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Skills practice?

Old 07-27-16, 04:22 PM
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Skills practice?

Hey y'all,

My wife&I are getting more and more into mtn biking for our recreational riding. Our skills are improving as we get more miles in: picking our way up and down rocky/rutted hillsides without losing balance is something we are ok with now, but had a lot of trouble a few months ago.

However, there's one trail near where we live that has us completely beat. It's called Martha's Grove in Sycamore Canyon (here's a pov vid -- that's not me!!)
The problem is that there's a whole bunch of like foot-high dropoffs, that land in pretty uneven ground where it's hard to not get the front wheel trapped in a rut or stuck on a rock. Plus with the sheer dropoff on the right side the whole way, and the wife crashing almost off the edge once, when we try to take them, we are too slow&cautious, end up nearly endoing.

I know we need to take them faster, to get the front wheel to touch down further from the step and get less pitch downwards, but I think we need to be able to work up to it.

Any ideas how to find other areas where we can practice step-downs of varying heights and work our way up?

Any ideas about exercises to improve technical skill generally also welcome...
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Old 07-27-16, 05:48 PM
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Great questions! I intend to listen in here because I'm a roadie who has recently switched to mountain biking for at least some of my riding and I'm still pretty pathetic at this, quite distinct, sport.

If I may, I'd like to add a question: how do you keep the front end of the bike from floating up on steep climbs? I'm very fit and climbs in and of themselves are not an issue for me; but the technique on a MTB certainly is! It seems that no matter how much I try to move forward to weight the front end I can't seem to keep it from rising up.

I've found that where I've tackled really technical trails I've had to back off a bit and go in search of trails that were a bit more sensible for me at this point.
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Old 07-27-16, 06:09 PM
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#1. 1992 is calling the dude in the video. They want his super narrow handlebar back.
#2. I had that same ****ty fork in the past, hopefully he has seen the light and ditched that flexy POS
#3. For skills practice instruction the cheapest route is "ride lots." Second cheapest would be to buy Lee's book (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004D2BD1Q...&btkr=1#navbar). Or, just attend one of his clinics Lee Likes Bikes
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Old 07-28-16, 07:57 AM
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Go you YouTube and check out Global Mountain Bike Network. It's a channel that puts out a ton of 'how to' and tips on riding. They're not all gold, but they have some very good pointers and I think the videos are fairly short and entertaining (plus, you know, British accents).

Disclaimer: I'm a hack. BUT, I have two approaches which have increased my joy of what you are describing (mild drop offs):

Straight and fast: if it's a fairly straight and fairly fast line - as in you don't need to immediately turn hard or pick a critical line to survive the next obstacle - lean back as your wheel gets to the edge of the drop so that your weight pulls back on the bars a bit and you're more inclined to have both wheels land at the same time, which I find is the safest way to ride. By 'lean back' I mean get your butt out of the saddle and behind it. Your center of mass should be behind the bottom bracket, arms almost straight. This not the same technique as popping a wheelie by preloading your front fork by putting your weight on it then jerking backwards (think little kid wheelies). The former is a more stable way about it, the latter is supposedly a recipe for imbalance (so people tell me). This is covered in one of the videos GMBN made.

Technical: when I have to make the drop then immediately make a decision/drastic line change it's all about getting my butt off the saddle, behind the saddle, and below the saddle. Getting my center of mass as low as possible has been a night and day revelation. It was difficult to comfortably do this at first. I'd clip 'the boys' on my way back in the saddle after the drop a few times and that was not fun. A dropper post solved my problems. For my trails it was a godsend. That may or may not be something you look into.

Re-reading this the two techniques sound kind of similar. I think the main difference is when I'm going fast wanting both to hit at the same time, my butt is way back there but I'm still quite upright with my arms extended. When I'm doing a front tire first drop my butt is way back there (and low), but my torso is much more horizontal and my arms are very bent so when the front wheel drops I can make up the change in my arms without slingshotting myself over the bars.

Man, that's harder to describe than I thought. Ha. Hopefully it helps?? And like I said, YouTube has TONS of pretty good videos on technique, tips, etc. Good luck! Sweet trail...
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Old 07-28-16, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Scarbo
Great questions! I intend to listen in here because I'm a roadie who has recently switched to mountain biking for at least some of my riding and I'm still pretty pathetic at this, quite distinct, sport.

If I may, I'd like to add a question: how do you keep the front end of the bike from floating up on steep climbs? I'm very fit and climbs in and of themselves are not an issue for me; but the technique on a MTB certainly is! It seems that no matter how much I try to move forward to weight the front end I can't seem to keep it from rising up.

I've found that where I've tackled really technical trails I've had to back off a bit and go in search of trails that were a bit more sensible for me at this point.
1) Spin don't mash.
2) Don't pull up on the bars. One drill is to push the bars with your hands open, that way you can't pull.
3) Shift to the front of the saddle.
4) Chew you stem! Literally, get your face down so you're almost on the stem.

And lastly, have you looked at bike fit? Bikes more than ~5 years old were designed around ~100mm stems, putting a short stem on them just lightens the front. The trend is toward short stems, but you need a long-reach frame designed to really use a 50mm stem.
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Old 07-28-16, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Scarbo
If I may, I'd like to add a question: how do you keep the front end of the bike from floating up on steep climbs? I'm very fit and climbs in and of themselves are not an issue for me; but the technique on a MTB certainly is! It seems that no matter how much I try to move forward to weight the front end I can't seem to keep it from rising up.
I find this too, it's frustrating because for the steepest climbs I want to stand up, which would give me more power and move weight forward, but it usually ends up de-weighting the rear wheel and I spin out.

I like gsa's suggestion of open palms on the handlebar to make sure you're not pulling up, and 'chewing your stem'. I'll be experimenting with those.

Also I would say make sure your seat is high. Lacking a dropper post to this point, we sometimes stop and adjust our seat height -- low for descending (see Bikernator's advice about getting low), full-height for climbing
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Old 07-28-16, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by YourMomApproves
#1. 1992 is calling the dude in the video. They want his super narrow handlebar back.
#2. I had that same ****ty fork in the past, hopefully he has seen the light and ditched that flexy POS
#3. For skills practice instruction the cheapest route is "ride lots." Second cheapest would be to buy Lee's book (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004D2BD1Q...&btkr=1#navbar). Or, just attend one of his clinics Lee Likes Bikes
#1 I know, right? I had the same reaction. First time I rode a 29er it was a test-ride of a Niner, and that was my biggest reaction, that my arms felt a mile wide! The bars on my hardtail are fairly wide.

#3, thx for the reco, that book looks interesting, I might order a copy.
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Old 07-28-16, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bikernator
Go you YouTube and check out Global Mountain Bike Network. It's a channel that puts out a ton of 'how to' and tips on riding. They're not all gold, but they have some very good pointers and I think the videos are fairly short and entertaining (plus, you know, British accents).

Disclaimer: I'm a hack. BUT, I have two approaches which have increased my joy of what you are describing (mild drop offs):
Thx, that's good advice that I'll study. I am aware that lower seats and weight moved back is good for descending, as I mentioned sometimes we temporarily lower our seats for a descent. The wife has tried a dropper post on a friend's bike and really wants to get one.

I'll check out the GMBN videos, are they a mountain version of the same british guys that do I think it's called GBN? I've seen a bunch of those.
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Old 07-28-16, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
1) Spin don't mash.
2) Don't pull up on the bars. One drill is to push the bars with your hands open, that way you can't pull.
3) Shift to the front of the saddle.
4) Chew you stem! Literally, get your face down so you're almost on the stem.
.
Those are good tips, popping up the front end on steep climbs is also a problem I have!
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Old 07-28-16, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
1) Spin don't mash.
2) Don't pull up on the bars. One drill is to push the bars with your hands open, that way you can't pull.
3) Shift to the front of the saddle.
4) Chew you stem! Literally, get your face down so you're almost on the stem.

And lastly, have you looked at bike fit? Bikes more than ~5 years old were designed around ~100mm stems, putting a short stem on them just lightens the front. The trend is toward short stems, but you need a long-reach frame designed to really use a 50mm stem.

Thanks so much for these tips! I'll give them a try next time I go out on my MTB.
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Old 07-28-16, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Bikernator
Go you YouTube and check out Global Mountain Bike Network. It's a channel that puts out a ton of 'how to' and tips on riding. They're not all gold, but they have some very good pointers and I think the videos are fairly short and entertaining (plus, you know, British accents).

Disclaimer: I'm a hack. BUT, I have two approaches which have increased my joy of what you are describing (mild drop offs):

Straight and fast: if it's a fairly straight and fairly fast line - as in you don't need to immediately turn hard or pick a critical line to survive the next obstacle - lean back as your wheel gets to the edge of the drop so that your weight pulls back on the bars a bit and you're more inclined to have both wheels land at the same time, which I find is the safest way to ride. By 'lean back' I mean get your butt out of the saddle and behind it. Your center of mass should be behind the bottom bracket, arms almost straight. This not the same technique as popping a wheelie by preloading your front fork by putting your weight on it then jerking backwards (think little kid wheelies). The former is a more stable way about it, the latter is supposedly a recipe for imbalance (so people tell me). This is covered in one of the videos GMBN made.

Technical: when I have to make the drop then immediately make a decision/drastic line change it's all about getting my butt off the saddle, behind the saddle, and below the saddle. Getting my center of mass as low as possible has been a night and day revelation. It was difficult to comfortably do this at first. I'd clip 'the boys' on my way back in the saddle after the drop a few times and that was not fun. A dropper post solved my problems. For my trails it was a godsend. That may or may not be something you look into.

Re-reading this the two techniques sound kind of similar. I think the main difference is when I'm going fast wanting both to hit at the same time, my butt is way back there but I'm still quite upright with my arms extended. When I'm doing a front tire first drop my butt is way back there (and low), but my torso is much more horizontal and my arms are very bent so when the front wheel drops I can make up the change in my arms without slingshotting myself over the bars.

Man, that's harder to describe than I thought. Ha. Hopefully it helps?? And like I said, YouTube has TONS of pretty good videos on technique, tips, etc. Good luck! Sweet trail...

Thank you, also, for your help.

I must say that since I've been riding MTB I have a much greater appreciation and respect for the skills involved in the sport--skills I don't have yet!
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Old 07-28-16, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
Hey y'all,

My wife&I are getting more and more into mtn biking for our recreational riding. Our skills are improving as we get more miles in: picking our way up and down rocky/rutted hillsides without losing balance is something we are ok with now, but had a lot of trouble a few months ago.

However, there's one trail near where we live that has us completely beat. It's called Martha's Grove in Sycamore Canyon (here's a pov vid -- that's not me!!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJ6lcyFz_E The problem is that there's a whole bunch of like foot-high dropoffs, that land in pretty uneven ground where it's hard to not get the front wheel trapped in a rut or stuck on a rock. Plus with the sheer dropoff on the right side the whole way, and the wife crashing almost off the edge once, when we try to take them, we are too slow&cautious, end up nearly endoing.

I know we need to take them faster, to get the front wheel to touch down further from the step and get less pitch downwards, but I think we need to be able to work up to it.

Any ideas how to find other areas where we can practice step-downs of varying heights and work our way up?

Any ideas about exercises to improve technical skill generally also welcome...
I am form SD as well. One thing is to get up off the seat and get your weight back and as low as you can in a crouch position. A dropper post is super helpful or lower your seat post before big descents. Guide the bike with your body weight. you can practice drops on the ranch house crossing in pq canyon. The north side of the bridge has a drop off and you can practice several times with out going far. You need speed but you need to be under control as well which is often a fine line. Ride with a group and get tip sdmtba has rides all the time. there are a ton of videos you can google but riding behind someone that knows what they are doing is often the best teacher. Riding is the best exercise to gain skills. I would be willing to show you the trails in pq if you want I am an intermediate rider
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Old 07-30-16, 12:48 PM
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Ahh what I wouldn't give for a nice smooth path like that.

You should look into a Hopey steering damper. It keeps your tire straight while you plow through anything.
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Old 07-30-16, 02:45 PM
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Gallo, thx for the tips. We ride canyonside all the time, I am only recently able to clear some of the bridge drops, I never thought about going back and just practicing them a lot.
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Old 07-30-16, 02:58 PM
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I spent an hour on one single drop and G-out that gave me pause, musta done that thang 20 times.

It's mine now
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Old 07-30-16, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by osco53
I spent an hour on one single drop and G-out that gave me pause, musta done that thang 20 times.

It's mine now
What's a G-out? A banked turn maybe?
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Old 07-30-16, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
Gallo, thx for the tips. We ride canyonside all the time, I am only recently able to clear some of the bridge drops, I never thought about going back and just practicing them a lot.
I am about a mile from the trailhead of canyonside so I ride it quite a bit as well. Doing one thing over and over builds confidence and a great way to improve. I think the sh@ts is a good practice run as well. Riding it will help on other trails. Saddle time and riding just a bit over your head will build skills.

btw we do a mid week night ride out of canyonside and have two groups typically. Both are no drop but to be in the fast group your are expected to at least try to keep up. The relaxed group is always willing to help new riders
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Old 07-31-16, 09:57 AM
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the sh@ts? Where/what is that?

what night is your group ride? Is that the same as the Poway Bicycle shop ride?
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Old 08-01-16, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
the sh@ts? Where/what is that?

what night is your group ride? Is that the same as the Poway Bicycle shop ride?
top of powerlines to the west on the multi use path behind the homes first left it goes down and up and you keep to the right and you will see a tower which is the first part of the ****s as its called there are two more sections and it drops into cobbles or to the duck pond if you will. It is a bit rough steep and has some sharp turns and you have to pay attention to your line. if you can ride this and gain confidence you can ride other places with confidence. It is not long. I am not sure if it is above your level or not but I f you are doing Marthas you should be able to do this as well

no we are the weds night ride a couple of our riders do the poway ride sometimes from what I understand we leave out of canyonside
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Old 08-01-16, 09:19 AM
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OK I have an idea where that is. We go up powerline from the end of Park Village to ride the Tunnels, I've seen the end of that MUP over there, never tried it out.
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Old 08-01-16, 09:37 AM
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On MountainBikeBill's map, is it Yellow (north ridge fire road) and Green (Cobbles)?
Los Penasquitos Canyon and Del Mar Mesa
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Old 08-02-16, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
On MountainBikeBill's map, is it Yellow (north ridge fire road) and Green (Cobbles)?
Los Penasquitos Canyon and Del Mar Mesa
yes the powerlines is the teal and the yellow is the sh@ts green is upper cobbles purple lower cobbles which pops out near waterfall

There are three distinct parts

tower

1 down pick a line watch your speed and stay out of the loose stuff carry speed over rise

2 quick and steep turns at the top dont look at where your riding look at where you are riding too pitch eases toward last turns carry speed up slight rise

3 toughest section loose bad lines and hard turns stay high and carry around banks and set up for next turn rinse repeat keep your eyes where you want to go again not where you are stay out of ruts

as you descend you can go straight across to lower cobbles or when you see a wood fence before the pond or the east side of it and you can take a right here and it is a fun trail called queens which will dump you out at upper cobbles which is the route I normally take and climb cobbles

at the top you have choices going straight under the bridge takes you to a new trail called appendix this is for me a ride up and back to the bridge

from the bridge as you face west you can go right or left

right takes you on the street and you can ride it to Rancho Toyon and take a right. past the last house there is a trail on the other side of the horse fence this will take you on the mup toward powerline.

If you go left it will take you toward side hill and dump you just east of wagon wheel

There are allot of trails out there MTB bills is ok but old and there are many trails in the tunnels that are forever closed and many other trails not listed

Last edited by Gallo; 08-02-16 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 08-04-16, 03:55 PM
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We went out today and found the entrance to the sh1ts, dropping in to the right under the leg of that power tower. We are NOT ready for that trail! After a couple hundred yards when we saw that snaking downhill, we just turned around.
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Old 08-05-16, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Scarbo
Great questions! I intend to listen in here because I'm a roadie who has recently switched to mountain biking for at least some of my riding and I'm still pretty pathetic at this, quite distinct, sport.

If I may, I'd like to add a question: how do you keep the front end of the bike from floating up on steep climbs? I'm very fit and climbs in and of themselves are not an issue for me; but the technique on a MTB certainly is! It seems that no matter how much I try to move forward to weight the front end I can't seem to keep it from rising up.

I've found that where I've tackled really technical trails I've had to back off a bit and go in search of trails that were a bit more sensible for me at this point.
Good tips from others about body position…I want to add that if your bar is too high due to too many spacers under the stem and/or a riser bar, you need to get it level or even better, 1-1.5 inches below the saddle height. If you look at pros' XC bikes, the bars are super low, some racers even get negative rise stems to lower the bar and help with steep climbs. This is way too much for joe average. It also make for sketchy descending if too low. Just lose a few spacers or switch to a flat bar.
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Old 08-05-16, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
Hey y'all,

My wife&I are getting more and more into mtn biking for our recreational riding. Our skills are improving as we get more miles in: picking our way up and down rocky/rutted hillsides without losing balance is something we are ok with now, but had a lot of trouble a few months ago.

However, there's one trail near where we live that has us completely beat. It's called Martha's Grove in Sycamore Canyon (here's a pov vid -- that's not me!!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJ6lcyFz_E The problem is that there's a whole bunch of like foot-high dropoffs, that land in pretty uneven ground where it's hard to not get the front wheel trapped in a rut or stuck on a rock. Plus with the sheer dropoff on the right side the whole way, and the wife crashing almost off the edge once, when we try to take them, we are too slow&cautious, end up nearly endoing.

I know we need to take them faster, to get the front wheel to touch down further from the step and get less pitch downwards, but I think we need to be able to work up to it.



Any ideas how to find other areas where we can practice step-downs of varying heights and work our way up?

Any ideas about exercises to improve technical skill generally also welcome...
Good advice from others. The best and fastest way to learn is take a lesson or two on how to do it. A coach will give you instant feed back. Since you're in SD, this group will set you up right: https://sandiegomountainbikeskills.com or if you want to come up to OC, https://nondotadventures.com/skills-clinic-august/ is holding an Intermediate Skills Clinic August 13th. OK, for my tips. keep the bike rolling, look past the drop or feature. If you look at it, you will hesitate. Don't pull back or up on your bar on a drop, stay loose and push the bar forward like a shopping cart. Don't slide your butt back, make the bike come forward then retract in back under you. On descents, I like to stay loose, have elbows out, have my weight on the pedals ("heavy feet") and a light grip ("light hands"), weight centered over the bottom bracket. This is called the Attack Position. Look it up on youtube.
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