance(great city apartment dogs--you neighbor with some expensive pure bred whatever that cost $1000 will be jealous(
Greyhounds are about $200 from rescue organizations-shots and neutering
PPS-only downside is they NEED to stay on a leash except at fenced yards dog fenced dog parks-stupid to let any dog but the best trained run loose-but greyhounds really need to be leashed(
PPPS -Sorry ABOUT the Greyhound "Advertisement"-

Creakyknees

I tend to agree with this assessment.

I went for my annual physical a few weeks back. My doc is a well known local rider (not racer) with one of the big touring / rec cycling clubs. He leads rides every week, knows almost everybody in the local non-racing and much of the racing scene.

So we're in the exam room, he asks me straight up if I want him to write an Rx for T or anything else. Uhhh... no... you know I race, you just told me I'm in great health, why would I do that? He says. "well, lots of guys you know are doing it" and just looks at me.

I have no reason to believe he was BS ing me. I did not ask for names.

But as others have noted, I still get decent results, clean. Ok not exactly clean, I eat way too much junk. But no drugs. I don't even like to take aspirin. And I know that I have a ton of room available for improvement if I would only train / eat with a bit more discipline.

So, if that many guys _are_ doping, and I have it on decent source that they are, then why am I still getting decent results? I can only speculate - (1) I actually have a bit of real talent, and those other guys don't, (2) they are not smart racers like me and no amount of fitness can overcome bad tactics, and (3) I suspect that guys who dope are a lot more selective about which races they race, for fear of getting popped.

ColnagoC40

Where is your doc, have to go see him?? Just jokin.

Anyone?

What would a normal total testosterone level be, looking at min, average and maximum, in ng/dL ?

At what levels would it be considered low enough to warrant treatment?

Ps. Talking about men

chasm54

4. They are using T supplementation to compensate for their lack of commitment, and it won't.

My understanding is that testosterone supplementation works principally because it allows one to tolerate and benefit from higher training loads. Training less than you do and taking testosterone isn't going to make them beat you. Taking testosterone in order to train harder than you, that's what would make them beat you.

MDcatV

It really surprises me that a Dr. would offer a rx for something out of the blue without a discussion of symptoms or test results, and even moreso that a Dr. would offer a statement of "lots of guys you know are doing it."

carpediemracing 

I was at a get together that had a number of racers at it. One guy, who I honestly don't really know (he's a regular racer but it was the first time I'd seen him "on purpose" outside of a bike race) asked me about EPO. It ends up he bought a lot of it but has never used it. Or that's what he told me anyway. He's a Cat 3. I have no idea why he asked me all those questions. I hadn't seen, nor have I seen, any kind of substantial change in his performance, not any more than what appears on the surface (meaning if he gained a lot of weight he got worse, if he lost a lot of weight he got better, but he didn't go from being pack fill to lapping the field in every race).

While working registration at a race this year I was asked, pretty aggressively, if there'd be testing at a RR. It was the New England and CT championships and USADA had appeared the prior year I think. I don't know for sure if they did (I didn't see anything because registration was in a different location) but that's what someone told me. I don't know the rider at all but he was registering for either the 50+ or 60+. I have no idea if he actually raced.

I don't think a lot of people dope, like "I'm trying to dope" doping, not taking stuff that claims to boost EPO levels naturally or whatever. However I think there is a significant but small number of people that do dope.

Honestly, if I looked at my own riding in 2010, I'd think I was doping. I was so much better than literally the 12-14 years prior. I was skinnier by a ton, I could finish some tough races, and I could play while I raced. So it's tough to say, "okay, someone's doping" just by looking at their racing. You'd have to look at historical stuff, etc. So my 2010 year was phenomenal and I was 155 lbs (vs 190 lbs at the start of 2009) but only had a 220w FTP, give or take. If my FTP was suddenly 300w then that would ring a lot of alarm bells. If I was a lot skinnier, like 130 lbs - 155 was about 13% body fat - then that could mean something. But 155 lbs was as light as I could get at the time, and I couldn't lose weight during racing season. I still had a paunch, still didn't quite fit a medium jersey, but hell, I was a lot better than I was at 185-210 lbs.

Hermes

I competed at Masters Track Nationals and attended Masters Road Nationals where my wife competed. USADA was there and tested racers. They tested the winner of my 65-69 individual pursuit and they tested the winner of my wife's 60-64 group. According to USADA, they were testing winners. They may have tested others.

If we want to believe Tyler Hamilton in his book he claims that it is very easy to dope and avoid detection at races. One just has to know the duration of time that a drug is detectable. I have zero experience with this.

My family doc is a cyclist and starts all of my physicals with the question, "are there any drugs or inhalers that you are using that I should be aware of?" My answer is no. According to him, he sees a lot of doping and it is not limited to masters.

What do I think? I think a few cases stand out in docs' minds. I have no idea how prevalent it is in masters or elites and all I know is that I do not do it.

Check medications at Global DRO.

And there has not been one TUE issued for testosterone use. However, a testosterone TUE is possible if there is a disease or accident that reduces natural testosterone production such as losing a testicle as Lance did but not due to aging.

I am with Racer Ex on this. It is shruggable. Let the other guys cheat, dope, hang on cars going up hill or whatever. It is their life and they live with the consequences of their actions.

I am more upset with USAC making me race into the wind during my 500 while other competitors had the wind at their back.

Cleave

Hi, doesn't surprise me at all. It seems like every year since they started testing at Masters Road and Track Nationals, they've caught someone doping. Racer Ex's comment about if it's not illegal it's not doping rings true to me based on what I've seen since the late 1970s and early 1980s with people taking inordinate amounts of caffeine pills and aspirin before races. I haven't personally seen people take "harder" stuff but the mindset that follows through on take-these-pills-and-you'll-be-faster probably doesn't differentiate too much between aspirin and anabolic steroids.

Full disclosure: I use a number of Hammer Nutrition products and one of the things I ingest before a race is Race Caps. Can't say that they do anything but a friend convinced me to use them along with Endurolytes (I cramp regularly), Heed, Perpetuum, and Recoverite. Everything except Race Caps is either race nutrition or electrolyte replacement. The scary(?) thing is that Rich Meeker said his positive was due to contaminated Hammer products; pretty much the same ones that I use.

The percent or absolute number of dopers in the Masters peloton in SoCal is something that I don't really care about. A number of SoCal Masters have been caught and penalized. If it's that important for them to win that they feel the need to dope then fine. It's your life and your values, not mine. Of course, if you get caught, then "man-up" and take the penalties without whining. Some people have done that and I'm fine with that attitude too. It's the, "Oh it must have been those Spanish steaks that caused a positive," that makes me want to slap them.

Cleave

BTW, I think I've typed this before but I will type it again. I have personal values that stop me from doping, smoking (anything), or taking any kind of recreational drugs. However, kind of along the lines of CDR (without the awesome sprint speed), I figure that if I doped I'd still be slow -- so why bother?

ColnagoC40

I'm surprised that Thyroid meds are not on the banned list. For Masters getting thyroid values down to around 0.2 mIU/L gives a significant advantage in increased metabolism (recovery) and energy regulation.

30 years ago my metabolism allowed me to eat 5,000 calories and recover over-night. Nothing close to that today.

Here is an interesting link: Is thyroid replacement a performance-enhancing drug? « Science-Based Medicine

But, as with steroids, the body adapts and it may become a life long commitment.

For me, it is just about health, no chemicals. A double caffeine shot in the last 1/2 hour of a road race is as far as I will go.

Anyone else wants to dope, have at it as it can only make the competition tougher and improve my own riding.

OldsCOOL

I'm on synthroid for crazy low thyroid. I began treatment last March when the numbers were running 54+. You can imagine the fun I've had this season. I asked my doc about synthroid being a PED and he said he didnt know but was interested in my findings. And to think I've been riding hard the past 5 seasons with this prob. The levels are almost normal and should be dialed in by next spring.

Hermes

From Global DRO.

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[TD]Overall Status[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
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[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Brand[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Route of Administration[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]In-Competition[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Out-of-Competition[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Synthroid 100mcg Tablet[/TD]
[TD]Route Independent *[/TD]
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OldsCOOL

I can readily label synthroid as a PED only in my experience in that my thyroid took a shot from the booster cables and now I feel normal again. If you need it, the difference is at first "jolting" but to one with normal thyroid output I cant say what help it would bring.

ColnagoC40

"Normal" is a wide range, from 0.2 to 6.0. So for someone who is around 3.0, using meds to get it down to 0.2 will make a big difference in metabolism, burning calories and recovering faster.

Dolanarc1

+1 , Exactly how I would have said it, nice work and best of health my friend,

gsteinb

There are some pretty loud rumors about a rider I know who has sat out the past couple of seasons, and is intending to start racing again. Speculation is that he was on the Papp list. Kinda fun to watch the mental investment in stories like that both internally and in the collective psyche.

smontrose

look at the prevalence of marital infidelity, casual drug use, solving problems with a pill. Combine that with a mid life crisis and top it off with type-A personality. I'm convinced there are a ton of Masters doping.

I've been in endurance sport for 35 years. As an athlete I've almost always ended up elite on a regional level. Even at masters level , until last few years I've been able to "rise". As a coach, I've been invloved with a ton of athletes. I know whats normal.

In recent years, I have seen more than a few masters cyclists, new to endurance sport progress at a normal rate for a few years, then all of a sudden totally ramp it up.I have seen several teammates pretty much be the same year in and out, all of a sudden gain a lot of power. Skinny guys pulling on the flats and in headwinds, Heavy guys getting a lot better climbing. Guys in their 40's riding 3 to 4 days per week, hard. Very rarely having a bad day.Training partners where we used to beat up on each other in training and racing, all of a sudden dropping me.I've recently learned a lot of these guys have no idea how to train!!!

Really???

I've been tracking my power for 4 years, pretty much always within a small range.I have always been able to handle heavy training loads and outwork my peers. With my physical skill and knowledge, how come my watts havent shot up 10 percent in the last few years???

How else would you explain it? This is a serious hobby. Don't tell me these guys weren't trying as hard a few years back.

And someone saying that some guys can train more than 15 hours a week... How do you get meaningful training hours 15+ in your forties??? withoout pEDS??? I dont buy it. I've had to lower my overall hours to maintain quality and every year is a new puzzle to figure out when you're aging...

At this point in life, my biggest goal is quality of life. Thank god I have power meter to show me Im not going crazy. Think about it. Without power measurement, you use your training partners and groups to gauge your fitness- a measuring stick. For these guys to be lying is more damaging in this respect to me than race results!

Recently emailed my state racing association to ask their opinion and consideration to USAC grassroots testing funding. Guess what? No response.


Here is the ****ty part.

Because my successes were real (Cat-1 & state championships) before everything was on internet, and typically as a master I race younger age group after I win anything in my own, todays cycling community equates guys like me as not as knowledgeable as the doped coaches padding their masters resume.
I have 30 years of racing, coaching experience with proper masters level education. I try to give back and provide guidance for free. I actively try to reach out to juniors and women. But, seems people would rather pay for 'coaching" from the local successful masters guy... Interesting.

Racer Ex 

East Coast a few years ago a coach/racer got popped for a bunch of stuff. I would not have wanted to be one of his clients and get tarred with that brush.

ColnagoC40

If my guess is right, he still has a way to go before his two year suspension is up. In the mean time he still kicks a$$ in all our group training rides.

Racer Ex 

I think Cannell's suspension suspension was over in 2012. Le Duc has some time left. Those are the two guys that come to mind in NC. I was referencing Cannell.

I have no idea if he was passing on secret sauce recipes to his clients. Hope not.

Part of my (shrug) reaction is that I've known or raced against quite a few of these guys at this point. Big list actually. I'm with Cleave about the lame excuses.

ColnagoC40

Yeah, I was talking about Dave, not sure how well you know him, he is quite a character. We have a group, about 30 riders all ages doing 60-80 miles on Saturdays, when there are no races. They average 40km/h and if you can't handle the pace they don't mind you sitting in the back. If you get dropped you are on your own. Dave is often there. He is still pretty strong. No one seems to hold what happened against him though, it is almost forgotten.

It is what it is unfortunately, with Masters timing things right and the amount of testing that takes place, only the stupid ones get caught.

Racer Ex 

Raced against him a few times. Had a 20 minute duel in the Tour of Arkansas on a climb with him, beating each other's brains in. He got me in the sprint at the finish. It was fun, in a sick sort of way. We always talked at the races after that.

He had been at the head of the rumor list for a long time, no one was surprised. That's part of my shrug reaction. Decent guy on and off the bike at least to me, and had, like a number of the other guys who doped, enough talent to win clean. Wouldn't have been as often or as much, especially against the kids.

Kinda have to accept that's going to happen eventually dope or no dope.