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Old 06-17-05, 05:02 AM   #1
oswald
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LX 2004 V-brake vs. Magura HS33

Hi,

What do you think? Which is better? LX V-brake or Magura HS33 ?
In terms of:

1. stopping power
2. durability
3. service/ calibration
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Old 06-17-05, 10:44 AM   #2
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1. Maguras
2. Maguras
3. Maguras. V brakes are probably easier to set up initially, but once you have Maguras set up, you won't have to alter them again.
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Old 06-17-05, 11:20 PM   #3
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Hydro rim brakes are a waste of money. If you want decent rim brakes just get a set of Avid Arch Rivals. If you want more power - Go disc
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Old 06-18-05, 05:12 AM   #4
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Hydraulic rim brakes are certainly not a waste of money. I'd like to see you say that after your disc tabs snap off your frame from riding trials with a rear disc. Yes, there are very good V brakes, with high quality cables and pads would be of similar performance to Maguras, but have a similar (if not higher) price. The poster was asking which is better: an LX V brake, or a Magura HS33, and I don't think anyone would deny that a Magura wins, hands down.
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Old 06-18-05, 03:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by matheprat
I'd like to see you say that after your disc tabs snap off your frame from riding trials with a rear disc.
First Do the words "LIFETIME WARRANTY" mean anything to you? Secondly I defy you to show me one example of where this has EVER happend
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Originally Posted by matheprat
Yes, there are very good V brakes, with high quality cables and pads would be of similar performance to Maguras, but have a similar (if not higher) price.
$112 per wheel as opposed to $90 for the set? Don't make me laugh. Hell for $3 less per wheel he could be getting hydraulic discs for that kind of cheese
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Originally Posted by matheprat
The poster was asking which is better: an LX V brake, or a Magura HS33, and I don't think anyone would deny that a Magura wins, hands down.
I'm telling him that his money is better spent elsewhere as the only people who use Hydro rim brakes anymore are Trials riders and even they have been making the move to disc
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Old 06-18-05, 03:59 PM   #6
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Never heard of a disc tab snapping.
The welds which keep the tab on the frame are pretty beefy, maybe if they are made out of glass?
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Old 06-18-05, 04:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by phantomcow2
Never heard of a disc tab snapping.
The welds which keep the tab on the frame are pretty beefy, maybe if they are made out of glass?
Watch it'll be on some Sports Authority or Canadian Tire POS
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Old 06-18-05, 04:03 PM   #8
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Ive seen alot of trials riders using the BB7s. Simple and cheap to repair when something breaks.
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Old 06-18-05, 04:18 PM   #9
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Simple and cheap to repair when something breaks.
That's why I preach the virtues of them
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Old 06-18-05, 04:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn
First Do the words "LIFETIME WARRANTY" mean anything to you? Secondly I defy you to show me one example of where this has EVER happend$112 per wheel as opposed to $90 for the set? Don't make me laugh. Hell for $3 less per wheel he could be getting hydraulic discs for that kind of cheeseI'm telling him that his money is better spent elsewhere as the only people who use Hydro rim brakes anymore are Trials riders and even they have been making the move to disc
Yes, the words "LIFETIME WARRANTY" do mean something to me, but sadly all I got on my Pace RC-250t was 3 months...I don't see where your argument is going here.

I obviously cannot physically show you it happens, as it hasnt to me. It happens. The rear wheel basically acts like a lever, applying more pressure to a disc mount than a rim mount when on the back wheel. And how many trials bikes do you see with a disc on the rear?

Here in the UK, you can pick up a set of Magura HS33s for around £80. I know when I was looking into new brakes for my bike, they worked out at a similar price, if not better to a set of Vs. I looked at XTR, and some Avids, can't remember the name. A single Magura brake costs £40 here, which is slightly less than the price of 2 XTR V brake calipers (eg, one wheel). That's without the lever or cable. Admitedly, they may not be the same as what the orrigonal poster was after, but I doubt there is a huge price diference.

I honestly believe that the difference in price between Maguras and Vs is easilly worth it. Maybe we get them cheaper over here?

However, there is absolutely NO need to jump down my throat, simply because you believe all hydraulic rim brakes are a "waste of money". Everyone's entitled to thier own opinion, but don't make sweeping statements when they are clearly not true.
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Old 06-18-05, 05:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by matheprat
Yes, the words "LIFETIME WARRANTY" do mean something to me, but sadly all I got on my Pace RC-250t was 3 months...I don't see where your argument is going here.
My Specialized frame has a lifetime warranty so even in the impropable event that it did happen I wouldn't be out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat

I obviously cannot physically show you it happens, as it hasnt to me. It happens. The rear wheel basically acts like a lever, applying more pressure to a disc mount than a rim mount when on the back wheel.
So I'm supposed to just take your word on this? Disc brake mounts are designed to be just that Mounts for disc brakes - your arguement has no basis in fact
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
. A single Magura brake costs £40 here, which is slightly less than the price of 2 XTR V brake calipers (eg, one wheel). That's without the lever or cable. Admitedly, they may not be the same as what the orrigonal poster was after, but I doubt there is a huge price diference.
I clearly showed the price difference in the links provided
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
I honestly believe that the difference in price between Maguras and Vs is easilly worth it. Maybe we get them cheaper over here?
I don't since discs work so much better and aren't subject to the problems that all rim brakes have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
However, there is absolutely NO need to jump down my throat, simply because you believe all hydraulic rim brakes are a "waste of money". Everyone's entitled to thier own opinion, but don't make sweeping statements when they are clearly not true.
Compared to discs they are in fact a waste of money. If the original poster doesn't have disc tabs on his frame then perhaps they may be of some benefit, however for most people the maginal gain isn't worth the extra expense
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Old 06-18-05, 05:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn
My Specialized frame has a lifetime warranty so even in the impropable event that it did happen I wouldn't be out.

And mind doesn't. So I would. I fail to see where your argument is leading.

So I'm supposed to just take your word on this? Disc brake mounts are designed to be just that Mounts for disc brakes - your arguement has no basis in fact

Yes, disc brake mounts on a DH bike, for example, are obviously meant for disc calipers. I wouldn't use anything else. But I ask again, how many trials bikes do you see with a rear disc? You should take my word for it, as it's true. Trials bikes are subject to entirely different forces than DH bikes. The time spend on the rear wheel is significantly more, and due to the wheel acting like a lever, any of these forces will be increased on the disc mount, being closer to the hub. The same way if you use a spanner with a longer handle, you can get more torque. Obviously the tabs wouldn't just snap off (as if they were made of glass as someone posted...), but over time they WILL come off. I would have thought the huge lack of trials bikes on the market with rear discs would be evidence enough.

I clearly showed the price difference in the links provided
And I can clearly show the price difference I was stating here: www.wiggle.co.uk. Again, where is your argument going

I don't since discs work so much better and aren't subject to the problems that all rim brakes have.

Discs do work better in wet and muddy conditions, and arn't subject to problems like buckled wheels etc. However, discs do not work "so much better" in all conditions, as I have allready mentioned.

Compared to discs they are in fact a waste of money. If the original poster doesn't have disc tabs on his frame then perhaps they may be of some benefit, however for most people the maginal gain isn't worth the extra expense
So they do have benefits now? I thought you were arguing they are "totally useless"? There is also more than a marginal gain between Maguras and LX V brakes.
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Old 06-19-05, 09:19 AM   #13
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I have heard of disc tabs breaking when riding TRIALS. I don't think many people could brake a disc tab riding CC.
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Old 06-19-05, 09:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I have heard of disc tabs breaking when riding TRIALS
Raiyn believes otherwise...
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Old 06-19-05, 09:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn
Watch it'll be on some Sports Authority or Canadian Tire POS
wow, you guys get canti down in florida?!?
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Old 06-19-05, 12:21 PM   #16
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Hey there,

1. So in the end, I was only asking about LX Vs and Magura HS33.
The question is: overall, considering the 3 points i layed down, disregarding the price, etc, you would say Magura is better, right?
Forgot to mention: for Cross Country only.

2.And while we're at it, what do you think are the best rims for Cross Country?
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Old 06-19-05, 12:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oswald
So in the end, I was only asking about LX Vs and Magura HS33.
The question is: overall, considering the 3 points i layed down, disregarding the price, etc, you would say Magura is better, right?
I assume you read my first post?

As for rims, I'm not really sure. I've heard good things about Mavic D521s, and what ever model replaced them.
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Old 06-19-05, 03:41 PM   #18
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The model that replaced them is called the EX721, ive heard stories of disc brake mounts ripping off the frame when doing trials aswell, ive heard at least 2 stories of this happening under heavy braking.
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Old 06-19-05, 04:31 PM   #19
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rims for XC? Well if your a light rider and looking at Rim brakes i would look into Sun 0 deg lites, im using them now and got them for cheap. They are very light at just over 400 grams, with a very nice machined braking surface. Cambria bike sells them. the DT swiss rims also are good for XC. But really it has to do with your weight here, light rims are popular for XC but you have to take into consideration your weight as well. I think a 250pound rider would not be happy with my wheels
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Old 06-20-05, 12:31 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
So they do have benefits now? I thought you were arguing they are "totally useless"? There is also more than a marginal gain between Maguras and LX V brakes.
You show me where I said "totally useless" I did say "waste of money" and I stand by that statement especially considering that this guy isn't riding trials
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyota200x
I have heard of disc tabs breaking when riding TRIALS. I don't think many people could brake a disc tab riding CC.
Trials is one thing, but even there it certainly doesn't happen often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
Raiyn believes otherwise...
I believe otherwise about what? The fact that very few people could break a disc tab in XC riding? If PWRDbyTRD can't break one on his Tennesee hills then it's a HIGHLY unlikely event
Quote:
Originally Posted by revmonkey
wow, you guys get canti down in florida?!?
No, but I realize that folks do come here from other countries, and odds are it's usually either X-mart or Canadian Tire
Quote:
Originally Posted by oswald
Hey there,

1. So in the end, I was only asking about LX Vs and Magura HS33.
The question is: overall, considering the 3 points i layed down, disregarding the price, etc, you would say Magura is better, right?
Forgot to mention: for Cross Country only.

2.And while we're at it, what do you think are the best rims for Cross Country?
  1. I still say the hydraulic rim brakes are a waste of money. The benefits over conventional rim brakes are marginal at best (they're STILL rim brakes) and for that kind of scratch you could get a set of DISC brakes which are FAR superior for XC/FR/DH riding.
  2. Depends on how much you want to spend
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Old 06-20-05, 05:46 AM   #21
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Trials is one thing, but even there it certainly doesn't happen often.

So you're admitting that it DOES in fact happen now? I'm confused, I thought you were adament that it never would? And when was I ever talking about anything other than trials?

  1. I still say the hydraulic rim brakes are a waste of money. The benefits over conventional rim brakes are marginal at best (they're STILL rim brakes) and for that kind of scratch you could get a set of DISC brakes which are FAR superior for XC/FR/DH riding.
  2. Depends on how much you want to spend
[/QUOTE]

They are a CLEAR improovement in braking power etc. The massive volume of trials riders using them as opposted to Vs is evidence of that. And here in the UK, you can get a pair of HS33s for £80, which if you were lucky and found one on sale, is the price of a SINGLE Hayes HFX9. On another note, how did you come to the conclusion discs are "FAR superior" than rim brakes for XC? If they were that superior, surely every single XC racer would have them?
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Old 06-20-05, 04:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
So you're admitting that it DOES in fact happen now? I'm confused, I thought you were adamant that it never would? And when was I ever talking about anything other than trials?
You're persistent I'll give you that. Disc tabs will not break under NORMAL use. Trials is not NORMAL use. Here's a clue Sparky the original poster isn't a trials rider
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat

They are a CLEAR improovement in braking power etc. The massive volume of trials riders using them as opposted to Vs is evidence of that.
No, the only reason they use hydraulics over V's is because Hydraulics don't rely on hand strength to keep them actuated which is a big thing when you're using your bike as a pogo stick, but not so valuable in a XC situation as you're not attempting to keep the brakes locked continually That's the main reason. It isn't because they're some miraculous thing
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
And here in the UK, you can get a pair of HS33s for £80, which if you were lucky and found one on sale, is the price of a SINGLE Hayes HFX9.
Well try getting a set of Hopes on that side then as they're probably cheaper over there than they are here. Here Hayes are cheaper
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
On another note, how did you come to the conclusion discs are "FAR superior" than rim brakes for XC? If they were that superior, surely every single XC racer would have them?
Here we go again. Everytime I turn around I have to repost this:
Why are discs better than rim brakes?

The difference is friction. Friction is of course the force acting against the momentum. Friction under all circumstances will be greater in a disc system than a rim system. Not even ceramic rims and their pads can compare to the sustainable friction of a disc system. Not to mention the effects of inclement conditions on rim brakes.

Let's start by taking a look at the physics involved. There's a law of physics that states how an object in motion has a certain amount of energy due to its momentum. This energy is called kinetic energy. In order for this object in motion to stop or slow down, it must lose some or all of its kinetic energy. It does this by converting the kinetic energy to heat.

It's pretty simple. At your wheel you have a metal disc and a set of friction pads. The pads squeeze or push onto the metal. When this happens, you create friction. Friction generates heat, of course. Since the wheel is turning, then the kinetic energy of your momentum is converted to heat at this point and discharged harmlessly into the atmosphere (with a slight loss of pad material), and your bike slows down. The faster it is going, the more heat is needed to stop it. The more pressure you apply to the pads, the faster it can discharge the kinetic energy. The disc aids in the discharge of the heat generated. The surface area of the rotor allows heat to dissipate more quickly.
Rim brakes work well, but they have a hard time shedding heat well enough to prevent fade when used really hard. Brake fade occurs when the brake overheats dramatically; braking power is vastly reduced. The fact that rubber compound rim brake pads can only sustain so much heat and pressure before they break loose is another key point as is the fact that disc pads, being made of a more durable substance, are not prone to the same failures.
Facts
  • Disc brakes handle heat load and dissipation better than calipers.
  • They don't transfer the heat generated directly to the rim, like calipers.
  • Disc rotors are MUCH cheaper to replace than an entire rim (as low as $15).
  • As far as being able to lock a wheel: yes you can lock a wheel much easier with a disc than you can a caliper of any type, however if your brakes are PROPERLY setup, you also have greater modulation with less effort than any rim brake system ever invented.
The only reason many XC racers don't use them is to save a bit of weight
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Old 06-21-05, 02:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Raiyn
You're persistent I'll give you that. Disc tabs will not break under NORMAL use. Trials is not NORMAL use. Here's a clue Sparky the original poster isn't a trials rider

Whether he rides trials or not doesn't alter the value of Maguras. And I would have said trials riding is pretty normal use for a trials bike? Would you not?

No, the only reason they use hydraulics over V's is because Hydraulics don't rely on hand strength to keep them actuated which is a big thing

If it's such a "big" thing, surely the brakes ARE worth the money?

Well try getting a set of Hopes on that side then as they're probably cheaper over there than they are here. Here Hayes are cheaper

Hope's are probably more expensve than Hayes over here. Hope mini: £120. I seem to remember C2s were even more when they were being sold. The cheapest discs are the low end shimano...

The only reason many XC racers don't use them is to save a bit of weight
I'm not sure why you felt the need to describe how a disc brake works, I'm aware of that. And your last line only prooved the point I was making.
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Old 06-22-05, 04:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by matheprat
Whether he rides trials or not doesn't alter the value of Maguras. And I would have said trials riding is pretty normal use for a trials bike? Would you not?
Your crainial density is astounding. The guy ISN'T A TRIALS RIDER!
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
If it's such a "big" thing, surely the brakes ARE worth the money?
Gee are you in politics? Or a member of the press? those are the first two groups I think of when I think of people who quote out of context. This is what I actually said: (bold added to show omitted part)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn
No, the only reason they use hydraulics over V's is because Hydraulics don't rely on hand strength to keep them actuated which is a big thing when you're using your bike as a pogo stick, but not so valuable in a XC situation as you're not attempting to keep the brakes locked continually
Next time if you plan on attacking go for what I actually said instead of taking the Fox News approach
Quote:
Originally Posted by matheprat
And your last line only prooved the point I was making.
The hell it did. We're talking about someone that is RIDING XC nowhere did he say that he was intending to RACE.
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Old 06-23-05, 03:46 AM   #25
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Your crainial density is astounding. The guy ISN'T A TRIALS RIDER!

Whether he is a trials rider or not does not alter your comment about hydraulic rim brakes being a waste of money.

Gee are you in politics? Or a member of the press? those are the first two groups I think of when I think of people who quote out of context. This is what I actually said: (bold added to show omitted part) Next time if you plan on attacking go for what I actually said instead of taking the Fox News approach

Right. Whether I use your entire quote or not still justifies my argument. To keep you happy, I will do so: "No, the only reason they use hydraulics over V's is because Hydraulics don't rely on hand strength to keep them actuated which is a big thing when you're using your bike as a pogo stick, but not so valuable in a XC situation as you're not attempting to keep the brakes locked continually" is what you said. Yes? I assume you are refering to trials riding when you mention "using your bike as a pogo stick"? Am I right? In which case, how can Maguras be a waste of money when they work very well for this "big thing"? About your comment on XC riding, see my reply above.

The hell it did. We're talking about someone that is RIDING XC nowhere did he say that he was intending to RACE.
And nowhere did he mention wanting discs. I believe he was talking about LX Vs v Magura HS33s.

I assume by the way all your arguments have degenerated into personal insults you have nothing left to stand on. If you have nothing to add to the first post about the comparison between LX V brakes and Magura HS33s, then please, do not post. If you wish to insult me further, please do so via PM or e-mail, not on the board. I'm sure no-one wants to read it.
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