SnowJob

IMBA released a study last week that :

So far, IMBA says they need more evidence that these types of eMTBs do not cause excessive wear and tear before they decide on whether to allow them on trails.

What do you guys think? Again, this study is tied just to the low-powered pedal-assisted electric MTBs. Might this open the door for higher powered eMTBs in the future if it is shown they do not cause any more damage than pedal-assisted varieties?

Personally I don't feel like we need pedal assisted bikes on MTB trails. I think mountain biking should be all about sweat and muscles. I guess I have a very black and white view of this!

Link to https://www.imba.com/news/eMTB-early-study-results

FrozenK

Is not just erosion (or soil displacement as IMBA is calling it) is also about interaction between users.

Mopeds are not the same as bicycles. While there may be trails where mopeds can be allowed, they should not be put under the same category as bicycles. And yes, I am refering to e-bikes as mopeds because that's what they are.

Bikernator

Interesting. I didn't even know it was being studied.

I've never seen one, or really watched a video of someone bombing on trails with one, but if they're not messing up the trails excessively, then I kind of think of it as putting a pro mountain biker's legs/conditioning on a regular person. So I don't really see a huge issue. IF they're not messing up trails...

I <3 Robots

I got no issues with the pedal assist bikes on the trail. What I may have an issue with is the possibility of bringing the masses that typically don't ride up onto the trails. That could cause lots of congestion.

roccobike

I'm dead set against these bikes having access to trails that currently do not allow motorized bikes. I'm basing this on my experience with them on the road. I'm not impressed when someone who is totally out of shape, unable to ride with a "D" level pace line uses power assist to ride with faster groups. They're not used to riding at the higher speed and pose a serious problem. IMHO, if we're going to allow electronic assisted bikes on trails, why not gasoline powered bikes? I fully expect that challenge to come if the electric bikes are allowed. Also, at least one of the riders I know that uses electric assist modified it to go even faster than designed. We might as well start riding MoPeds if this is where we're headed.

osco53

Without proper skills these out of shape riders with get hurt and destroy those very expensive bikes.
The skilled riders who choose them should not be a problem unless they are Azzhats,,,

If one ever runs into/over me I hope he can fight because if he damages my bike a good fight will be the only way I can finish my workout

Besides the state park and the preserve where I ride do not allow any powered vehicles and that will not change.
At Croom where true motorcycles are allowed I assume they can ride there,,let them get run over by a YZ250 doing fifty ~
I am also pretty sure that my favorite single tracks will destroy these bikes in short order even with skilled pilots..

I think It will be very Entertaining when an E-bike weighing 50 plus pounds reaches the back of my favorite riding park,
where all the good trails are,, and the battery dumps.....

When I see this E-bike rider' pushing/pedaling the heavy beast 6 or 7 miles down dirt roads to the trail head I won't laugh at him,,well maybe a little

I will one day most likely reach the age and condition as WE ALL will where I/we cannot ride single tracks and at that point I will look into an E-bike..

I truly believe that pedal assisted bike of all kinds are coming and are a good thing because they will get more people out side, off the couch and healthier.

So many of us are so fat,, the health care system needs us to get out more right !

DorkDisk

Motor + Bike = Motorbike

Let them ride where mopeds and motorbikes are allowed to ride

cruiserhead

so much ignorance thrown around.

People confuse trail conduct and rules with the type of bike being used.
ebikes create the ability for riders to go out longer distances with ease, they allow recreational mtb riders easier access on long grades.Ebikes make riding safer, not more dangerous.

This isn't about "cheating". Whatever that means.
The same b.s. arguments are thrown around by the Sierra Club all the time to shut down mtb trails.
MTB riders are so ignorant and love infighting that nothing ever gets done, and trails get shut down all the time because of it.
Ebikes, bikes. Look at the big picture because a 200w emtb is going to do less trail damage and be safer than a traditional mtb for a lot of riders.
Does that mean I'm advocating everyone get one? No. I don't care who rides an e-bike, as long as they ride a bike!
Last I checked, people enjoying the trails and views could care jack-off about some dbag rider with a chip on their shoulder about ebikes wanting to spoil everyone's day. Someone riding an ebike does nothing to diminish other bikers enjoyment, or anyone else on the trail!
I've ridden ebikes on the trails and 99% of the time, no one even notices.

Bikes on the trail are nothing but positive for people and we have to constantly fight to keep the land access we have.

I'm open minded about it and personally see a lot of advantages to ebikes on the trail.
I don't webride e-bikes. In the real world, they are just fine. They don't do any more damage than any other bike and often will do less.

I race mtb and of all the types of riding that can errode a trail, DH is probably has the most trail impact.
Ebikes don't even factor into it. Even on an unrealistic, mass scale, ebikes would do nothing to the trails that aren't already being done by bikes, hikers, dogs, horses and vehicles.

unterhausen

I suspect that ebikes will result in more trail closures

hig4s

First to the OP, how old are you? And does that mean you think they should turn off the chair lifts at mountain bike resorts?

Mopeds and pedal assist are not the same. Some Mopeds now don't even actually even have pedals anymore and they are allowed a top speed of 30 mph and are still classified as moped. Pedal assist or E-bike is limited to 20 mph and must have pedals. In most places anything that goes over 20 mph requires some form of license over 30 a different licence and neither can be used in bike lanes or MUPs.

osco53

Very good post, all of it...

I guess my only real concern comes from what I often see on the trail. Riders who think It's race day every day and charge hard down the trails.
This is fine till they encounter a slower less skilled rider and really press into that rider scaring them off the trail with often unsafe passing, or doing mach 3 on two way trails...

People, most all of us like to go fast and spend big dollars on mods that make our bikes a second faster or a few ounces lighter is a passion.
So,
Here comes John Q rider with his ,,,, 'pedal assist' bike if this is the politically correct term,, he uses that assist to go farther,,yeah right.
He will also use it to go Faster,
Then he finds out adding cells to the battery pack can add run time or If wired the other way Increase voltage/speed,
Then Comes the hop up motor,
Then his pedal assist bike will do 30 mph,,,

"wait a sec ! If I get this motor or re-wind it this way I can do 35 mph" ,,then comes 40... The Need For Speed'

It will happen and if anyone thinks It will not happen,, I mean really ?

hig4s

What do you mean it will happen. It is already happening, there are dozens of websites with tips on how to use hopped up pedal assist bikes with out getting ticketed. So we should ban all pedal assist bikes? Some people have illegally modified cars, should we ban all cars?

DBrown9383

It's like some sailboat guys hate powerboats. "stink pots". Then they fire up their diesel engine to motor out of the marina and half way across the lake because the wind isn't blowing that day.

cruiserhead

Like good DH riders will blast down at least 4x the speed of any decent rider?
Like any xc racer will blow by any decent rider at 4x the speed up any climb?

As I said, people confuse conduct and type of bicycle all the time.
If you want to legislate conduct, do that. That is the argument everyone presents in "anti-ebike" diatribes.
It has nothing to do with ebikes.

You can buy a Ferrari 456, a Ducati 996, a 1/2 ton diesel pickup, a Honda Accord.
All use the same roads and follow the same laws.

That has nothing to do with conduct.

DMC707

I dont think the e-bikes will simply take over the trail like 29'ers did a few years ago ----- the good ones are pretty cost prohibitive. I know there are quite a few of us who run around on 8k Yeti's , Specialized's, Santa Cruz's and the like, but we're the "elitist minority"

Even if i could afford an e bike -- i wont - unless

I like what one of the posters said when he mentioned getting people out for some vigorous exercise without it being a Bataan death march at the first good hill

---- I am typing this from Angel Fire NM where i am farting around with my newly aquired DH bike and i can say - in extreme examples like this ---- an e-bike is not gonna help ---- i dont know at what point an e-bike becomes a motorcycle -- but i can say with certainty, a bicycle based chassis is still pretty limited taking on rocky nasty chunder
---And as far as a XC race goes - seems like they go about as fast as Ned Overend did in 1993 --- Nobody has (yet) accused Ned or Juli Furtado of destroying the environment yet

-----
I think all is well if the e-bikes still retain a bicycle configuration -- the minute they start weighing 120 pounds and have 46mm forks -- then its a motorcycle

------- I see a real benefit for a commuter though --- although im a Clyde, im not lazy --- BUT- it sure would be nice to take a gentle ride to an appointment and not show up with the pits sweated out , monkey butt, and screwed up hair on a 2 or 3 mile jaunt into town --- maybe a grocery trip or something like that

SnowJob

I don't get what my age has to do with this issue. And how do chairlifts relate to eMTBs? I'm a bit lost.

Also, the original post made it clear that IMBA's report is limited to Type 1 pedal assist mountain bikes. At 20mph, the assist cuts out. Not that I'd want to see some newb on a eMTB riding a berm at 20mph...though I bet it would be an exciting (and very short) ride for them.

There have been issues with people bringing low powered gas minibikes onto mountain bike trails where I live. They're pretty annoying. My worry is that if low-powered assist eMTBs are allowed, who's to say that low powered gas or electric throttle assist wouldn't be next.

Also, unless a person is disabled, I just don't understand why you would want to use a pedal assist bike... pretty much anywhere. Why, especially, would you want to bring one onto a mountain bike trail?

agressor

No eBikes on trails, period!

cruiserhead

Agree and the vast majority of ebike riders - as of now, are casual riders or ones that see value in them as transportation, not recreation.

That's the value to experienced riders and casual riders that aren't interested in V02 max.
Ones that want to enjoy the views and outlooks, and not be a ball of sweat and dirt. In fact, that is the vast majority of people- which is why mtb is not bigger than it is. That may be a good or bad thing, depending on your perspective.
For me, anything that enables people to enjoy mtb is a good thing.

There are DH bikes now that have dual crown forks, moto tires and are basically motorcycles.
I agree, in DH there is no purpose for ebikes, and it's probably to most extreme- and has the most impact on the trails, yet the sport and activity are doing fine.
In fact, the HUGE rise of Enduro shows that the popularity of technical downhills is just getting bigger.
Also, in enduro, ebikes don't really have any benefit.
exactly. the vast majority see ebikes as transportation, not recreation. In that respect, ebikes have the potential to bring a lot more people into cycling, and become a genuine form of alternative transportation.

FrozenK

But DH rigs and people blasting down a trail on DH rigs are a problem on trails in the real world. Which is why a lot of DH riding happens on private land with restricted access (lift tickets) and if you think a cross country racer will blow past a regular rider 4 timrs as fast on a climb, your idea of a regular rider is wrong.

E-bikes are mopeds, dress it up as you want, get offended as much as you want. But that is what they are. While they may belong in some trails, they are not the same as a mountainbike. The weight is a huge difference. And having a person blasting at 20mph up a climb where everybody else is doing 10mph will cause trouble.

As for the argument of "at least people are out riding" well, why can't they ride a bike? The only difference is how fast you'll go, right? Sorry, this isn't about providing access to the disabled or getting more people riding. This is about old rich guys that don't want to accept they are old.

I think that ebike are a good thing for commuters. For that application they make a lot of sense. They will face some issues for that too, when it comes to riding them on MUP but I can see the benefit of incorporating them. On mountainbike trails? Sorry, they are the tool of those who don't want to put in the effort. And nothing wrong with that, some people ride motorcycles and ATVS and that is fine with me. I'm sure there are trail systems where some ebike can be allowed. But blanket inclusion with mountainbikes? Nope.

cruiserhead

First of all, who is offended? I think some people are but not people just enjoying riding bikes of any kind.
Weight difference from what? What does that have to do with anything? A typical mtb can weigh 35-40lbs easy. You can point to higher priced/lower volume bikes for lighter weight but so what?

I know a lot of people that already "blast" up climbs at more than twice the difference. Happens every time i'm on the trail and it doesn't matter.
When passing slower riders, communication is what will make this safe.
Again, rider conduct confused with the type of bike. This frankly ignorant argument gets repeated all the time, yet has absolutely no basis in fact or logic.

they are riding a bike
no, it's not. Explained already.

That same argument keeps the high end bicycle market afloat, and going strong. What is the point of this argument?



So they make sense in a densely packed area with magnitudes more traffic, cyclists, obstacles but on a quiet, mildly traveled trail with very little traffic it doesn't make sense. OK...

Then why are serious mtbikers riding lightweight bikes? They lazy and don't want to put in the effort? By this logic, the more advanced you get, the heavier your bike should be.

again, false logic. People do not ride atv's and motocycles because they are lazy or it's less effort than a bike.

There is no reason for it not to be "included".
If you look at the big picture, this shaving of the apple skin is only doing one thing: Turning ignorant mtbikers into anti-mtbike advocates.
ebike exclusion is anti bike advocacy, without any sound logic behind it. I have yet to hear any argument that makes factual sense or is based in any real logic.

Emotional arguments simply allow the cycling groups to be played. It's really disappointing.

FrozenK

First of all, you could try to be less insulting to people. That would actually help your argument. Ebikes are motorized bicycles, which happens to be the definition of a moped. Ebikes are mopeds. But a moped doesn't sound as cool as an ebike, right?

Weight matters. You won't be bunny hoping a 50lb bike, so you will be plowing through things. A heavier bike will also be harder to handle. So you are putting people who are out of shape or inexperienced with a bike that's hard to handle. Not the best idea. You will also need to upgrade the brakes, which makes it easier to lock them up and skid. And most bikes these days are in the 30lb range. At least the ones that get ridden.


Lightweight bikes? They are a lot of fun, if you haven't you should try one. Do they take less effort to ride? Why yes! But they also handle better, which is the part you are forgetting about. They also won't double your speed up a hill. Will they? Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about ebikes.

So what is the purpose of ebikes? Riding faster with less effort? Getting people riding who otherwise wouldn't because it takes too much effort? You claim that more people on trails is good, but that is not always the case. There are trails that cannot sustain increased traffic. That is a real problem. There is the fact that bringing a lot of people with little knowledge of trail etiquette and skills will increase damage to the trail and user conflict. It is easy to buy into the industry claims that ebike will cause no more damage than a regular bike... if ridden properly. But what will happen in the real world? Increased conflict and damage.

Electric mopeds will work on some trails. But they are not the same as bicycles. Call me ignorant and whatever other insult you want to, it won't change the facts.

cruiserhead

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm quoting to address your specific arguments.
I'm not calling it an ebike to be 'cool'- that's the definition of it, that's what we are talking about. If you want to call it a moped, please do. Seems easier to say ebike rather than "moped, you know what I mean".

That is true, in that weight affects performance.
But, it simply does not matter nor does it affect ebikes because people are not using them as racing machines. MTB ebikes are typically in the 40lb range.
To say a bike is hard to handle or unsafe because it's carrying 10-15 extra pounds doesn't make sense either. It's simply a non-factor.

Brakes locking up easier is a matter of traction available to the power applied. Any disc brake is plenty for any mtb in the matter of safety.
One can argue a heavier bike is safer and has more traction.
My 180lb friend who is carrying a good 30lbs on me can attest that his bike is not negatively affected or is unsafe.


I race XC and starting to do enduros so I have plenty of bikes. A lot of road racing too.
They do handle better and make competive riding more fun.

So what if an ebike doubles your speed uphill?

If you really believe that, join the Sierra Club and get off the trails. Sell your mtbikes and make the world a better place.

Do you really believe this is the typical mt ebike rider?

I'm not in the industry. I am a regular guy that rides the trails. In the real world, they have the exact same impact as a regular bike.

"if ridden properly"... doesn't that go with every bike?
In the real world, all the ebike riders i've seen are safer than many mtbikers. Again, conduct, not equipment.

Never have seen or experienced that. Where I have seen it plenty of times is ignorant trail conduct.

Bicycles of all kinds work on the trails because they are used on the trails all the time.

I don't think you are ignorant. Your arguments are emotion based, and these are common and repeated. These are not based in fact, and are ignorant- and ultimately harmful to mtbiking.
I'm not calling you ignorant to sling mud, i'm saying the arguments don't make sense.

FrozenK

When you call people "ignorant" and irrational (and claiming my arguments are emotion based is claiming I'm irrational) you are being insulting. It doesn't help your argument. You are flinging ad hominem attacks rather than counter arguments.

Yes, the average ebike rider will be either out of shape or inexperienced, most likely both. Why? Because that is the demographic to which they appeal the most. And yes, inexperienced and out of shape people will not know trail etiquette, which will increase user conflicts.

I do believe there are trails that should not see increased traffic. Why is that so hard to understand? Overuse is the main reason trails get eroded and dumbed down. It isn't an easy problem to fix, but adding electric mopeds into the mix will make it worse. And, again, telling me to join the Sierra Club and sell my bikes is an ad hominem attack not an argument.

The industry coined the term "ebike" because electric moped will not sell. I think they are a great transportation tool, and there are trail systems where they may be incorporated without issue. But, on many if not most trail systems they will lead to increased user conflict and very likely increased trail damage. Feel free to write another multi-quote post, but don't expect me to respond until you start presenting arguments.

hig4s

really well you said "Personally I don't feel like we need pedal assisted bikes on MTB trails. I think mountain biking should be all about sweat and muscles" So lets take away chair lifts and let people sweat and muscle their bikes to the top.

As far as your age, I'm betting you are not that old and as you get older assist will be more welcome. At 58 I can no longer do what I use to, but would still like to spend a day or more having fun on the trails. I don't use an ebike yet, but I see it comming. Either that or I will have to give up riding anything but flat trails.

Gallo

I have no issues with them but am not sure I would ride one. At 52 I am behind a couple of 60 year olds on climbs and ahead of a whole bunch of folks as well younger and older