mx_599

Just wondering...

Since much of the mountain biking advances is borrowed technology from motorcycles, why aren't manufacturers making tapered roller bearings for headset designs??

Or are they?

The only con I see is slightly heavier, but non-XC should reap benefits of this stronger design

anyone know?

harov3

Now youv'e done it! I give it 6 weeks max before it hits the market.

mx_599

one other slight drawback...well, maybe not. but underneath the stem clamp could be a spanner nut to load the bearing rather than the stem having to provide the "clamping" force. this would require a threaded part on stem. even just leaving the clamping the way it is now, it seems like they could have roller bearings rather then ball bearings. especially with the dual crowns becoming more common place.

Brian

I've seen roller bearing headsets, but I'm not sure that tapered roller bearings would be a selling point. The loads placed on a headset are different than the loads placed on automotive wheel bearings.

phantomcow2

Taper roller bearings are really not necessary for a bicycle headset. Angular contact does the trick very well.
Like expatriate said, headsets see different loads than automotive wheels, or machine tool spindles. THese are situations where taper roller bearings are ideal. Also, you would really need to modify the conventional headset to accommodate the taper.

swifferman

I haven't seen too many headset failures so what we're running now is probably fine.

Brian

What about the DH, BMX, and tandem crowd? Don't we count?

harov3

Tapered roller bearing are used for the headsets of some motorcycles. In the 70's the hot tip for improving the steering of your Yamasuzhoonda was to replace the ball type head stem bearings with tapered roller bearings. No they are not necessary for bicycles, the loads dont justify it, but doubtless someone will think they need them. Modifications to the headset are unnecessary, all that would be required is a specific set of bearing cups and a means of tightening the bearings.

Where have you been hiding Phantomcow?

phantomcow2

I've been hiding in Foo, general cycling, mechanics.
As for the headset, the out of the ordinary system that would be required would make the price of the taper roller bearing headset way the hell high.
I could see where they might be handy for heavy duty tandems though.

dirtbikedude

Hope, Woodman, Tioga, Race Face and FSA (all though RF & FSA call them angular bearings) have headsets with tapered bearings. Hope, Woodman and Tioga(not sure they make them any more) have roller, FSA and RF may just have a tapered surface the bearing ride on but I have not taken either RF nor FSA head set apart in years. Hope, Woodman and Tioga have been out for a while but because they are not "BIG" companies and have very little advertisements not many riders know about their stuff other then their main lines.

I have headsets from both Hope(need a European connection to get) and Woodman and they are the best I have ever used.

DBD

Brian

If I recall correctly, the bearings are angular contact, but the rollers themselves are not tapered.

mx_599

No...not autos...why does everyone keep mentioning auto wheel bearings??

if they are used succesfully in motorcycles, it seems only logical that for some of the tremendous forces seen by modern movements of DH or FR or some of the guys who have no respect for their body who ride off cliffs to see if they might make it or not...

lets be honest...some of the DH bikes are going towards an "engineless rolling motorcycle" appearance

you shouldn't need failures for advancements or changes in head design. i believe, without question, that a more durable and a head junction with LESS flex is achievable with a taper roller bearing.

think about the design....


No...?

dirtbikedude

The Hope, Woodman and Tioga use tapered rollers (I have all three) and not just an agular contact. The RF and FSA you may be correct. The Hope has them on both top and bottom cups where the Woodman and Tioga just use them in the bottom.

DBD

Brian

Maybe Cannondale can jump on the bandwagon. There's room in the big tube, and the Heashok already uses the needle bearings.

mx_599

Wait...are you sure you don't mean THRUST bearings?? I have some WOOdman things and I remember seeing a HS with a thrust bearing as well.

Angular doesn't matter...I believe they all are. If they were only radial, then nothing would be supporting the up/down force.

mx_599

once made and put into use, price shouldn't be a problem at all

mx_599

are you serious??? some of the stuff I've seen on this site?? the people would have had a better chance of doing with a rolling motocross bike!!

dirtbikedude

The Woodman I have has tapered rollers. I know they have some new pantent pending design that (I think, not totally sure of) has both. I would have to check.

DBD

mx_599

I don't mean to be antagonistic to any of you...just wanted your opinions and to find out if there are tapered roller bearing HS out there. I guess there is? I didn't know this...but they will be my future HS

mx_599

Which one do you like better?? are they about the same...because I was thinking about the WOOdman one.

dirtbikedude

If you can get a hold of a Hope Enduro (older model) and do propper maintenence you will never have to replace it.

edit: We were typing at the same time but the answer to your question is the Hope. It seals out the elements better, is lighter AND you get to be one of the very, very few in the US to have one
DBD

mx_599

??
what about the one on their website? is this the one you have?

dirtbikedude

The Enduro was the predecessor to the one they have now. The new one uses cartridge bearings where as the Enduro used tapered rollers. Both are equally durable but I find the older Enduro to be a lot smoother. They had to stop making the Enduro because someone else had a patent on it and I have yet to find out who

DBD

harov3

Yep, I'm serious. The loads generated by anything even Bender does dont justify the use of tapered needle roller bearings, which it should be noted, will always be more expensive to manufacture due to the production process being more complex compared to a ball or roller bearing. A 220 kg motorcycle with another 150kg of rider and pillion landing after a mono will generate some serious forces and many of those were designed with and still run ball bearings in the headstem. Nobody I've seen is going to generate forces significantly greater than those, if at all greater. However, as I first said somebody will think they need them. They will have some advantages if correctly specified and installed. They would be longer lasting as you can adjust the slack out of a tapered needle roller bearing repeatedly, more so than a ball bearing set. They would be smoother. They would be very high on the bling scale. . They could be stronger depending on how they were specified, if the total load bearing surface of the needles was greater than the total load bearing surface of a ball set then the needles would be able to bear a greater load before crush failure or deformation. But its likely that the you would have put your face through the headset before you generate enough force to crush a set of ball bearings, or snapped your frame,forks,neck, etc... So back to the beginning, I dont think they are necessary but somebody will think they need them and lets face it, we all enjoy buying our bike new special bits, eh?

Brian

Haha. Bender. The human space shuttle.